[dchawk81]

You can zoom in on the BB Browser.

Speed-wise I'm not sure. I don't have WiFi to compare the CDMA data to. It doesn't really seem slow to me though.

I already can view YouTube on the Tour but not full flash stuff, so I guess it's neck and neck in that feature race.

[tony bag o donuts]

It's pretty user friendly. It's just starting to become outdated. The memory problems are the biggest concerns. And not being able to run apps from the memory card.

AGREED!!!

The mem card for running apps I miss from WM...
I also hated having to buy an app to add new numbers to existing contacts.
Didn't like copy and paste.

[anon(19759)]

They have the ability to do flash video (i.e. YouTube) and supposedly full Flash is on it's way (or possibly already out... I don't keep that much track of iPhone stuff).

False - no Adobe Flash on an iPhone.

[smnc]

False - no Adobe Flash on an iPhone.

?

What's false? I said that iPhone can watch YouTube videos (true), and that Adobe is working with Apple on full flash (also True last time I checked)...

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[anon(19759)]

? What's false? I said that iPhone can watch YouTube videos (true), and that Adobe is working with Apple on full flash (also True AFAIK)...

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

You said they have the ability to watch flash videos (You Tube). Youtube videos on an iphone are not flash format. They are converted and compressed for a mobile device.

[smnc]

You can zoom in on the BB Browser.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. You can't zoom in on the tiny little thumbnail sized pictures or see an enlarged version.

Since a good deal of what I do online for work requires me to be able to see pictures, it's a real PITA

Speed-wise I'm not sure. I don't have WiFi to compare the CDMA data to. It doesn't really seem slow to me though.

Again, I think you're misunderstanding me.
The 8310 doesn't have WiFi. I have 2G EDGE speeds, which is basically dial-up speeds. The BB browser is quite slow on my Curve.
Your Tour has CDMA 3G (EvDO). It's around 3 times as fast as my internet, about the speed of a "high speed lite" land line connection.
So you probably have less issues with the slowness of the browser.

[smnc]

You said they have the ability to watch flash videos (You Tube). Youtube videos on an iphone are not flash format. They are converted and compressed for a mobile device.

Fair enough. I was maybe inaccurate, but YouTube videos ARE Flash based, right?
So the fact that the iPhone converts them doesn't change the fact that it's viewing video from a flash-based source... at least that's my take on it.

Anyway, there's no need to argue. As my point was that the iPhone can view youtube, but AFAIK, doesn't have full flash capabilities.... yet...

[anon(19759)]

Fair enough. I was maybe inaccurate, but YouTube videos ARE Flash based, right?
So the fact that the iPhone converts them doesn't change the fact that it's viewing video from a flash-based source... at least that's my take on it.

Anyway, there's no need to argue. As my point was that the iPhone can view youtube, but AFAIK, doesn't have full flash capabilities.... yet...

Sort of. Youtube videos when viewed on a pc are flash based. When a video is requested to watch on a mobile device, youtube actually does the conversion and compression before sending to your device. That doesn't happen on the device side. Believe me, I really wish BB would get flash compatibility. There are positives and negatives for both sides, but I want it!

To the OP - I would say the biggest reason people perceive the BB OS as restrictive is because of it's tight security. If restrictive equals secure, then I guess the BB is restrictive.

[hurricane87#CB]

Okay, so here's my problems with BB OS.
Basically it's older and not designed for the use it sees now a days.
It's actually a near PERFECT OS for it's originally intended use.

But since most of us go well past the original intended use of the BB OS, here's my litany of problems:

1.)Poor web browser. Yeah it's great for WAP and other mobile formatted pages, but once you get out on the open web, it comes up real short.

2.)Mediocre media player. Yeah, it's not horrible, but it's not great. Not even "good" IMO.

3.)Dated User Interface. One big screen with folders as the only way to organize apps? Eww...

4.)Memory leaks. Why should I have to do regular battery pulls to make my Berry usable?

All these things are due to pushing the limits of what the BB OS was designed for, and I know certain things are already in the works to address these issues (like RIM buying Torch to make a better web browser).

