02-06-13 07:57 AM
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  1. richardat's Avatar
    [QUOTE=bambinoitaliano;7870202]I think there's two level when you talk about invention. Simply a creation of something original that does not yet exist. In this case, Apple did not do that with any of it's hardwares.

    Hi bambinoitaliano, Ok, but WHAT do you mean by "something original that does not yet exist"? As I was writing in my OP....that''s a strange proposition in the tech world these days. The Apple, the Mac, the iphone.... none of these things "existed" before...in some cases there were not even real competitors/alternatives at the time. Put another way, that may help us proceed (because you sound sincere), if you would like to talk about RIM specifically, could you name the products you feel RIM invented that did not exist before?

    The other level has to do with the loosely use term invention within the business industry as a form of advertising. The general public bought into the word use by companies like Apple. Because who ever invent or create is the original maker. The term carry a lot of weight with consumers in terms of quality. Especially in a consumer driven market. Apple to it's credit manage to embed this idea into millions of it's consumers. Add to that, the company manage to initiate lawsuits against anyone and any company that even come close to resembling it's products, name and logo. Of course, the one who file the lawsuit first is the inventor right? Sadly, millions who bought into the idea without giving a second thought believe it as the fact. Just watch the Fox News if you need to know the danger of misinformation.
    Uh....I'm really not interested (in this thread) in either accusations/conspiracy about Apple's marketing, nor their litigation. Frankly, I think those myths as well. On another tangent, I'll note that more than one academic study (particularly remarkable given that academia is often thought to be utlra-liberal (North american usage)) has found that Fox news, while biased, is actually LESS biased towards the right than many other mainstream outlets are towards the left. Another study of campaign coverage found that Fox, was biased....to the LEFT - but LESS so than the the other media outlets, so as to look conservative by comparison. Of course, the methodology and nature of these studies are weighty, and lengthy, topics in their own right.
    01-22-13 05:05 PM
  2. richardat's Avatar
    Rich.....Dude....Chill man, Kevin wasn't trying to knock Apple. He's just stating what most people already know and agree with. Apple is good at what it does. Just that inventing isn't it.
    I'm not sure why you think I'm not "chill" Houshinto. I wrote that very calmly, and ONLY wrote it because I believe Kevin might not be saying that lightly, and with little thought, as of course, is the case with most internet posters. So I am curious as to his real thought process behind those statements. I'm trying to deal with.....real content and ideas....I think you know that about me...not...is Kevin being "mean"....is Kevin's intent towards Apple a 4 or 9 on the hate scale of emotion....or 5-6 on the feel-good scale of get-along....LOL. I just don't have time for that kind of fanboy emotionalism right now!

    I think you're smart enough to know....as are MANY readers here (I assume many of the silent ones who also can't be bothered with comic-book guy 15yr old level rhetoric), that this whole notion of "invention"...is.....really bizarre and problematic. Kevin doesn't post a lot, and obviously would have given such topics a lot of thought, so when he starts throwing around simple phrases about Apple not inventing anything....which sounds like the kind of simplistic fanboy rhetoric a lot of fanboys utter....but probably is NOT, I'm genuinely curious how he defines that so as to justify that kind of vague generalization! I'm sure he just threw that out, because it is a really complicated topic, and he didn't have time for more at that point.

    Now if I were to use MY definitions of "invention"....then arguably...few are "inventing" anything right now. The vast majority of companies are "inventing" copies of the iphone....now Android based companies have been adding on new bells and whistles....just as Apple also does with it's updates. The main difference being, Apple is very cautious about what it adds, and tries to keep it within the end-user design philosophy of Jobs, whereas Android...with it's numerous companies simply throws everything possilbe at the wall in an effort to get a 1 month lead on rivals, and sees what sticks! However, they are all producing "SUV"s....ever since Apple introduced the first SUV (iphone). Did Apple "invent" the SUV? Kinda.....can you search and say "hey....Motoru motors had a concept car a lot like Apple's first SUV before Apple!!!"....well sure.....and in a grand sense, Apple certainly didn't invent the automobile! The SUV/iphone was a pretty grand leap.....a complete change in user-interface paradigm, but it wasn't the first phone, nor the first smartphone. In a very similar way...I'd say RIm didn't invent the smartphone/pick-up truck (obviously, nearly all features had already been done on previous phones), but they did pioneer a new area of market and introduce a new paradigm in phones to the masses. (side note: I think maybe one could argue they "invented" push email....though this is not really a complete product, and...not very technically innovative, but it is arguably a great service that hadn't been widely available before)

