02-17-17 10:19 AM
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  1. Invictus0's Avatar
    This notion is even more far fetched. Even my provincial govt has left BlackBerry in 2014. The horse left the stable years ago....in every sector.
    I don't see how it's far fetched, they were selling thousands of devices per quarter (possibly millions depending on the year) and both governments and the medical sector (especially with the Passport) were target markets (I'm sure enterprise was as well but that's outside of the quote). What other markets could be buying these devices?

    Remember, Chen is discussing their demand, he isn't saying they hold those markets exclusively.
    02-14-17 10:14 PM
  2. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Who was buying BB10 devices? ... mainly consumers. Even if you went wild and said that 25 percent was to non consumers. The number of BB10 units sold is very very small in comparison to the sale of Samsung's and iPhones to non consumers.

    Can TLC make a non consumer break through ? I do not see it.

    I see the same old patterns emerging. New BlackBerry phones being purchased by PKB enthusiasts.
    All those non consumer entities will not be switching over to TLC any time soon. It will take many years to bring back the brand.
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 02-14-17 at 10:32 PM.
    02-14-17 10:20 PM
  3. Invictus0's Avatar
    Who was buying BB10 devices? ... mainly consumers. Even if you went wild and said that 25 percent was to non consumers. The number of BB10 units sold is very very small in comparison to the sale of Samsung's and iPhones to non consumers.
    Do you have a source for this? BlackBerry has spent the past few years marketing their devices almost exclusively to enterprise and governments, BB10 doesn't really cater to the consumer market (app gap, lack of first party cloud services, no movies or music in BB World, etc). If ~75% of their BB10 sales were still to regular consumers I think the brand is in a much better position than you give it credit for.
    02-14-17 11:45 PM
  4. Bbnivende's Avatar
    As far as I know BlackBerry basically dismantled their corporate sales division a couple of years ago. Their lack of marketing was across the board.

    They have almost no market share because few are buying their phones. You must be assuming that because you never see BlackBerry phones or know many people that own one that non consumers must be buying them. This is a fallacy. You do not see BlackBerry phones in the wild because so few use them.

    If the Mercury has any kind of sales in year one , it will be because of PKB enthusiasts.
    02-15-17 12:55 AM
  5. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Best estimates are that a total of 10-11M BB10 phones (across all BB10 models) were sold to date. We can guess that around 3-4M are likely still in active use - mostly newer models like the Classic and Passport, but still some Z10/Q10. I would be very surprised if there are 1M BB10 phones in use by enterprise/government (which includes medical enterprise) worldwide today. Bbnivende is absolutely correct in saying that most BB10 sales came from existing BB fans; i.e., consumers. Of the 10-11M total phones sold, I'd guess that 3M or fewer were enterprise/government sales.

    The reason BB clings so closely to the "we're for government/enterprise" isn't because those are who have been buying their phones for the last 5 years - but rather, that's who BB hoped would buy their phones because they can achieve better margins with government/enterprise by bundling phones with services, such as BES, which has reoccurring fees. There's little hope of service fees from consumers - BB has to make every penny of profit on a consumer sale when they actually sell the phone, because the pennies they make off of what's left isn't enough to cover expenses.

    So, yes, that whole "government/enterprise" used to be true, but for the last few years, it's really been nothing but spin and empty hope.
    02-15-17 02:14 AM
  6. Invictus0's Avatar
    As far as I know BlackBerry basically dismantled their corporate sales division a couple of years ago. Their lack of marketing was across the board.

    They have almost no market share because few are buying their phones. You must be assuming that because you never see BlackBerry phones or know many people that own one that non consumers must be buying them. This is a fallacy. You do not see BlackBerry phones in the wild because so few use them.
    I'm assuming that because what Chen said lines up with the markets they've targeted over the past few years and the direction they've taken BB10 in. They've had a smaller marketing presence compared to 2013 but their advertising has largely been enterprise focused.

    Blackberry and Its Agency Discuss Turnaround | BtoB - AdAge

    Best estimates are that a total of 10-11M BB10 phones (across all BB10 models) were sold to date. We can guess that around 3-4M are likely still in active use - mostly newer models like the Classic and Passport, but still some Z10/Q10. I would be very surprised if there are 1M BB10 phones in use by enterprise/government (which includes medical enterprise) worldwide today. Bbnivende is absolutely correct in saying that most BB10 sales came from existing BB fans; i.e., consumers. Of the 10-11M total phones sold, I'd guess that 3M or fewer were enterprise/government sales.

    The reason BB clings so closely to the "we're for government/enterprise" isn't because those are who have been buying their phones for the last 5 years - but rather, that's who BB hoped would buy their phones because they can achieve better margins with government/enterprise by bundling phones with services, such as BES, which has reoccurring fees. There's little hope of service fees from consumers - BB has to make every penny of profit on a consumer sale when they actually sell the phone, because the pennies they make off of what's left isn't enough to cover expenses.

