04-07-14 11:17 AM
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  1. tinochiko's Avatar
    How can marketting solve BlackBerry's problems?

    Question, how much do you think BlackBerry can spend on marketing via traditional visual media?
    By getting the blackberry name talked about, by people know that BlackBerry has new phones and the benefits of them.. leading to increase in sales..

    They can spend by utilising low cost maximum effect methods, it doesn't take a lot to produce a great video, just the right minds put together..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-06-14 08:23 AM
  2. badiyee's Avatar
    By getting the blackberry name talked about, by people know that BlackBerry has new phones and the benefits of them.. leading to increase in sales..

    They can spend by utilising low cost maximum effect methods, it doesn't take a lot to produce a great video, just the right minds put together..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    Here's the problem. You have WONDERFULLY tried and proven idea.

    I was asking, what's the cost to execute that, and what is the returns (guaranteed) ?
    04-06-14 08:27 AM
  3. tinochiko's Avatar
    Here's the problem. You have WONDERFULLY tried and proven idea.

    I was asking, what's the cost to execute that, and what is the returns (guaranteed) ?
    Sorry in not sure I understand, could you rephrase?

    If you mean the cost of what I'm suggesting, well I would have to draw up a document and everything with a cash flow forecast etc and that's not really worth my time for something that won't come into fruition, I can't give you guaranteed numbers on something that's just an idea

    If you want I can find numbers of the cost and effectiveness of past campaigns by different businesses? As close in comparison to BlackBerry as I can find?

    Of the top of my head what I'm suggestions wouldn't cost more than 500million but the long term returns would be helpful, positive PR etc, some (finally) steady growth in BB10 sales and bbm adoption on the consumer side..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-06-14 08:36 AM
  4. badiyee's Avatar
    Sorry in not sure I understand, could you rephrase?

    If you mean the cost of what I'm suggesting, well I would have to draw up a document and everything with a cash flow forecast etc and that's not really worth my time for something that won't come into fruition, I can't give you guaranteed numbers on something that's just an idea

    If you want I can find numbers of the cost and effectiveness of past campaigns by different businesses? As close in comparison to BlackBerry as I can find?

    Of the top of my head what I'm suggestions wouldn't cost more than 500million but the long term returns would be helpful, positive PR etc, some (finally) steady growth in BB10 sales and bbm adoption on the consumer side..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    And are you suggesting that this is the primary way for BlackBerry to "get out" of its current predicament?
    04-06-14 08:49 AM
  5. tinochiko's Avatar
    And are you suggesting that this is the primary way for BlackBerry to "get out" of its current predicament?
    I'm not saying it's the only thing that needs to be done, but yes I believe marketing especially in the UK/US markets + positive PR + better trained BlackBerry reps leading to better trained store reps on BlackBerry matters, better relations with carriers + car phone warehouse etc, more dev incentives, these things need to be done for BlackBerry to increase BB10 sales. Increase bbm use and regain trust of the brand..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-06-14 08:53 AM
  6. badiyee's Avatar
    I'm not saying it's the only thing that needs to be done, but yes I believe marketing especially in the UK/US markets + positive PR + better trained BlackBerry reps leading to better trained store reps on BlackBerry matters, better relations with carriers + car phone warehouse etc, more dev incentives, these things need to be done for BlackBerry to increase BB10 sales. Increase bbm use and regain trust of the brand..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    I think the cost is going to balloon up, beyond the estimates of USD500 million that you propose.

    And even then, all Samsung has to 'continue' (which it has been doing) is to ask the local retailers how much commission they get from selling an Apple device, Nokia device, A BlackBerry device, a competing Android device, and top up 30% more for per device sold margins.

    and the plan that you proposed starts to get really shaky.


    Based on a true story I've seen with my own eyes.


    And now Microsoft is going to play the same game. (they already are)
    04-06-14 08:59 AM
  7. tinochiko's Avatar
    I think the cost is going to balloon up, beyond the estimates of USD500 million that you propose.

    And even then, all Samsung has to 'continue' (which it has been doing) is to ask the local retailers how much commission they get from selling an Apple device, Nokia device, A BlackBerry device, a competing Android device, and top up 30% more for per device sold margins.

    and the plan that you proposed starts to get really shaky.


    Based on a true story I've seen with my own eyes.


    And now Microsoft is going to play the same game. (they already are)
    That's why I emphasise PR more than just throwing away Cash, money talks, but relationships talk better, BlackBerry needs to make it such that their brand becomes more valuable than the money that the other competitors can throw, that's why i said they just need to put some great minds together and they can come out ahead..

