02-06-13 07:57 AM
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  1. bambinoitaliano's Avatar
    (ugh...yuck...sucked back in...but at least it's in response to the founder)

    I agree with you Skeever.

    Kevin...really really shocked by your post. It seems irrational to me , but perhaps the problem is your definition of "innovation" vs "invention"? Could you elaborate more? With complex products like smartphones, computers, etc. nobody actually "invents" the final product. It's the culmination of countless small inventions, and generally these days, almost every successful product had lesser known precursors which were essentially early models. So it's rather disingenuous to take a certain stage of the evolution of technology, label it something (ie...THIS is a "smartphone"!) and then pretend that product is a new "invention". Especially, when, as I pointed out, there are often direct precursors featuring most/all of the features...which of course it the case with the "smartphone" itself. By that token, the iphone, with it's touchscreen/OS/apps, was probably a bigger leap over previous smartphones, than the original "smartphone" was over previous phones. (which phone that was is debatable of course, but I'd say the first successful smartphone was BB).

    Moreover, in looking at the history of Apple, I think it fair to say that they've been first, or nearly first, in adding/using/combining many techs. From the original Apple computer, and the Mac itself - these products shook the industry deeply, and it took years to see the overall impact, and just how trendsetting they became. When you talk about Apple building "on the backs of others", it really makes me wonder how you can characterize them that way. Besides the Apple and Mac I just mentioned, As skeever mentioned the ipod really wasn't like that - the MP3 market was really a mess before the ipod. The tablet market....well that is even more telling example, as Apple was largely mocked by the industry and fans before it was released. There certainly wasn't a market for that in place. In fact, I'd say the industry has been LARGELY thriving off Apple's innovation into new territory in the last 5-10 years. Whether it be the smartphones, iOS, Ipad, or ultrabooks.....Apple has been creating the markets that others have been trying to jump into.

    I own exactly 3 Apple products: an Apple 2e, an ipod shuffle, and an iphone 4. During that time, I've had....dozens of PC's, a multitude of phones, several laptops....representing, HP, Samsung, Motorola, HTC, Sony...and so many others. I've generally avoided Apple products, but I cannot, with any intellectual dishonesty or thoughtfulness detract from their "invention" or "innovation" or their place in the industry in bringing new products and tech to the market. On the whole, I'd say they've been more of a trendsetter/innovator/inventor than any other company in the industry I can think o f off the top of my head, but of course, that again depends on exactly what your argument is, and how you define "invention"! Could you elaborate more on what your take is?
    I think there's two level when you talk about invention. Simply a creation of something original that does not yet exist. In this case, Apple did not do that with any of it's hardwares. The other level has to do with the loosely use term invention within the business industry as a form of advertising. The general public bought into the word use by companies like Apple. Because who ever invent or create is the original maker. The term carry a lot of weight with consumers in terms of quality. Especially in a consumer driven market. Apple to it's credit manage to embed this idea into millions of it's consumers. Add to that, the company manage to initiate lawsuits against anyone and any company that even come close to resembling it's products, name and logo. Of course, the one who file the lawsuit first is the inventor right? Sadly, millions who bought into the idea without giving a second thought believe it as the fact. Just watch the Fox News if you need to know the danger of misinformation.
    01-20-13 07:56 AM
  2. Skeevecr's Avatar
    I went through two of these before ipod was "invented"
    That say more about the lack of quality of those early archos devices if you could go through two of them in a year, but I wasn't claiming apple were the first as that is never the way they work, their strength has been about getting in early enough with a device that is polished enough that the general public overlook the limitations apple has placed on it e.g. those early ipods were firewire, mac-only and had worse sound quality or battery life than alternatives from the likes of creative, archos or diamond.
    01-20-13 08:58 AM
  3. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    While they are not inventing things, to label what they do is jump in to an established market seems a little unfair on things like the ipod or the ipad where neither of the markets were established and they came in and took over them with smart marketing that does a great job of hiding their limitations.
    That's their innovation: they take existing tech, they package it a way that people can use, and they market it in a way that people understand. There isn't really a company that I can think of who does a better job at it.

    Yeah, I hate when they get credit by people for inventing thins they didn't invent, but they also get overlooked by people who have a 'tech only' brain for what they do.
    fernandez21 and jakie55 like this.
    01-20-13 09:30 AM
  4. bluetroll's Avatar
    you can invent all the things you want.... but if you consumers don't realize how the product will benefit their lives, what you invented will NEVER take off.