But RIM devices are traditionally built for the corporate world, and so, the BB OS has hands down the best e-mail, solid PIM, and most of all is stable and secure.

I really don't the argument that the BB OS has a Dated UI. A big screen with Icons? how is that different than the iPhones UI!? Atleast you can organize the apps on the BB in folders... geez

[smnc]

I guess it's personal preference. I find the folder based system slow and kludgy.

It's mostly the fact that I find the folders add visual clutter, and the fact that I have to keep going back to the home screen to change folders is annoying.
In the iPhone, you don't have the clutter of the folders, and you can just scroll from one screen to the next. Ditto the Pre.

I guess I'm the only one who finds RIMs Windows 3.1 style interface a bit too.... retro.

[dchawk81]

I'm on Windows XP and it too has folders. Folders are just SOP in the business world, that's all.

If you don't want folders on your BB, just have the icons out in plain sight on the home screen. Scroll top to bottom. Problem solved.

[cavingjan]

Folders are not required on the BB OS. You can remove/hide all of them and move all of the apps to the home folder and scroll through them. It does get clunky if you have a lot of apps.

Folders can be a great organizational tool but aren't for everybody. Better to have them and allow the device to function without them than to not allow them and stick the end user without organizational tools.

[smnc]

I'm on Windows XP and it too has folders. Folders are just SOP in the business world, that's all.

Yes, but they're not the primary user interface for launching programs, the Start Menu is.
Windows XP also has customizable toolbars on the task bar.
Besides which, XP isn't exactly a shining example of great UI design.

Folders are not required on the BB OS. You can remove/hide all of them and move all of the apps to the home folder and scroll through them. It does get clunky if you have a lot of apps.

True, but not having folders is worse than having them.

Folders can be a great organizational tool but aren't for everybody. Better to have them and allow the device to function without them than to not allow them and stick the end user without organizational tools.

I don't think folders are "great", but they're better than nothing.

I know some of you love the BB UI, and I'm happy for you. I don't, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[codito]

But it's identical to the iPhone program selection interface in it's mechanics. It's very simple and works great for what it needs to do.

[smnc]

Okay, so here's my overall point.

Almost all of the BlackBerry OS is FINE.
The UI is FINE.
The Media Player is FINE.
The memory leaks are NOT TOO BAD.
The Browser is OKAY.

But why should we, the Citizens of the CRACKBERRY NATION, users of the GREATEST SMARTPHONE in the WORLD have to settle for mediocrity?

Why should the Safari browser kick our ***?
Why should we have ANY memory leaks?

We should have the BEST of everything? **** yes!
Am I greedy? You bet!
I just don't like compromising.

[codito]

I don't really know how you'd change the media player or improve it. Browser could definitely improve, and I bet it will now that RIM bought that company. Memory leaks are definitely a big issue, and I wish they'd shift to a new platform as the basis for their OS. It seems like a dated platform and there's no reason something just as secure couldn't be written that doesn't suck ****

[smnc]

But it's identical to the iPhone program selection interface in it's mechanics. It's very simple and works great for what it needs to do.

I disagree. The difference is subtle, but at least to me, significant.
With the BB OS, we have ONE program screen, the "home screen".
We can put apps directly on the home screen. We can also put folders on the home screen, and put apps in the folders.

On an iPhone, you have multiple home screens to put apps onto, as well as a persistent dock for your most frequently used apps.

On the BB, you have to keep returning to the home screen before moving into another folder, or to get to your most frequently used apps.

On an iPhone, you can scroll from app screen to app screen, and you have easy access to your most frequent apps.


Like, I said, it's personal preference, but I find the iPhone user interface quicker and more efficient for me. There are MANY things I don't like or even hate about the iPhone, but the UI isn't one of them.

[smnc]

I don't really know how you'd change the media player or improve it.

I described my problems with the Media Player in an earlier post... I think it was back on page 2... Slow, and harder to navigate, and horrible playlist creation is the short version.

Browser could definitely improve, and I bet it will now that RIM bought that company.

Yup. Torch Mobile's webkit experience and Iris browser will be a HUGE improvement.