    Non price incentives for retailers, long term gain rather than just cash..

    BlackBerry is in a tight spot and they'll need some innovative ideas to come out of it, they need to think with sense, not just money..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-06-14 09:08 AM
  8. badiyee's Avatar
    That's why I emphasise PR more than just throwing away Cash, money talks, but relationships talk better, BlackBerry needs to make it such that their brand becomes more valuable than the money that the other competitors can throw, that's why i said they just need to put some great minds together and they can come out ahead..

    Non price incentives for retailers, long term gain rather than just cash..

    BlackBerry is in a tight spot and they'll need some innovative ideas to come out of it, they need to think with sense, not just money..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    what kind of non price incentives for retailers that can attract them, apart from cold hard cash in the account by month's end after a confirmed device sold, with all that commisions?

    If you have an idea that works, I might even try a spin on where I live, and see if the experiment works.


    Because right now, everyone wants to sell a Samsung because it just gives good money. I am wondering what perception is there that can even turn these retailer's heads away from Samsung's money.
    04-06-14 10:12 AM
  9. tinochiko's Avatar
    what kind of non price incentives for retailers that can attract them, apart from cold hard cash in the account by month's end after a confirmed device sold, with all that commisions?

    If you have an idea that works, I might even try a spin on where I live, and see if the experiment works.


    Because right now, everyone wants to sell a Samsung because it just gives good money. I am wondering what perception is there that can even turn these retailer's heads away from Samsung's money.
    Okay so say like Car phone warehouse, what about instead of royalties to put the phones on stands, BlackBerry agreed a deal to offer them big discounts on MDM and EBBM and other enterprise products for the company? That's just off the top of my head..

    Because it's not about the individual retailers BlackBerry pays the Carrier/company for space to display the phone (again: novice understanding)

    Obviously the big drawback of this idea is it means that car phone warehouse has to see value in enterprise, but i dont think that's a big hurdle especially if they discount it for BES12..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-06-14 10:27 AM
  10. badiyee's Avatar
    Okay so say like Car phone warehouse, what about instead of royalties to put the phones on stands, BlackBerry agreed a deal to offer them big discounts on MDM and EBBM and other enterprise products for the company? That's just off the top of my head..

    Because it's not about the individual retailers BlackBerry pays the Carrier/company for space to display the phone (again: novice understanding)

    Obviously the big drawback of this idea is it means that car phone warehouse has to see value in enterprise, but i dont think that's a big hurdle especially if they discount it for BES12..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    Doesn't address the other problem a lot of forumers have talked.

    Their sales agent wants to sell BlackBerry devices.

    Again, the money that Samsung is giving per device sold, is 30% higher.

    You sell more Samsung, its easier to sell, and its a lot of COLD HARD CASH right in the hand.

    So you solved the managerial level, but has it solved to the individual agents selling for the channels like car phone warehouse example you gave?
    04-06-14 10:44 AM
  11. tinochiko's Avatar
    Doesn't address the other problem a lot of forumers have talked.

    Their sales agent wants to sell BlackBerry devices.

    Again, the money that Samsung is giving per device sold, is 30% higher.

    You sell more Samsung, its easier to sell, and its a lot of COLD HARD CASH right in the hand.

    So you solved the managerial level, but has it solved to the individual agents selling for the channels like car phone warehouse example you gave?
    The manegerial level sinks down to the agent level, although on that level it's also to do with BlackBerry reps..


    1) this is on a person by persons basis, but in general I would say just having a nice rep who cares and explains things nicely to you without talking down to you will encourage the agents to promote and have a positive image of BlackBerry phones in their mind meaning they are more likely to mention BlackBerry as an option when a customer is looking for an upgrade and also means they are kept well knowledge on the BlackBerry phones

    2) yes they might get more money selling Samsung, but if the rep becomes a friend then they won't care about money, especially with the knowledge that they are truly benefiting the customer giving them a phone that works for them (obviously this only works for agents who aren't just in it for the money and actually enjoy their job and are passionate about it which would be the kind of people car phone warehouse employes)

    3) non cash incentives can be another option at this level, BlackBerry swag, some tickets to BlackBerry sponsered events ( if the agent had children something for them) it's all about real relationships with people rather than just a business transaction, then the cash that iPhone and Samsung have won't matter..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-06-14 10:52 AM
  12. badiyee's Avatar
    There are a lot of IFs, and you're spending 500 million. A lot of money and a lot of work. Not to mention you got to send people to meet, and there's only so little they can do, and not everyone will a BlackBerry supporter. What are the returns, guaranteed that there will be an "evangelical BlackBerry promoter" who's willing to go all out just for BlackBerry after all these 1st step?