    So, yes, that whole "government/enterprise" used to be true, but for the last few years, it's really been nothing but spin and empty hope.
    The statement was from 2015 so I'm sure the numbers were higher then but BB10 could have certainly found a niche segment within those markets that they could cater to (they used to tout exclusive certifications IIRC), obviously they didn't hold those markets exclusively and I don't think anyone has made that claim.

    Edit: And I should also add that whatever market they claimed to have obviously wasn't big enough to sustain BB10, I doubt we'd be having this discussion if it was.
    Last edited by Invictus0; 02-15-17 at 11:07 AM.
    02-15-17 10:49 AM
  7. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I'm assuming that because what Chen said lines up with the markets they've targeted over the past few years and the direction they've taken BB10 in. They've had a smaller marketing presence compared to 2013 but their advertising has largely been enterprise focused.

    Blackberry and Its Agency Discuss Turnaround | BtoB - AdAge


    The statement was from 2015 so I'm sure the numbers were higher then but BB10 could have certainly found a niche segment within those markets that they could cater to (they used to tout exclusive certifications IIRC), obviously they didn't hold those markets exclusively and I don't think anyone has made that claim.
    Mr. Wilson: We will continue to go after the verticals we are in -- health care, financial services, professional services, etc. -- with more executions. We really believe the message 'It's not a toy' is resonating with our audience. We want to continue that momentum in the marketplace.

    Even then they were still so out of touch with customers views......
    Bbnivende likes this.
    02-15-17 11:10 AM
  8. sidtek50's Avatar
    Blackberry NEED to target consumers and get carrier support.

    Posted via CB10
    02-15-17 11:12 AM
  9. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Blackberry NEED to target consumers and get carrier support.

    Posted via CB10
    They needed a product to do that with....
    02-15-17 01:09 PM
  10. spantch101's Avatar
    They tried to bring a product to market to both consumers and enterprise but it was too little too late just like the storm. At the end of the day, incorporating android runtime into bb10 doomed it from the get go. Too many "ported" apps. Instead of developers getting their apps to the new devices by making a native application they instead to the lazy mans way by repackaging their existing android counterpart making for more and more half baked experiences. If bb10 had no android compatability layers they could have saved some of the money used to try and make it work "better " and made more native apps and kept them supported. There was a lot of optimism at the beginning of bb10 and I was excited to see it unfold. Wish it went another way but eh it is what it is and the market has spoken.

    Posted Via Passport with CB10 app
    02-15-17 08:53 PM
  11. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    They tried to bring a product to market to both consumers and enterprise but it was too little too late just like the storm. At the end of the day, incorporating android runtime into bb10 doomed it from the get go.
    I've heard this many times, and while you're not wrong (the Android runtime was going to spell long-term doom), by the time BB10 was actually being worked on, BB's choices were:

    • No Android Runtime and very little native app support with nothing to fall back on (i.e., quick death in the market)
    • Include an Android Runtime, get very little native app support, but be more attractive to more people due to partial Android app compatibility (i.e., a longer-term death).

    There was no choice that would have made BB10 a success with a 2013 release. By the start of 2010, the app platform wars had already been won by Apple and Google.
    02-15-17 09:33 PM
  12. spantch101's Avatar
    I've heard this many times, and while you're not wrong (the Android runtime was going to spell long-term doom), by the time BB10 was actually being worked on, BB's choices were:

    • No Android Runtime and very little native app support with nothing to fall back on (i.e., quick death in the market)
    • Include an Android Runtime, get very little native app support, but be more attractive to more people due to partial Android app compatibility (i.e., a longer-term death).

    There was no choice that would have made BB10 a success with a 2013 release. By the start of 2010, the app platform wars had already been won by Apple and Google.
    I agree it was too late by the time the 2013release happened but giving an option for an easy way out of making a new app, a lot of developers just took that road, if they seen the only way to get their app on a BlackBerry (before they knew it was doomed) was to make a native app I believe more devs would have done that. A lot of people thought BlackBerry might have had a chance at first. Although the optimism was short lived

    Posted Via Passport with CB10 app
    02-15-17 09:38 PM
  13. anon(9607753)'s Avatar
    And don't forget...no one knows what the likes of Google and Apple did to kill BB10 'behind the scenes' to ensure it was not a success. In retrospect it certainly seems very odd (and perhaps not so accidental) that so many key apps were missing from BB10 upon its initial release. Obviously no one can ever know for sure what happened, but certainly it would have been in both of their interests to pressure and/or use incentives to convince key developers to not produce BB10 versions of their apps.
    02-15-17 09:48 PM
  14. spantch101's Avatar
    And don't forget...no one knows what the likes of Google and Apple did to kill BB10 'behind the scenes' to ensure it was not a success. In retrospect it certainly seems very odd (and perhaps not so accidental) that so many key apps were missing from BB10 upon its initial release. Obviously no one can ever know for sure what happened, but certainly it would have been in both of their interests to pressure and/or use incentives to convince key developers to not produce BB10 versions of their apps.
    It wouldn't surprise me at all for the certain app makers making deals with the enemy for a price lol

    Posted Via Passport with CB10 app
    02-15-17 09:52 PM
  15. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    And don't forget...no one knows what the likes of Google and Apple did to kill BB10 'behind the scenes' to ensure it was not a success.
    Why would they have done anything? Market pressures did the work for them without them having to lift a finger. By 2013, when BB released BB10 (buggy and incomplete), iOS and Android absolutely dominated developer mindshare and had the only platforms where developers could find a ROI. As app-Developer has pointed out several times, there was absolutely nothing a BB10 phone could do that other phones couldn't - so there was no reason for devs to jump to BB10 to showcase something new - and there were LOTS of things BB10 couldn't do that other OSs could due to the very incomplete APIs BB provided. Plus, of course, the hundreds of millions of users the other platforms had.