Memory leaks are definitely a big issue, and I wish they'd shift to a new platform as the basis for their OS. It seems like a dated platform and there's no reason something just as secure couldn't be written that doesn't suck ****

+1

[codito]

I disagree. The difference is subtle, but at least to me, significant.
With the BB OS, we have ONE program screen, the "home screen".
We can put apps directly on the home screen. We can also put folders on the home screen, and put apps in the folders.

On an iPhone, you have multiple home screens to put apps onto, as well as a persistent dock for your most frequently used apps.

On the BB, you have to keep returning to the home screen before moving into another folder, or to get to your most frequently used apps.

On an iPhone, you can scroll from app screen to app screen, and you have easy access to your most frequent apps.


Like, I said, it's personal preference, but I find the iPhone user interface quicker and more efficient for me. There are MANY things I don't like or even hate about the iPhone, but the UI isn't one of them.

I have a dock and a main selection of programs and can scroll down and to another 'app screen' of programs. It's really the exact same concept.

[Masahiro]

I disagree. The difference is subtle, but at least to me, significant.
With the BB OS, we have ONE program screen, the "home screen".
We can put apps directly on the home screen. We can also put folders on the home screen, and put apps in the folders.

On an iPhone, you have multiple home screens to put apps onto, as well as a persistent dock for your most frequently used apps.

On the BB, you have to keep returning to the home screen before moving into another folder, or to get to your most frequently used apps.

On an iPhone, you can scroll from app screen to app screen, and you have easy access to your most frequent apps.


Like, I said, it's personal preference, but I find the iPhone user interface quicker and more efficient for me. There are MANY things I don't like or even hate about the iPhone, but the UI isn't one of them.

I really don't see how having to return to the homescreen is such a big issue. All it takes is one press of the button, and you're back at the app screen (at least when it comes to most apps. I don't think pressing the call end button works in Opera Mini for some reason). I also prefer not having to scroll through multiple screens to browse everything. How's that any different than pressing on a folder and going to a new screen that way?

[dchawk81]

Yes, but they're not the primary user interface for launching programs, the Start Menu is.
Windows XP also has customizable toolbars on the task bar.
Besides which, XP isn't exactly a shining example of great UI design.


True, but not having folders is worse than having them.


I don't think folders are "great", but they're better than nothing.

I know some of you love the BB UI, and I'm happy for you. I don't, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I rarely use my start menu. It's too long and scrolls too much. I have icons on my desktop. It's easier and faster to have icons for applications and folders on my desktop. Just like...oh hey! The BlackBerry.

It's not so much about loving the OS. That's creepy. It's more about learning and adjusting. Nothing mass-produced is perfect for everyone and never can be.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[dchawk81]

Okay, so here's my overall point.

Almost all of the BlackBerry OS is FINE.
The UI is FINE.
The Media Player is FINE.
The memory leaks are NOT TOO BAD.
The Browser is OKAY.

But why should we, the Citizens of the CRACKBERRY NATION, users of the GREATEST SMARTPHONE in the WORLD have to settle for mediocrity?

Why should the Safari browser kick our ***?
Why should we have ANY memory leaks?

We should have the BEST of everything? **** yes!
Am I greedy? You bet!
I just don't like compromising.

Your argument might be convincing and I might join your little crusade if you were speaking from experience with current devices. Sine you're not, many of your complaints are really no longer applicable and the few that are (like folders) are highly personal.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[smnc]

I rarely use my start menu. It's too long and scrolls too much. I have icons on my desktop. It's easier and faster to have icons for applications and folders on my desktop. Just like...oh hey! The BlackBerry.

Fair enough, but I wasn't talking about the all Programs part of the start menu, I was talking about the base menu with access to your favorites, documents and most recently used programs.

I work with clients computers all day long, and I can safely say, the none of them use desktop folders for organizing their programs, but hey, if that works for you, more power too you.

It's not so much about loving the OS. That's creepy. It's more about learning and adjusting. Nothing mass-produced is perfect for everyone and never can be.

Sure, but I prefer an UI that can adjust to me, not vice-vera. Like I said, it's about personal preference. In fact, customizability is one of my favorite traits any product can have. I love being able to make a product work the way I want it too.