    You remember, its only 500million, a PUSH. you got to go for round 2, 3, 4, 5.

    How do you think the handset division sells can earn that much to cover that loss to marketing costs?
    04-06-14 10:57 AM
  13. tinochiko's Avatar
    There are a lot of IFs, and you're spending 500 million. A lot of money and a lot of work. Not to mention you got to send people to meet, and there's only so little they can do, and not everyone will a BlackBerry supporter. What are the returns, guaranteed that there will be an "evangelical BlackBerry promoter" who's willing to go all out just for BlackBerry after all these 1st step?

    You remember, its only 500million, a PUSH. you got to go for round 2, 3, 4, 5.

    How do you think the handset division sells can earn that much to cover that loss to marketing costs?
    Yes that's because it's a hypothetical??? I can't give you anything certain and the are just of the top of my head, I'm sure the bright heads at BlackBerry can come up with better ideas, yes spending cash 500 million, the MDM discounts aren't spending cash?
    Where are your figures to show that it would reach that amount? Since you want to be specific?

    Well yes ofcourse it's going to take a lot of work for them to get out of the corner?? What's your quick and easy fix?

    It's not about being a BlackBerry supporter, it's about being a people supporter, and they'll support each other which will be supporting BlackBerry?

    The returns are BlackBerry trusted more, more people considering the phones as a viable upgrade option, people actually knowing what BlackBerry 10 is and what it does and that BlackBerry is here to stay, increase sales etc..

    The money won't be coming from the handset division :s? But it will benefit for te long term..



    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-06-14 11:05 AM
  14. iN8ter's Avatar
    I have to disagree with you on this as BBM inform users if their messages are stuck & don't get through, for this they get a lot of flak for not being reliable. WhatsApp & SMS do not inform users that their messages do not get through & it is considered reliable.

    How I got to know this is because I deleted my WhatsApp for a week & I keep getting calls from my friends & customers asking me why I didn't reply their WhatsApp. As I used to work together with all the telco's for SMS marketing they give me no guarantee that the sms's will ever get through.

    This is why I say people don't care if their messages get through or not.

    Posted via CB10
    Doesn't matter what it informs. If they don't go through they don't go through. What does informing the user change about it not going through? Even an sms client will tell you if it failed to send a message.

    Almost every other major messaging service on the market tells you if it fails to send a message and most allow you to see when delivered and read. Don't see your point.

    BBM was terrible on Android because it consistently failed to deliver messages. All the visual cues did was make it all the more obvious that the service was choking.

    Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk
    04-06-14 12:11 PM
  15. Loc22's Avatar
    Doesn't matter what it informs. If they don't go through they don't go through. What does informing the user change about it not going through? Even an sms client will tell you if it failed to send a message.

    Almost every other major messaging service on the market tells you if it fails to send a message and most allow you to see when delivered and read. Don't see your point.

    BBM was terrible on Android because it consistently failed to deliver messages. All the visual cues did was make it all the more obvious that the service was choking.

    Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk
    I've used Motorola, Siemens & Palm phones before a BlackBerry none of them informs me if my SMS doesn't go through. The recipient just doesn't received the message. Which phone do you use that it inform you if the message doesn't go through?

    In my experience with WhatsApp, it has not informed me that my messages are not going through. I know for a fact that sometimes it doesn't get through. I have friends who calls me asking me why I didn't reply their WhatsApp messages, my answer is I didn't get it. To them they already have their one or two checks on their side.

    In my experience with BBM if I get a cross, just a check, or just a red clock with no changes after a while I know my message didn't go through. That has been very consistent.

    So how do you really define reliability here?

    Posted via CB10
    Dave Bourque likes this.
    04-06-14 01:52 PM
  16. Ecm's Avatar
    [WARN]Let's keep the discussion on the topic. Cut the personal comments out of your rebuttals. They will (at the least) be deleted.[/WARN]
    04-06-14 03:16 PM
  17. badiyee's Avatar
    Yes that's because it's a hypothetical??? I can't give you anything certain and the are just of the top of my head, I'm sure the bright heads at BlackBerry can come up with better ideas, yes spending cash 500 million, the MDM discounts aren't spending cash?
    Where are your figures to show that it would reach that amount? Since you want to be specific?

    Well yes ofcourse it's going to take a lot of work for them to get out of the corner?? What's your quick and easy fix?

    It's not about being a BlackBerry supporter, it's about being a people supporter, and they'll support each other which will be supporting BlackBerry?

