[lnichols]

When the Pentagon (or was it NSA? If anyone is interested I could try and dig up the story...) wanted to make a super-secure phone, they took Android, modified it slightly and ended up with something way more secure than even iOS or Blackberries.

There is NOTHING inherently insecure in Android, as the FIPS certification some Android devices have achieved can attest to.

So would you be interested if RIM made a locked down, Android-based device designed with security and data protection in mind?

Nope because they have a secure device coming out that the work part can be locked down, and have its own app store while leaving the personal part alone with access to the regular store. Oh yeah and per the FIPS approval, which is very flexible and same one covers TabletOS 1.X through BB10, and any device with ARMv7 processor, Neutrino 6.6, and approved crypto kernel because they aren't modifying the micro kernel and the OS on top can change a lot and it will still be approved. Android being monolithic would have to be retested for FIPS with each new release of Android, where RIM has huge flexibility to make changes and not having to retest because of the QNX Neutrino architecture. BBOS7 was monolithic and each version had to be retested. RIM went the right way and is on the right path as having to secure each release of Android and repeating would just make the whole process slow and like BBOS, it would have just had better app support than BBOS.

[adamschuetze]

Apples going to fail cause they stopped innovating keep pumping out the same product in different sizes. People are gonna wake up sooner or later, lots already are.

I agree completely. In fact, I see Apple of 2012 as being in exactly the same position as RIM of 2007. A dominant market position. A stagnant product. And competitors rapidly changing their product (Windows Phone, BlackBerry 10) while they sit on their laurels. iOs hasn't changed in years, except for window dressing. I wonder how much longer consumers are going to take to figure it out.

The situation isn't exactly the same, I mean, Android owns what, 75% of the smartphone market? But Apple is rapidly running the risk of doing a RIM. Falling behind, becoming stodgy and irrelevant. At least in the North American market. Samsung has made great hay of this, with their series of TV spots that mock Apple users as being old and boring and out of touch with cool.

[kbz1960]

Actually RIM did think of this, and they considered it very seriously, so obviously they thought it a serious potential alternative. That certainly puts your sarcastic and condescending response in an embarrassing light.

Whatever righter of all wrong. That is exactly what my sarcastic post meant.

[Tre Lawrence]

I agree completely. In fact, I see Apple of 2012 as being in exactly the same position as RIM of 2007. A dominant market position. A stagnant product. And competitors rapidly changing their product (Windows Phone, BlackBerry 10) while they sit on their laurels. iOs hasn't changed in years, except for window dressing. I wonder how much longer consumers are going to take to figure it out.

The situation isn't exactly the same, I mean, Android owns what, 75% of the smartphone market? But Apple is rapidly running the risk of doing a RIM. Falling behind, becoming stodgy and irrelevant. At least in the North American market. Samsung has made great hay of this, with their series of TV spots that mock Apple users as being old and boring and out of touch with cool.

The obvious difference is that Apple has the advantage of being somewhat more diversified than RIM circa 2007.

[RubberChicken76]

So far RIM has been losing marketshare steadily. And #4 in the market could be fine if its a fourth place with 15 or 20% of the market. But Fourth place obviously isn't as great if its only 5% of the total market.

Marketshare is just that. Share of the market. The journalists always say "RIM has only 4% marketshare" but tend to forget that's 80 million bloody people using the product. 80 million! And the mobile market isn't even remotely saturated with smartphones yet. If it had peaked and RIM only had 4%, that would be one thing. But it's still growing!!!!

Once you're below ten percent marketshare, that's when developing for the platform doesn't any longer make sense for a lot of developers.

By who's criteria?

[richardat]

OP you are genius! Why didn't RIM think of that! Bravo and when does your CEO position start?




Oh sorry you're just another forum member with a bad idea. Carry on.

Actually RIM did think of this, and they considered it very seriously, so obviously they thought it a serious potential alternative. That certainly puts your sarcastic and condescending response in an embarrassing light.

Whatever righter of all wrong. That is exactly what my sarcastic post meant.