    Apple does a great job explaining why a consumer wants/needs a product and how it will improve their lives... that is why their products 'borrowed' from others do so well.

    basically, an inventor can invent all they want, but if they can't communicate with consumers, what they invented is basically DOA. That's why you have a marketing to communicate to consumers about the benefits of the invention.

    Apple is an incredible marketing/tech company.

    haters gotta hate.
    jakie55 and anon1727506 like this.
    01-20-13 11:27 AM
  5. YorkieRay's Avatar
    From the time when I used a personal computer for the first time, an Apple IIe in the mid 80s, to the time of Steve Jobs death, I would say that I was an Apple fan. What changed? I simply studied the facts about Apple. I was initially horrified at Apple's pricing of the iPhone and the huge profits they are making as a result. Steve Jobs once said that the iPod Touch was, "the iPhone without a contract". So why does the iPhone cost more than double the price of an equivalent iPod Touch?
    I've seen claims that Apple invented the tablet computer, when the truth is that they were not even the first to call a tablet the iPad.

    Check Out LG’s iPad… From 2001 | Gizmodo Australia

    They also did not originate the names iPhone and iOS.
    I had seen that video before and it's always worth a watch.
    In the end it was Steve Jobs himself who once said, "We (Apple) have always been shameless about stealing great ideas".
    jakie55 likes this.
    01-20-13 11:49 AM
  6. megajo123's Avatar

    For those of you too young to remember the ad here is a link



    .


    This video scares me :O and the special effects look similar to those in SuperMan
    01-20-13 12:09 PM
  7. bambinoitaliano's Avatar
    [QUOTE=bluetroll;7870633]you can invent all the things you want.... but if you consumers don't realize how the product will benefit their lives, what you invented will NEVER take off.

    Apple does a great job explaining why a consumer wants/needs a product and how it will improve their lives... that is why their products 'borrowed' from others do so well.

    basically, an inventor can invent all they want, but if they can't communicate with consumers, what they invented is basically DOA. That's why you have a marketing to communicate to consumers about the benefits of the invention.

    Apple is an incredible marketing/tech company.

    haters gotta hate.[/QUOTE
    We are talking about Apple is not inventor of technology that the mass seems to believe in. I own a couple of Apple products and love them both. The stupidity of it is you got individuals who seem to think that any tech company can possess the be all and end all technology. The video the OP posted cited the fact that's not the case regardless of how successful Apple is. The fanatics seem to believe other wise. I'm sure Apple is more than happy to perpetuate that myth. No one is arguing Apple produce inferior products. The same can be said about RIM. This is not a pissing contest, nor drop your trousers and flip out the measuring tape contest. Be a fan not a fanatic. Don't lose your sanity over the ever evolving science and technology. It will forever evolve long after you are gone.
    jakie55 likes this.
    01-20-13 12:23 PM
  8. Blacklatino's Avatar
    LOL. Matters not to me if the platforms steal from each other. If it means I will get a better BlackBerry or other device- go for it. They can work it out in court. Besides, I would have had second thoughts about a full-touch BlackBerry 6 years ago if I hadn't owned several iPhones. Many of us were satisfied with the keyboard and still are. Reminds me of the devices that were put on the market that looked similar to a BlackBerry Curve a few years ago probably due to the popularity of the BlackBerries.
    01-20-13 04:31 PM
  9. TomJasper's Avatar
    Lol, I stopped reading after the first 1/2 para, so bloody long. Tired now,lol.

    I wonder if he watched the video or just dove into that rant.
    01-20-13 07:19 PM
  10. TomJasper's Avatar
    Lol, reminds me of of Clockwork Orange
    This video scares me :O and the special effects look similar to those in SuperMan
    01-20-13 07:25 PM
  11. darkehawke's Avatar
    seen the video before.

    think its an important thing to keep in mind when we think of all the patent wars. i always think of Apple as Thomas Edison, always getting credited for other people's work. its downright disgusting how they act as a company.

    it's starting to backfire on them now, i've heard a few isheep seriously considering dropping Apple as a result of their practises.
    01-20-13 07:26 PM
  12. Elite1's Avatar
    I think a few people may be missing the point.
    When this topic arises, I never think of the overall hardware. I think of features and UI.