    The returns are BlackBerry trusted more, more people considering the phones as a viable upgrade option, people actually knowing what BlackBerry 10 is and what it does and that BlackBerry is here to stay, increase sales etc..

    The money won't be coming from the handset division :s? But it will benefit for te long term..



    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    To which I imply that the money isn't worth the investment to market only and hope for better returns, assuming the 500million was used as the price point.

    Posted via CB on BB10
    04-06-14 06:54 PM
  18. tinochiko's Avatar
    To which I imply that the money isn't worth the investment to market only and hope for better returns, assuming the 500million was used as the price point.

    Posted via CB on BB10
    Based on?

    I've found that Sony are actually utilising similar measures, raffling holidays and hardware to reps as well as/instead of commissions.

    So there is some merit to it

    I pulled 500 million out of the air, different methods work for different places I'm talking mainly about the UK, where I believe the overall cost would be lower than that, but the effect would be worth it.

    But for this to work well, there need to be more customers going into the store with BlackBerry in their mind already, which is then about the PR and youtube vids etc

    I wager that the general public for the most part still don't really understand what BB10 is if they know it at all, BlackBerry needs to get the name and recognition out there not just billboards but information, events needs to create a BB10 buzz with consumers as well as they have been doing with business customers (e.g. With the BT Tower event)

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-07-14 06:26 AM
  19. badiyee's Avatar
    Based on?

    I've found that Sony are actually utilising similar measures, raffling holidays and hardware to reps as well as/instead of commissions.

    So there is some merit to it

    I pulled 500 million out of the air, different methods work for different places I'm talking mainly about the UK, where I believe the overall cost would be lower than that, but the effect would be worth it.

    But for this to work well, there need to be more customers going into the store with BlackBerry in their mind already, which is then about the PR and youtube vids etc

    I wager that the general public for the most part still don't really understand what BB10 is if they know it at all, BlackBerry needs to get the name and recognition out there not just billboards but information, events needs to create a BB10 buzz with consumers as well as they have been doing with business customers (e.g. With the BT Tower event)

    TechCraze C0008DDD1

    If i recall correctly Samsung spent 500million just to pre-blitz the Olympic events, not the Olympic events. I sure don't know how much that translated into sales. If I recall it was for the S3 or was it S4.

    With BlackBerry having a different portfolio as the handsets are tailored for different customer groups, I don't even think the effectiveness is there, let alone being slashed down by 1/5 . Not to mention by the time BlackBerry DOES its marketting blitz, all Samsung needs to do is just continue upping the the commision, or do another round of marketting blitz, or both combined and whatever BlackBerry wasted on 500 million on that marketting in visual media gets drowned. Universally.
    04-07-14 09:17 AM
  20. tinochiko's Avatar
    If i recall correctly Samsung spent 500million just to pre-blitz the Olympic events, not the Olympic events. I sure don't know how much that translated into sales. If I recall it was for the S3 or was it S4.

    With BlackBerry having a different portfolio as the handsets are tailored for different customer groups, I don't even think the effectiveness is there, let alone being slashed down by 1/5 . Not to mention by the time BlackBerry DOES its marketting blitz, all Samsung needs to do is just continue upping the the commision, or do another round of marketting blitz, or both combined and whatever BlackBerry wasted on 500 million on that marketting in visual media gets drowned. Universally.
    But I'm talking about alternative marketing strategies.. not billboards and things everywhere, the whole theme in my thinking is low cost high effectivness..

    Okay so all if the smaller firms in an oligopoly can just give up they'll never get market share?? Innovation trumps money.. I don't know how else I can put it, I know other players don't have as much money.. but you also can't predict how much they'll react, Samsung is dominating they might not even be bothered st thus stage by anything BlackBerry does..

    And pre blitzing is not the same strategy that I've outlined here so that's not a great comparison, keeping in mind that Samsung are willing and able to overspend even if they don't need to..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-07-14 09:23 AM
  21. badiyee's Avatar
    But I'm talking about alternative marketing strategies.. not billboards and things everywhere, the whole theme in my thinking is low cost high effectivness..

    Okay so all if the smaller firms in an oligopoly can just give up they'll never get market share?? Innovation trumps money.. I don't know how else I can put it, I know other players don't have as much money.. but you also can't predict how much they'll react, Samsung is dominating they might not even be bothered st thus stage by anything BlackBerry does..

    And pre blitzing is not the same strategy that I've outlined here so that's not a great comparison, keeping in mind that Samsung are willing and able to overspend even if they don't need to..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    You were, in the earliest of this discourse, claiming all it takes for BlackBerry is, give and take 500million for advertising alone, and that should turn the company's fortunes.