Oh OK. When you said "just another forum poster with a BAD idea", combined with your sarcastic insults in the first line, it sounded very much like you were belittling the idea. If you actually meant that it was an alternative that merited serious consideration, then your sarcasm becomes rather nonsensical. In any case, one certainly must be careful with sarcasm on the internet, even when well expressed! If you were really trying to commend the OP, or suggest that his suggestion had merit, there's probably better ways to express it!

[timmy t]

There is still so many new things that smart phones can be used for. Mobile payments, communications with other machines, etc. It is still fairly early in the game for smart phones and just like with HDTVs, the leaders can change from year to year. Was Samsung a leader in HDTVs when they first came out?
BB just has to keep most of its current customer base and I feel a lot of former users will be curious enough to look at them when BB10 comes out.
If a decent fraction of those people switch back, then RIM will be successful.
That is what RIM has over Microsoft. People see RIM as a smart phone manufacturer who fell behind in its offereings. People don't view Microsoft as a smartphone manufacturer or smartphone/tablet OS company.
RIM's main goal should be to stabilize its position in the market place in the first half of next year and that will give them a chance to claw their way back up the ladder.
It may take two or three or five years but it can be done.

[LuvULongTime]

This thread is full of so much trolling, especially from the iOS, Android, and WP8 crowd. I love the clairvoyance you all display. "People are clueless if they think BB10 will sell well". "BB10 will fail". LOL. Please tell me who will win the super bowl this year. Wouldn't you all be surprised (and disappointed) if BB10 caught on.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet. And don't expect her to any time soon.

[Zirak]

What part of 20-30-50 bucks worth of apps equals significant?
I lean the other direction from you, I see kids (definition of that is open, I am 45) get new devices and play with them like toys at Christmas, discarding them within months looking for a new toy.
I may argue the point of there being 2 major players also. Android owns the current marketshare, apple's share is a distant 2nd. I will show my Canadian stripes, Android gives up share, RIM ramps up to high teens, Apple stays stagnant and MS hovers just below 10.

[cjcampbell]

The obvious difference is that Apple has the advantage of being somewhat more diversified than RIM circa 2007.

With the acquisitions that RIM has made over the last few years, they are quite diversified. A lot of what they own helps with the new platform and components, but the great thing is, it is far more than that. They have an opportunity to expand into so much more.

[richardat]

This thread is full of so much trolling, especially from the iOS, Android, and WP8 crowd. I love the clairvoyance you all display. "People are clueless if they think BB10 will sell well". "BB10 will fail". LOL. Please tell me who will win the super bowl this year. Wouldn't you all be surprised (and disappointed) if BB10 caught on.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet. And don't expect her to any time soon.

There is something so disingenuous about accusing people of trolling and claiming "clairvoyance" because they predict BB10 won't do well, and then PREDICTING it will do well! LOL

I assume you would have the same criticism for statements like these:

BB10s gonna take a big chunk out of the top two in NA and will cotinue to dominate in other markets

Apples going to fail cause they stopped innovating keep pumping out the same product in different size

I did not even read ur entire thread because the post is completely wrong...BlackBerry Will be in the TOP Spot once again

apple is boring, its going to be RIM vs SAMSUNG

But actually, I think the vast majority of posters in this thread have been thoughtful, and undramatic. Few posters have said anything like what you claim, and those that did, provided elaboration as to why. There have been a few posts, like yours, which have consisted solely of bashing those posters, but their has also been a lot of discussion about various topics. I think most of the people in this thread should be proud of it.

[Masahiro]

There is something so disingenuous about accusing people of trolling and claiming "clairvoyance" because they predict BB10 won't do well, and then PREDICTING it will do well! LOL

I assume you would have the same criticism for statements like these:

BB10s gonna take a big chunk out of the top two in NA and will cotinue to dominate in other markets

Apples going to fail cause they stopped innovating keep pumping out the same product in different size

I did not even read ur entire thread because the post is completely wrong...BlackBerry Will be in the TOP Spot once again

apple is boring, its going to be RIM vs SAMSUNG

How exactly are those supposed to be "trolling" statements on a forum for BlackBerry enthusiasts?