    Apple innovates a lot. Maybe they don't invent as often, but they don't need too.
    What annoys me and many others is how the Apple-centric consumers believe that any feature Apple introduces is their invention.
    Hey, remember when Apple invented Copy & Paste for the iPhone a couple years ago?
    "Retina display" is another example. Countless consumers believe this is more than a high screen res. My contractor is drunk on the Apple kool-aid. He tells me how retina display is revolutionary "because the pixels are layered." *smh*

    Anyway, I don't have a problem with Apple for this, anymore than I blame Starbucks for the average consumer's bad taste in coffee. If you sell and people want to buy, more power to ya.

    I was flabbergasted just yesterday by a new iPhone commercial advertising a do-not-disturb sleep mode. How revolutionary... (But it was an entertaining ad!)
    01-20-13 08:54 PM
  13. kfh227's Avatar
    Apple is an integrator of new tech. that's about it.
    jakie55 likes this.
    01-20-13 08:57 PM
  14. gjohnsto's Avatar
    (ugh...yuck...sucked back in...but at least it's in response to the founder)

    I agree with you Skeever.

    Kevin...really really shocked by your post. It seems irrational to me , but perhaps the problem is your definition of "innovation" vs "invention"? Could you elaborate more? With complex products like smartphones, computers, etc. nobody actually "invents" the final product. It's the culmination of countless small inventions, and generally these days, almost every successful product had lesser known precursors which were essentially early models. So it's rather disingenuous to take a certain stage of the evolution of technology, label it something (ie...THIS is a "smartphone"!) and then pretend that product is a new "invention". Especially, when, as I pointed out, there are often direct precursors featuring most/all of the features...which of course it the case with the "smartphone" itself. By that token, the iphone, with it's touchscreen/OS/apps, was probably a bigger leap over previous smartphones, than the original "smartphone" was over previous phones. (which phone that was is debatable of course, but I'd say the first successful smartphone was BB).

    Moreover, in looking at the history of Apple, I think it fair to say that they've been first, or nearly first, in adding/using/combining many techs. From the original Apple computer, and the Mac itself - these products shook the industry deeply, and it took years to see the overall impact, and just how trendsetting they became. When you talk about Apple building "on the backs of others", it really makes me wonder how you can characterize them that way. Besides the Apple and Mac I just mentioned, As skeever mentioned the ipod really wasn't like that - the MP3 market was really a mess before the ipod. The tablet market....well that is even more telling example, as Apple was largely mocked by the industry and fans before it was released. There certainly wasn't a market for that in place. In fact, I'd say the industry has been LARGELY thriving off Apple's innovation into new territory in the last 5-10 years. Whether it be the smartphones, iOS, Ipad, or ultrabooks.....Apple has been creating the markets that others have been trying to jump into.