    I did not agree to that premise, (no matter how big or small the sum is) that advertising alone will save BlackBerry at this juncture.
    04-07-14 09:34 AM
  22. tinochiko's Avatar
    You were, in the earliest of this discourse, claiming all it takes for BlackBerry is, give and take 500million for advertising alone, and that should turn the company's fortunes.

    I did not agree to that premise, (no matter how big or small the sum is) that advertising alone will save BlackBerry at this juncture.
    That's not what I said.. I didn't say advertising.. I said effective marketing

    Marketing is : Price, Place, Product, Promotion


    EDIT: just to make sure im not remembering incorrectly:
    Attachment 261310
    dusdal likes this.
    04-07-14 09:41 AM
  23. badiyee's Avatar
    That's not what I said.. I didn't say advertising.. I said effective marketing

    Marketing is : Price, Place, Product, Promotion


    EDIT: just to make sure im not remembering incorrectly:
    Attachment 261310
    Hmm, then I must have mistaken a lot of your posts, because I definitely did seem to have the image of advertising a lot in your posts.


    But again, I need to point out how are you going to be sure that the plan does not even fail, because there are monetary and loyalty weak links (not exactly torn, but severely weakened).

    You based your plans to create evangelists, but these same people will have to sacrifice a lot just to make BlackBerry work, taking a lot of commission reduction, especially if they are not selling Samsung devices.
    04-07-14 10:15 AM
  24. tinochiko's Avatar
    Hmm, then I must have mistaken a lot of your posts, because I definitely did seem to have the image of advertising a lot in your posts.


    But again, I need to point out how are you going to be sure that the plan does not even fail, because there are monetary and loyalty weak links (not exactly torn, but severely weakened).

    You based your plans to create evangelists, but these same people will have to sacrifice a lot just to make BlackBerry work, taking a lot of commission reduction, especially if they are not selling Samsung devices.
    I think you've misunderstood a lot of what I'm saying, let me see if I can put it as simply as possible, post to come soon. And for the record, within the definition of a plan is room for failure? It's BlackBerry's job to mitigate the risks of failure of any plan they make and that is the point of 'what if' analysis (if something happensoutside our plan how will we react)

    You can't account for every possible possibility so I can't provide you a 'faultless plan' especially since this is all hypothetical.. but as said above I'll try and Re clarify my ideas and see if I can't make things clearer..

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-07-14 10:25 AM
  25. tinochiko's Avatar
    First things first, my idea is not to create 'evangelists'.

    2) you asked me about traditional visual media, what I'm proposing extends beyond that

    3) I'm suggesting improvements on marketing strategy as a whole, you asked for specifics so I focused on (based in UK);

    4) Positive PR - this costs next to nothing and is about BlackBerry getting involved in media events (much like the ties with mercedes at F1) but more focused on promoting BB10 and BBM like they have been in America with the bbm van going around..
    4.1 - this will lead to a greater awareness of BB10 and BBM, meaning customers walking into the store with BlackBerry on their mind, then the following points will mean they can find out more, positive information about BlackBerry phones.. (obviously with bbm it will be directly to downloads)

    5) better BlackBerry reps (these are individuals hired by BlackBerry to go into stores around once every few weeks to update on BlackBerry phones and progress etc), by better I mean what I was talking about with friendliness (I've heard complaints about BlackBerry reps speaking down to the in store sales people) , and ability to communicate..
    5.1 this means in store reps are better educated about BlackBerry, meaning if/when a customer asks they get the information they need to make a decision (rather than they won't be around soon etc), meaning more customers satisfied with a BB10 phone in their hand, they recommend to their friends etc that's majorly beneficial and a long term return. Yes reps can be getting high commissions for Samsung/Apple, but at the end of the day they can't force people to buy them, if someone comes in with BlackBerry on their mind, and a rep educated on the latest to do with BlackBerry, it won't be in the customers interest to try and sell them a Samsung. It's (Samsungs(or BlackBerry)) job to be in their minds before they enter the store

    6) better relationships with carriers(i used the example of car phone warehouse) and discounts via BES12 etc
    6.1 this will mean the business will be internally continuing to support BlackBerry.

    7) and more incentives for devs and awareness of the incentives provided (more awareness than increasing incentives)
    7.1 this helps balance the dev imbalance and persuade them to develop for BlackBerry too, but as useful would be giving incentives for the large apps to come along (Barclays + Netflix and other native missing apps)

    I hope you understand this vague plan a bit better, if you don't think it would work, that's your entitled opinion, I believe it would do a lot more than what they're doing atm



    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    04-07-14 11:17 AM
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