[_BB10_]

Marketshare in the states not the world. There is so much more to the rest of the world than USA. Only the US media amd retailers seem to be oblivious to what RIM have been doing. And when bb10 takes off it will be the US behind and back pedalling to see the potential.

You win for most relevant post. The US media and Wall Street is not LISTENING to Thorsten nor are they WATCHING what's happening right now globally with developers and continued subscriber growth. If Wall Street would look past BlackBerry for what it was and look at BlackBerry for what it will be it would be painfully obvious how irrationally they are pricing the stock right now. But (in their defense) investors only care about the most recent quarter's results and projected growth. Obviously RIM's most recent quarters have been awful and it only looks to be getting worse to the ignorant trader not willing to spend the time digging into what's happening.

We have seen Thorsten appear in the media a dozen times since May 2012 and all his comments relating to automotive and the broader M2M market are completely dismissed. Interviewers just want to ask why BlackBerry doesn't have a large touch screen that can access Facebook. What happens when 60% of the world's cars connect to the NOC? Or when QNX Neutrino RTOS is deployed in healthcare, defense, home appliances, etc.? RECURRING SERVICE REVENUE. Tack on a 30x multiple accordingly.

And what about the oh-so-important American consumer? I can assure you, all the typical user wants is a flashy device that they can surf Twitter and Facebook on and BB10 will allow those types to surf until their heart is content. Spoiler alert: The smartphone has become a fashion accessory to a large cohort of individuals who will jump ship as soon as they see how sexy BB10 is. Remind me what that screen resolution is again? All of a sudden the iPhone doesn't feel as cool.

With respect to previous BlackBerry owners...the market is underestimating the sheer number of Android users who want nothing more than to return to their prided BlackBerry (they only left the platform because BlackBerry wouldn't double as a mobile computer). We could easily see a tectonic shift in market share when this group (myself included) returns to the platform.

Globally....we arrogant Americans like to conveniently forget that there are only another handful (billions) of people outside our borders with money and in most cases are more technologically savvy than us. RIM is already the #1 vendor in S. Africa, Indonesia, the Philippines, and huge in the UK, other parts of Asia, and Nigeria and Kenya. I wonder if anyone there is going to buy a BB10? Oh and I guess I didn't even mention how powerful BlackBerry Balance will be for the enterprise not to mention Mobile Fusion as an MDM solution (read: more service revenue).

Basically, anyone who doubts RIM right now can not see the forest through the trees and only 5 years from now will the world realize how ludicrous it was for RIM to have traded as low as $6.30. Good luck out there.

[cjcampbell]

When the Pentagon (or was it NSA? If anyone is interested I could try and dig up the story...) wanted to make a super-secure phone, they took Android, modified it slightly and ended up with something way more secure than even iOS or Blackberries.

There is NOTHING inherently insecure in Android, as the FIPS certification some Android devices have achieved can attest to.

So would you be interested if RIM made a locked down, Android-based device designed with security and data protection in mind?

You are wrong here. The Android devices that have been allowed are not what we can consider Android by popular standard. The US government chose Android because they "already allows people to tinker freely with its code". What is commercially available is, in fact, insecure hence the large number of reports of malware.

As for making their own version of Android... Why would you want that? Do you really want just one player in the market? Don't you want other OS's to push the envelope and force competitors to continue to evolve and create? Having just one, two, or even 3 players doesn't make sense. I welcome any and all that will innovate and show what can be done, otherwise we will all be forced to settle for the norm and what's "GOOD ENOUGH" as stated by yourself. I can't think of one single successful person ANYWHERE that got ahead by simply doing what's "good enough"!!

I think it's time you pulled your head out of your a$$ and realized that there are those who are not happy with the norm or what is simply good enough. Some of us want better. (I don't know if BB10 is going to be better as it's not out yet but I welcome the opportunity to find out)

[texazzpete]

How exactly are those supposed to be "trolling" statements on a forum for BlackBerry enthusiasts?