    In any case, the "car" was invented long long ago, and we build on that now. As I said, complex tech products of today make such simple definitions very problematic, and if one is going to make such a statement thoughtfully, and with an legitimacy at all, one needs to define their premise, and their terms clearly. Otherwise....it's just more smoke and mirrors.... IF Kevin was really just blowing fanboy rhetoric around (and again...I doubt he would do that), THEN, I'd agree with you Housh, it was relatively non-inflammatory rhetoric....a poo sandwich on an olive branch (oddly enough, I just feel like seeing if I can say "poo") - an insult with a slightly condescending smile and pat on the back.
    01-22-13 05:33 PM
  3. houshinto#IM's Avatar
    I'm not sure why you think I'm not "chill" Houshinto. I wrote that very calmly, and ONLY wrote it because I believe Kevin might not be saying that lightly, and with little thought, as of course, is the case with most internet posters. So I am curious as to his real thought process behind those statements. I'm trying to deal with.....real content and ideas....I think you know that about me...not...is Kevin being "mean"....is Kevin's intent towards Apple a 4 or 9 on the hate scale of emotion....or 5-6 on the feel-good scale of get-along....LOL. I just don't have time for that kind of fanboy emotionalism right now!

    I think you're smart enough to know....as are MANY readers here (I assume many of the silent ones who also can't be bothered with comic-book guy 15yr old level rhetoric), that this whole notion of "invention"...is.....really bizarre and problematic. Kevin doesn't post a lot, and obviously would have given such topics a lot of thought, so when he starts throwing around simple phrases about Apple not inventing anything....which sounds like the kind of simplistic fanboy rhetoric a lot of fanboys utter....but probably is NOT, I'm genuinely curious how he defines that so as to justify that kind of vague generalization! I'm sure he just threw that out, because it is a really complicated topic, and he didn't have time for more at that point.

    Now if I were to use MY definitions of "invention"....then arguably...few are "inventing" anything right now. The vast majority of companies are "inventing" copies of the iphone....now Android based companies have been adding on new bells and whistles....just as Apple also does with it's updates. The main difference being, Apple is very cautious about what it adds, and tries to keep it within the end-user design philosophy of Jobs, whereas Android...with it's numerous companies simply throws everything possilbe at the wall in an effort to get a 1 month lead on rivals, and sees what sticks! However, they are all producing "SUV"s....ever since Apple introduced the first SUV (iphone). Did Apple "invent" the SUV? Kinda.....can you search and say "hey....Motoru motors had a concept car a lot like Apple's first SUV before Apple!!!"....well sure.....and in a grand sense, Apple certainly didn't invent the automobile! The SUV/iphone was a pretty grand leap.....a complete change in user-interface paradigm, but it wasn't the first phone, nor the first smartphone. In a very similar way...I'd say RIm didn't invent the smartphone/pick-up truck (obviously, nearly all features had already been done on previous phones), but they did pioneer a new area of market and introduce a new paradigm in phones to the masses. (side note: I think maybe one could argue they "invented" push email....though this is not really a complete product, and...not very technically innovative, but it is arguably a great service that hadn't been widely available before)

    In any case, the "car" was invented long long ago, and we build on that now. As I said, complex tech products of today make such simple definitions very problematic, and if one is going to make such a statement thoughtfully, and with an legitimacy at all, one needs to define their premise, and their terms clearly. Otherwise....it's just more smoke and mirrors.... IF Kevin was really just blowing fanboy rhetoric around (and again...I doubt he would do that), THEN, I'd agree with you Housh, it was relatively non-inflammatory rhetoric....a poo sandwich on an olive branch (oddly enough, I just feel like seeing if I can say "poo") - an insult with a slightly condescending smile and pat on the back.
    Boy.....for someone who's "Uh....I'm really not interested (in this thread)".....you sure have a lot of time for all these long replies. The length of your posts don't convey veracity, legitimacy, or in my humble opinion rationality. It only suggests a need to ramble on and on and on.