    Apple and Google were worried about EACH OTHER - they had absolutely zero reason to burn a single calorie worrying about BB10 or WinPhone or Sailfish or any other OS. None of them were at all relevant with regards to marketshare or developer appeal - so they simply let the market work.
    Bbnivende and Dunt Dunt Dunt like this.
    02-15-17 11:30 PM
  16. thurask's Avatar
    I've heard this many times, and while you're not wrong (the Android runtime was going to spell long-term doom), by the time BB10 was actually being worked on, BB's choices were:

    • No Android Runtime and very little native app support with nothing to fall back on (i.e., quick death in the market)
    • Include an Android Runtime, get very little native app support, but be more attractive to more people due to partial Android app compatibility (i.e., a longer-term death).

    There was no choice that would have made BB10 a success with a 2013 release. By the start of 2010, the app platform wars had already been won by Apple and Google.
    The Android runtime predates BB10, so they gave up even before 2013.

    And don't forget...no one knows what the likes of Google and Apple did to kill BB10 'behind the scenes' to ensure it was not a success. In retrospect it certainly seems very odd (and perhaps not so accidental) that so many key apps were missing from BB10 upon its initial release. Obviously no one can ever know for sure what happened, but certainly it would have been in both of their interests to pressure and/or use incentives to convince key developers to not produce BB10 versions of their apps.
    Yes, it's Google's long con to get Lazaridis to found the company and run it how he did, since his hesitation (and, frankly, bumbling) was a large part of why BB10 ended up overpromising and underdelivering.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    02-15-17 11:47 PM
  17. Bbnivende's Avatar
    They tried to bring a product to market to both consumers and enterprise but it was too little too late just like the storm. At the end of the day, incorporating android runtime into bb10 doomed it from the get go. Too many "ported" apps. Instead of developers getting their apps to the new devices by making a native application they instead to the lazy mans way by repackaging their existing android counterpart making for more and more half baked experiences. If bb10 had no android compatability layers they could have saved some of the money used to try and make it work "better " and made more native apps and kept them supported. There was a lot of optimism at the beginning of bb10 and I was excited to see it unfold. Wish it went another way but eh it is what it is and the market has spoken.

    Posted Via Passport with CB10 app
    They presumed that they would have enough legacy owners and Enterprise users coming over in such numbers so as to create some instant credibility.

    What we saw in 2013 and on was just entropy. A winding down. They could have kept BBOS and no BB10 going with the same result.

    The orphaned their entire BBOS platform. The transition was doomed.

    Posted via CB10
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    02-16-17 01:18 AM
  18. anon(9607753)'s Avatar
    Yes, it's Google's long con to get Lazaridis to found the company and run it how he did, since his hesitation (and, frankly, bumbling) was a large part of why BB10 ended up overpromising and underdelivering.
    Snicker as you may...BlackBerry was still a multi-billion dollar company with about 80 million users (and about 10% of the market) at the time. Anyone who thinks BlackBerry's lucrative niche was not worth their effort (and worth fighting for) is obviously no businessman. Lol.
    02-16-17 03:07 PM
  19. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    They presumed that they would have enough legacy owners and Enterprise users coming over in such numbers so as to create some instant credibility.

    What we saw in 2013 and on was just entropy. A winding down. They could have kept BBOS and no BB10 going with the same result.

    The orphaned their entire BBOS platform. The transition was doomed.

    Posted via CB10
    Really think BlackBerry simply waited too long to recognize the need to transition, and then didn't have the resources (numbers or skill) how to do it smoothly or timely. Just assumed everyone would simply do it, when BlackBerry was ready. But what they ended up doing was opening the doors.... and even forcing some to in the interim use another platform, that they ended up sticking with. It's clear that based on how little of BBOS made it into say the Q10 at launch and the crazy BES5/BES10 requirements... that BlackBerry just didn't think about transiting. They just must have assumed everyone was just going to mothball everything they had and start all over with them

    You can say that it's easy for us to say that now... with hindsight. But there were some here that were saying it in 2009 and 2010 (not me - I taught BlackBerry still had time then).
    02-17-17 09:22 AM
  20. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The very first missing step was their failure to make a good all touch phone. The 9850 should have been the precursor to the Z10 and it should have been competitive to other 2011 phones. Even the VKB was very poorly rated. That phone should have been capable of being transitioned to their new OS . The new OS only had to replicate the iPhone experience to be successful. Later iterations could have introduced some gesture innovations.
    02-17-17 10:19 AM
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