Does being a 'blackberry enthusiast' mean you have to be a RIM cheerleader or eternal optimist...even to the detriment of realism?

I don't care how much you love RIM....claiming BB10 will be on top by next year is just plain crazily unrealistic. Inject realism in everything you do and you will NOT be disappointed.

...or you could end up like Karl Rove, still trying to call Ohio for Romney

[Masahiro]

Does being a 'blackberry enthusiast' mean you have to be a RIM cheerleader or eternal optimist...even to the detriment of realism?

No, but so what? Is there something morally wrong or offensive to you when someone is optimistic?

I don't care how much you love RIM....claiming BB10 will be on top by next year is just plain crazily unrealistic. Inject realism in everything you do and you will NOT be disappointed.

If you really don't care about how much someone loves RIM, why do you care if you think they're being "unrealistic" or that they will be "disappointed"? How does that matter to you? I somehow doubt you're so empathetic that you feel pain every time someone's expectations are not met.

[southlander]

When the Pentagon (or was it NSA? If anyone is interested I could try and dig up the story...) wanted to make a super-secure phone, they took Android, modified it slightly and ended up with something way more secure than even iOS or Blackberries.

Yes. But can this super secure version of Android run all Android apps? I doubt it. So much for compatibility.

Plus Android is free and a very very good free OS. What else would one use.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk

[kraski]

The terms secure, FIPS and unroot don't belong in the same sentence as Android.

The term that best fits in a sentence with Android is malware.

There's a phone far more secure than Blackberry, called the Sectera. When the US Army wanted something somewhere in between those two for security and easy to use, they started to build it. And they used Android for the OS. Just because consumer versions of the OS don't have a lot of security doesn't mean it can't be done. And a few apps beef up security decently. Of course no amount of software or hardware tweaking will ever fix the biggest security risk for any mobile device -- the man with his hand on the phone.

[Superfly_FR]

There's something important here, and this is the main challenge.

While the BB10 devices must offer something different, it has to be compliant somehow with current usages.
The swipe gesture is quite new (while used on some android's and WP7 i believe) because of its predominance in U.I interaction. Remember when the horn of a car where on separate lever in cars ? One day, someone had the brilliant idea to put it in the middle of the steering wheel ... that's what RIM is doing with gestures.
(Same goes for) iOs offered simplicity (and design) and Android customization; that's where they were "innovative"; but none of them really "invented" something, they've used new hardware capabilities (multi-touch for pinch and zoom, or voice (cloud) recognition for Siri for instance) and packaged a new User experience.

The final, its all about details. That sum of little "something better" that will raise the user experience to something that meets his needs.
What's today's needs ? Social, by any means. Back to former century, it would be limited to mail, SMS and RSS. Now it's a vast source of information, both for news and profiles (if you ever send a job request, you know the first reflex will be to lookout at your social profiles).
RIM is breaking the old "you're just two click away from ..." replacing it by "you're always near to ...". Namely, the Flow.
This single change is a massive difference; no matter it implies (real) multi-tasking and micro-kernel usage; almost nobody cares. More, no one should ever have to know "why" it is so easy and efficient: apple succeed defining it as "magic and lovable"; I believe RIM has to provide some king of similar effect like in "the OS allows that".
From back-end to devices (incl. QNX ones) BB10 has been thought as a platform; this is not only vocabulary: this is a product line philosophy.

[richardat]

How exactly are those supposed to be "trolling" statements on a forum for BlackBerry enthusiasts?

I really don't think this should need to be explained. IF the purpose of the forum it to allow only one viewpoint, then it would be justified to call only the opposite comments "trolling". If that is the Op's objection (ie. that is trolling because the opinion stated does not match mine) then the statements I quoted are not trolling. As long as we match his opinion in all things, there will be no trolling, if however, we present a different opinion to him (or you), we will be trolling. We can only hope that your opinion and his will always match, or calamity will ensue.

IF however this is a forum for discussion, then the fact that the opposite opinion is voiced SHOULD NOT NOT NOT NOT be considered trolling. You can't actually have a meaningful dialogue on any issue of controversy without allowing both sides to opine.