    But it's your time, so please do with it as you may. I cannot wait for the next installment!
    01-23-13 01:56 AM
  4. tack's Avatar
    This whole thread is pretty much trolling, and if it were a video about RIM, it would have never made it 10 min.

    Petty
    01-23-13 02:53 AM
  5. mamak111's Avatar
    Just a variation on how Apples reputation is fast sinking.
    Alot of consumers are getting fed up with Apples draconian "You paid for it but we still own it" policy.
    Last edited by Branta; 01-23-13 at 07:34 AM. Reason: Link to Online gambling site removed
    01-23-13 07:16 AM
  6. kbz1960's Avatar
    I see this is going well.
    southlander likes this.
    01-23-13 07:45 AM
  7. mamak111's Avatar
    The link was to a blog article on the site . Sorry Branta.
    Here is the infographic from that page:
    Attached Thumbnails What a rip off RIM steals everything!-apples-middle-finger-infographic.jpg  
    01-23-13 08:21 AM
  8. richardat's Avatar
    Boy.....for someone who's "Uh....I'm really not interested (in this thread)".....you sure have a lot of time for all these long replies.
    This is a misquote. EXTREMELY DISHONEST OF YOU HOUSHINTO. The correct quote is:

    Uh....I'm really not interested (in this thread) in either accusations/conspiracy about Apple's marketing, nor their litigation. Frankly, I think those myths as well. On another tangent.....

    The correct quote clearly shows that I was talking about not discussing THOSE topics "in this thread", and as further proof of fhat, I did not address those issues further. This is SHAMEFUL behavior Houshinto. You lessen us all by employing tactics like this. Seriously. Crackberry deserves better.

    The length of your posts don't convey veracity, legitimacy, or in my humble opinion rationality. It only suggests a need to ramble on and on and on.
    First, the "length" of my posts aren't intended to convey any of those things, that is instead assigned to the content. The entire notion that length = validity seems rather schoolboyish to me.
    But it's your time, so please do with it as you may. I cannot wait for the next installment!
    It certainly is, however, this follow-up post, is so lacking in content, and so rife with jibes, it strongly suggests to me that you have no interest in meaningful discussion but rather are trying to troll me. I had thought to give you the benefit of the doubt, and talk to you as thoughtful peer (and I believe my last post is evidence of that), but I believe that was an error - your follow-up post stands in testament to that. Good day.
    mikeo007 likes this.
    01-23-13 03:49 PM
  9. Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes's Avatar
    100% agree with houshinto
    houshinto#IM likes this.
    01-23-13 04:49 PM
  10. houshinto#IM's Avatar
    This is a misquote ....

    blah
    blah (sorry, but I figure I spare everyone of the rant) -houshinto
    blah

    I had thought to give you the benefit of the doubt, and talk to you as thoughtful peer (and I believe my last post is evidence of that), but I believe that was an error - your follow-up post stands in testament to that. Good day.
    You feel better now?....I'm glad you got that out of your system....

    Pardon my disbelief but.....your generosity in granting me audience as a "thoughtful peer" is as shallow as your attempts to paint yourself as rational and fairminded, when it comes your views towards your beloved Apple.

    In summation, we disagree, and we're still equals in terms of being crackberry members but you can be a bit of a drama queen as evidenced by your last post.