Your argument might be convincing and I might join your little crusade if you were speaking from experience with current devices. Sine you're not, many of your complaints are really no longer applicable and the few that are (like folders) are highly personal.

Good point, and I've said since the beginning that my hardware is dated, and it may well be the source of many of my complaints. That said, the 83xx series was still the best selling smartphone in Q1 this year, ahead of even the mighty iPhone 3G, so it's still 'current' in my books.

So here's an update. Based of feedback from you folks, and a few other places in this forum, I decided to upgrade my hardware before deciding on a next-gen smartphone for myself.
I picked up a used 8900 (no contract) yesterday morning to try out some of your rather persuasive arguments.

1.)Media player is fixed. No more 8-9 second wait times before a song starts playing. Complaint partially withdrawn.
2.)UI is better. No more wait screens (or almost none), and quicker scrolling help a lot. Also the abillity to run more advanced themes like scrolling crossbars, hidden today, and weather slots make the UI MUCH more effecient (for me). I no longer have to keep going back to the app screen as much. Complaint partially withdrawn.
3.)Browser. complex page rendering is still sub-par, but it is MUCH faster and more responsive. Complaint partially withdrawn.

In conclusion, RIM needs to STOP SELLING the 83xx series. They just can't keep up. Luckily it looks to me like the 85xx is intended as a replacement, so hopefully that will do it.
The browser is still crap, but should be fixed soon.
The Media player is better. Playlist creation still sucks though.
The tweaked 4.6 UI is better. Not all the way better, but it helps.
Memory leaks still suck.

So I'll say this. Maybe RIM is on the right path. The 8900 will keep me going strong for another year at least.

Thanks everyone!

[dchawk81]

I'll give you that the browser isn't amazing. But I didn't find any of the third party browsers to be amazing either.

My base start menu as you call it is the 6 icons at the bottom of my main screen. It's currently Browser | Messages | Contacts | Calendar | Tasks | Memo. Home screen button takes me to those 6 first, then TeleNav, Media, BlackCard, dub, Amazon, then the folders which house lesser used applications and are named accordingly. Social Networking, Instant Messaging, Sports & Entertainment, Maps & Travel, Applications (this is stuff that has icons for settings, not so much to run the app itself), Downloads, then Setup.

As for memory leaks, every time I holster my phone or let it go idle, it'll clean up the memory. I'm a business user but I still have downtime with it, so it does indeed get holstered.

[digital_cataclysm]

What happened to Research In Motion and where are they going? : Boy Genius Report

BGR posted that little treatsie a few months back - and I can't say that I particularly disagree with anything on any given point written in there...

the OS "works" up to a point, as far as I'm concerned - it's not bloody awful by any means, but it certainly isn't up to the level of refinement and future potential that other compeditors have invested in their OS software.
It's good to see that RIM has finally viewed having a webkit-based browser as something desireable to add to the roster.

That's just the tip of the "things-to-improve" iceberg that RIM needs to address, though. I love my BlackBerry, I love the freedom it allows me - many of the features I can enjoy on my BB just isn't possible on Apples restrictive iPhone (or would require a jailbroken one) - but there is a lot of constructive improvement I can still say the BlackBerry OS NEEDS, if it's expected to stay compeditive within the fast-moving mobile device marketplace.

The device memory is pretty paltry, RIM needs to start including more availale for use, or allowing us to run applications off an SD card or something.
Their lack of HTML eMail is also a point that a lot of us are griping about - why it is we can't even view the most basic of email attachnents included within the letter. Instead we have this draconian system that requires complete splintering of the mail contents.
Using AOL back in the day wasn't even this disjointed.

Several areas within the BlackBerry OS we have now, I've really been wishing there were some kind of "undo" fuction - to step back and undo a mistake on your part, maybe in case you accidently deleted something you didn't want to. A couple times this has happened to me - would have been a lot easier to just pull up and click an "undo" tab, than to have to re-write the whole entry. Again, just something else that shows the age of this OS.