Given that, and assuming this forum is the latter, then the OP must only objected to the strength of the statement, and he should, if wishing to be consistent and fair, come down just as hard on the statements I quoted.

[Thud Hardsmack]

When the Pentagon (or was it NSA? If anyone is interested I could try and dig up the story...) wanted to make a super-secure phone, they took Android, modified it slightly and ended up with something way more secure than even iOS or Blackberries.

There is NOTHING inherently insecure in Android, as the FIPS certification some Android devices have achieved can attest to.

So would you be interested if RIM made a locked down, Android-based device designed with security and data protection in mind?

There is only one phone more secure then a BlackBerry, the Sectera, and it does not run Android.

Well, that's your opinion. And sorry BD, but if there is one thing I trust less than your ability to gauge what constitutes a good photograph, it's your opinion on mobile security.

Actually, considering what happened the last time we discussed mobile security* I think I'll just ignore your contributions to the subject.


*anytime I brought up an expert who contradicted you, that expert didn't know what he was asking about. Despite just winning a security competition and bing very well respected in his field.

Please point me in the direction of a smartphone more secure then a BlackBerry that I can go buy.

You don't need an expert to know this, it's a well known fact.

Yes. But can this super secure version of Android run all Android apps? I doubt it. So much for compatibility.

Plus Android is free and a very very good free OS. What else would one use.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk

There's a phone far more secure than Blackberry, called the Sectera. When the US Army wanted something somewhere in between those two for security and easy to use, they started to build it. And they used Android for the OS. Just because consumer versions of the OS don't have a lot of security doesn't mean it can't be done. And a few apps beef up security decently. Of course no amount of software or hardware tweaking will ever fix the biggest security risk for any mobile device -- the man with his hand on the phone.

Sectera Edge, running Windows CE.

[Dapper37]

Just read every post in this thread, I have to say its near a resounding endorsment for RIM.
I have been here on the CB forum for over 2 years, joined in May 2011, I have ready hundreds of post and even more articles regarding RIM. For a time there, a long time actually it was touch and go. I always believed they had significant enough products and prospects to servive. I was worried though when people I believed to be smart and informed, were more concerned than I. Threads like this are a clear statement RIM has turned the corner. They are past the inflection point. The mind share is coming back and gaining momentum. All the negative/uninformed news stories and bogus anaylist out to make a quick buck can't change that. Sure we will see more posters come here and say RIM should go Android, like its some new and profound idea. The fact is those times have come and gone. Some people are just late to the party and haven't figured it out yet.

[texazzpete]

No, but so what? Is there something morally wrong or offensive to you when someone is optimistic?.

Well, there's clearly room for realists...people who realize what are the gaps and what needs to be done.

Thorstein: "We realize BB7 was getting long in the tooth. We want to attract developers. We face a hard struggle".

That's being realistic. That is what saves companies.

Lazaridis: "Blackberry Torch is a revolutionary device that will blow the competition away. The iPhone is a passing fad that will not last. people will flock to us, we provide security"

That is blind optimism. That nearly led RIM to the brink.

My point is, why the heck is contrary opinion on the viability of BB10 dismissed as 'trolling'?

If you really don't care about how much someone loves RIM, why do you care if you think they're being "unrealistic" or that they will be "disappointed"? How does that matter to you? I somehow doubt you're so empathetic that you feel pain every time someone's expectations are not met.

I could reverse that and ask why it matters so much to you and many others here that some people are 'negative'.

[Thud Hardsmack]

I could reverse that and ask why it matters so much to you and many others here that some people are 'negative'.

Can't speak for Masahiro, as far as I'm concerned a FEW negative members isn't so bad. Negativity in the right balance keeps heads from swelling and adds some balanced discussion. When they're getting close to being half the posting majority, it's not a good place to be.

[cgk]

The smart phone market is a toss up at this point in time

It is anything but - it is dominated by two large OSes that have a monopoly on users and those two OSes are dominated by two large corporations who have a monopoly on profits.