    All the best
    01-23-13 09:30 PM
  11. Zidentia's Avatar
    Sorry,
    But your theory is completely off here. Apple is very good at ecosystems and using their cash to innovate on the back of other companies inventions. Innovation has many parallel meanings but trying to collectively create a soup mixture of all of the different technologies and call it new is the definition of tech blindness. Microsoft has created more new products than Apple ever has but they are very poor at implementing it. Apple has become a design house that uses existing design's and tries to create a more refined evolution of it. They are good at it but to suggest they are innovative is stretching the reality of design philosophy. There are numerous companies that do what Apple does and some research will show you that. Again Apple is a design house that creates a very solid ecosystem using the designs they ask others to make which are evolutionary takes on existing designs. Taking this into account you can now understand why they have stalled in market share. They simply have destroyed their own resource of ideas by suing to stop others from creating products thus stifling innovation.

    Stealing is not the correct term anyways. Technology states it is paying om-age much like fashion. "We understand you created the GUI Xerox but what were you doing with it?"
    (ugh...yuck...sucked back in...but at least it's in response to the founder)

    I agree with you Skeever.

    Kevin...really really shocked by your post. It seems irrational to me , but perhaps the problem is your definition of "innovation" vs "invention"? Could you elaborate more? With complex products like smartphones, computers, etc. nobody actually "invents" the final product. It's the culmination of countless small inventions, and generally these days, almost every successful product had lesser known precursors which were essentially early models. So it's rather disingenuous to take a certain stage of the evolution of technology, label it something (ie...THIS is a "smartphone"!) and then pretend that product is a new "invention". Especially, when, as I pointed out, there are often direct precursors featuring most/all of the features...which of course it the case with the "smartphone" itself. By that token, the iphone, with it's touchscreen/OS/apps, was probably a bigger leap over previous smartphones, than the original "smartphone" was over previous phones. (which phone that was is debatable of course, but I'd say the first successful smartphone was BB).

    Moreover, in looking at the history of Apple, I think it fair to say that they've been first, or nearly first, in adding/using/combining many techs. From the original Apple computer, and the Mac itself - these products shook the industry deeply, and it took years to see the overall impact, and just how trendsetting they became. When you talk about Apple building "on the backs of others", it really makes me wonder how you can characterize them that way. Besides the Apple and Mac I just mentioned, As skeever mentioned the ipod really wasn't like that - the MP3 market was really a mess before the ipod. The tablet market....well that is even more telling example, as Apple was largely mocked by the industry and fans before it was released. There certainly wasn't a market for that in place. In fact, I'd say the industry has been LARGELY thriving off Apple's innovation into new territory in the last 5-10 years. Whether it be the smartphones, iOS, Ipad, or ultrabooks.....Apple has been creating the markets that others have been trying to jump into.

    I own exactly 3 Apple products: an Apple 2e, an ipod shuffle, and an iphone 4. During that time, I've had....dozens of PC's, a multitude of phones, several laptops....representing, HP, Samsung, Motorola, HTC, Sony...and so many others. I've generally avoided Apple products, but I cannot, with any intellectual dishonesty or thoughtfulness detract from their "invention" or "innovation" or their place in the industry in bringing new products and tech to the market. On the whole, I'd say they've been more of a trendsetter/innovator/inventor than any other company in the industry I can think o f off the top of my head, but of course, that again depends on exactly what your argument is, and how you define "invention"! Could you elaborate more on what your take is?
    02-03-13 10:13 AM
  12. allhookedup's Avatar
    It all comes down to this simple truth:

    "Good artists borrow, great artists steal" ~ Pablo Picasso



    Sent from my 9780
    02-03-13 10:31 AM
  13. southlander's Avatar
    The guy kind of lost me when he says Steve Wozniak invented lots of things -- but that wasn't Apple. Wozniak's inventions, for Apple, for use in its products = Apple Inventions by my logic.
    Last edited by southlander; 02-03-13 at 01:41 PM.
    02-03-13 10:44 AM
  14. DJRikko's Avatar
    you can invent all the things you want.... but if you consumers don't realize how the product will benefit their lives, what you invented will NEVER take off.