RIM got a HUGE headstart in the business arena, and much of what made the BlackBerry so great there, was eagerly adopted by the consumer populace as well - such as their push email and BBM functions - but what happens when the other guys catch up to that?
RIM had a decent idea, to begin offering what worked so well to sell the iPhone, and that was an application-store.

Problem?: not a lot of apps, most of them were still catering to the core-business user, and comparitvely expensive when viewed against other app-store models.
A "drink-a-beer" or constellation-viewer app might sound silly, but you know what? Consumers eat those things up like chocolate cake.

It's fun, it's silly - it isn't very business-like or stodgy, I agree... But that's the whole point. After playing around with an iPhone and an Android-equipped G1, I can see why people sometimes carry an iPod Touch along with their BlackBerrys.

Therin lays the problem, at least as I see it. RIM has built a reputation with the BlackBerry as a business-machine first and foremost...
Yes, the interfaces are plain and ugly - stodgy text-based dropdown menus to do most everything... But for years, it's worked. Lots of options, granted, - but in a no-frills plain jane OS that simply does what it's supposed to. End of story.

But here's a new chapter in the BlackBerry - now it's the consumer-push that RIM has decided to move in, which is great. Except that joe consumer isn't just happy with push email, and a media player straight from 1998... he's not satisfied with almost IBM-like docturned business functionality... He wants a device that has a better looking interface, he wants a bunch of stupid cheap apps, he wants a web browser that looks more like what his brother Moe has on his Jesus-Phone over there.
Hey, welcome to the consumer world, RIM.

If RIM was just going to shuffle along within the confines of the business world - where personal expression or individuality is pretty much limited to what the corporate IT guys say you can install on your mobile device, sure - fine, they could probably squeeze another three to five years out of the current OS architecture, before people started complaining...
But with the marketed push into consumer territory, RIM has got to improve their game significantly to keep up with the wares the competition is offering the public.

There's no reason why they can't. RIM already has a solid posistion within the business community, as the device of choice. They have a worldwide platform, and certainly enough money in the company coffers to retain the talent needed to overhaul what is required.
With the improvements, developers would be more interested in developing apps for the BB, and introducing more fun, cheap programs to the masses - something desperately needed, if RIM hopes to give John Q. Public an option compared against the iPhone, Android or WinMobile devices.

Rumor has it the iPhone might be next with a BlackBerry Messenger-type application for its phones. Some might poo-poo that as "finally Apple delivers something RIM has had for years" - but that's missing the bigger picture. Point being, all the device manufacturers are steadily improving their phones - adding new features, new technologys, and new OS improvements. Granted, Apple might have it easier than most when it comes to improving the software for their phones - they only utilize one body style, thus freeing up the moneys needed for such improvements against what would otherwise be money needed for design and die costs associated with a new phone body model.

But lesser companies have surprised us of late, too.

Take a look at the Palm Pre. Palm- remember those guys? Floundering in the water, really hadn't come up with anything new for years - barely holding their own as the smartphone marketplace heated up... Even THEY managed to utilize a modern-type OS and interface for their new phone...that reguardless whether you like it or not, you have to give them just a little bit of respect for the effort.

All in all, it to me paints a picture that RIM had better get off its Duff, and start churning out not only new BlackBerry body-design of the month revisions - but they had better address a LOT of the concerns over their Operating System - otherwise, they could find themselves trying to sell 15 different versions of the same tired thing, which people have passed over in favor of truely modern and innovative Operating Systems and their supported development communities.

RIM is trying to do a lot of things right, I will give them that - as a Mac user, I'm thrilled they *FINALLY* decided to get real about releasing a Mac-compatable BBmanager. I could moan about the length of the wait... But I won't.
Their acquiring TorchMobile means a webkit browser is "in the works" - yay for us, but don't let it ride too long, please.
I can't even speculate when RIM might go about with a total fresh OS overhaul, when something like that might be released... But I hope it's implementation will be done out of RIM's desire to keep ahead of the competition and to give the BlackBerry a solid lead in the marketplace, as opposed to a reactionary development hurriedly imposed when it's all too late.

One can hide behind "but we have better push-email and security" for only so long.

2 cents.