    Apple does a great job explaining why a consumer wants/needs a product and how it will improve their lives... that is why their products 'borrowed' from others do so well.

    basically, an inventor can invent all they want, but if they can't communicate with consumers, what they invented is basically DOA. That's why you have a marketing to communicate to consumers about the benefits of the invention.

    Apple is an incredible marketing/tech company.

    haters gotta hate.
    The fact they had better marketing than the inventors still doesn't give Apple the right to sue everyone out of business... it's shameless, considering they actually did not invent anything. That's what people hate. Being a fanboy only encourages them to continue and have the masses not question them. The video is right... they are holding technology back for the sake of design.
    02-03-13 05:42 PM
  15. Zidentia's Avatar
    That is essentially what is happening in the market. As they patent troll everyone or buy the rest innovation suffered due to fear or lack of resources. If you study market trends this is a similar tactic (less the fervent litigation) Microsoft used to increase market share and as time went on there was contraction in the market which allowed Apple to slip back in (with MS help) and try the closed ecosystem approach which obviously worked. One of Microsoft's biggest failings is the class of orphan ideas they fail to support or give the needed path to completion and this clearly is a failing of leadership in the approach to a divided product road. The Windows team has/had too much influence of product releases and leadership (specifically Steve Balmer) was more focused on autonomy that offering solid innovation and meeting changing consumer expectations.

    Blackberry, lest anyone not see, is a closed ecosystem as they control OS, hardware and application programming. They as well ignored the change in expectations and plowed the familiar furrow too long. Apple is in much the same position now. Steve Jobs, regardless of personal feelings was one of the best at actualizing his own expectations and demanding what he thought it should be. he pushed people to their extremes. Which is what polarizing leaders do. Tim cook is more of an operations person and operating in that vein he looks for profit not necessarily category killers. Steve Jobs recognized this and tried to create a decent product line to cover this. Ives is similar to Jobs but does not have the drive he had.

    Thorsten Heinz seems, so far, to be a mix of operations and strategy. He has the acumen to listen to and acquire the talent needed to get the product launched. To date he has done this with good success but to be fair he is looking at a long term strategy which is the best way to ensure profit but if implemented incorrectly does not allow correction for market change quickly enough. Again this is something Jobs recognized and used to Apples advantage. This is Steve Balmers biggest failing is in the fact that he looks at the business by segment instead of the cohesive outcome of software, hardware and operations. The main reason the Surface is even here is the push behind the scenes by Bill Gates and some product vice presidents.

    To summarize we need to be aware that Apple is indeed a company of opportunity and adept business choices. Are they innovative? If you stretch the meaning somewhat then yes they are but specifically in recognizing the market chasms and wrenching change by use of economic force. Microsoft may be on the verge of structural change if they get new leadership direction either from the current leader or a new player. Blackberry is well suited for long term growth but will they continue to focus on the short term opportunities? in addition you have to watch Google as they wangle the Android players towards a unified structure under the Project X phone platform.



    The fact they had better marketing than the inventors still doesn't give Apple the right to sue everyone out of business... it's shameless, considering they actually did not invent anything. That's what people hate. Being a fanboy only encourages them to continue and have the masses not question them. The video is right... they are holding technology back for the sake of design.
    02-05-13 10:07 AM
  16. Emu the Foo's Avatar
    And good friend of mine that's an iphone user said this when his iphone was able to update OTA, " when blackberry does it people talk smack. When apple does it its called innovation."
    02-05-13 03:24 PM
  17. uniquest's Avatar
    Ignorance is bliss. How childish. Did Apple say they ever invented anything? Here's a sampling of what they did contribute to the tech world.
    iPod
    iPhone
    iPad
    MacBook Air
    rMBP
    And the list goes on and on.

    "Inventions"? Nope. Good enough to make them the worlds largest tech company because consumers love their products. You betcha.
    02-05-13 05:35 PM
  18. tonyrenier's Avatar
    I've seen that video before, it didn't surprize me considering Jobs' belief that theft was much simpler than invention. It was Woz. who made that company, Jobs was a good salesman.
    02-06-13 07:57 AM
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