    I own exactly 3 Apple products: an Apple 2e, an ipod shuffle, and an iphone 4. During that time, I've had....dozens of PC's, a multitude of phones, several laptops....representing, HP, Samsung, Motorola, HTC, Sony...and so many others. I've generally avoided Apple products, but I cannot, with any intellectual dishonesty or thoughtfulness detract from their "invention" or "innovation" or their place in the industry in bringing new products and tech to the market. On the whole, I'd say they've been more of a trendsetter/innovator/inventor than any other company in the industry I can think o f off the top of my head, but of course, that again depends on exactly what your argument is, and how you define "invention"! Could you elaborate more on what your take is?
    Alright - I apologize for the car analogy (although it isn't a car analogy, so much as an innovation vs invention analogy).
    The car market, before ford, was not standardized or mature, but it was established - There were many cars and many manufacturers. In fact, there were cars that used gas, diesel and even electric. There were all sorts of different designs and design elements, but no established standards.
    The model T did for cars what the iPod did for MP3 players.
    Ford did not invent the internal combustion engine, the car, or even the assembly line. However, they sure did a good job of putting a whole bunch of different inventions together in a winning formula - making gas powered cars on the assembly line was the innovation that launched the consumer automobile market.
    Instead of being reactive, be reflective. Kevin is not attacking apple, in fact, I'm sure he'd agree there is nothing wrong with what apple did (and in fact would applaud their innovation); however, Ford did not claim to invent the automobile, and if they did, I don't think people would stand for that kind of misrepresentation.
    Last edited by gjohnsto; 01-21-13 at 12:26 AM. Reason: clarity
    jakie55 and pcguy514 like this.
    01-21-13 12:20 AM
  15. jakie55's Avatar
    Right up front, I will say that Apple builds great products...their sales figures reflect that. (Look at the sales figures of the Lisa, or some of the pre Imacs, to indicate that people rationally do vote with their wallets, and almost caused the bankruptcy back when) My issues is when a company resorts to utilizing courts and heavy handed tactics to maintain their position. I am all for protecting one's intellectual property, but not when the patents are so vague as to be, to me, meaningless. Today's tech companies build on previous innovations, giving us, the consumer, the benefit. I am hoping for many years of HEALTHY competition between Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Nokia, and RIMM. (and any others coming in from right field,that I am not aware of)
    01-21-13 12:37 AM
  16. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    Just a reminder that, at least in the US, as an inventor you are entitled to a Patent if your method/machine/composition of matter is novel OR non-obvious. Nowadays there are very few truly new, novel inventions. Most are often non-obvious combinations or improvements of known steps/components. However to fairly evaluate whether or not it was 'obvious', you have to rely only on your (assuming you are of ordinary skill in the field) knowledge at that time (usually several years before most read about it on any tech blog). In hindsight, most good ideas seem obvious,.. take away that, and you can fairly gauge what is referred to as 'the state of the art.' I would also like to point out that there do exist such things as Design patents (distinct from Utility patents) which seek protection only for how a thing looks (not its functionality). Lots of Steve Jobs' patents (or the at least the 'famous' ones, are design patents )... And yes, they cover things like the "round edges".
    jakie55 likes this.
    01-21-13 12:54 AM
  17. Deanig_12's Avatar
    tech is tech shhesh wether its blackberry apple samsung nokie and what not thier all diffrent in there own lil ways but mmybe the same in other ways
    01-21-13 05:25 AM
  18. KiLuMaNaTi's Avatar
    I am really just kidding. BUT there has been NUMEROUS threads by different people stating why RIM sucks and why they are stealing ideas from the magnificent and wonderful Apple. SO I came across this video today and though it was quite interesting and people might enjoy it. It is entitled "Has Apple Really Ever Invented Anything???"

    ENJOY! Trolls and non trolls alike!

    I watched this video a little while ago because I think it might have been on a story or blog post on here. Anyways after I saw it i was interested in learning a bit about some of the other products and I found this story. I'm sure a lot of tech fans know about this but it's still interesting.

    I won't post the whole story since it's pretty long but here is the address. Folklore.org: Macintosh Stories: A Rich Neighbor Named Xerox

    In November 1983, we heard that Microsoft made a surprising announcement at Comdex, the industry's premier trade show, held twice a year in Las Vegas. Microsoft announced a new, mouse-based system graphical user interface environment called Windows, competing directly with an earlier environment announced by Personal Software called "Vision". They also announced a mouse-based option for Microsoft Word. When Steve Jobs found out about Windows, he went ballistic.

    "Get Gates down here immediately", he fumed to Mike Boich, Mac's original evangelist who was in charge of our relationships with third party developers. "He needs to explain this, and it better be good. I want him in this room by tomorrow afternoon, or else!"

    And, to my surprise, I was invited to a meeting in that conference room the next afternoon, where Bill Gates had somehow manifested, alone, surrounded by ten Apple employees. I think Steve wanted me there because I had evidence of Neil asking about the internals, but that never came up, so I was just a fascinated observer as Steve started yelling at Bill, asking him why he violated their agreement.

    "You're ripping us off!", Steve shouted, raising his voice even higher. "I trusted you, and now you're stealing from us!"

    But Bill Gates just stood there coolly, looking Steve directly in the eye, before starting to speak in his squeaky voice.

    "Well, Steve, I think there's more than one way of looking at it. I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it."

    How did apple become the "cool" company?
    pmccartney likes this.
    01-21-13 06:31 AM
  19. taz323's Avatar
    great video, gonna have show this to a few people
    01-21-13 06:47 AM
  20. Elite1's Avatar
    01-21-13 01:01 PM
  21. anon(2325196)'s Avatar
    what's an iphone? what's apple? who cares? i don't, bring me bb10.
    01-21-13 01:25 PM
  22. anon(2325196)'s Avatar
    RIM ROCKS - been rocking since the 80's yo, word
    01-21-13 01:35 PM
  23. anon(2325196)'s Avatar
    "RIM has it's fans" - people said "apple has it's fans" in 1997, and everybody laughed at them when they invested in apple at that time - who's laughing now? - anyways, people will laugh it up about RIM now, but they're fully prepared to take themselves into the future by 10 years in fact. this platform will carry RIM 10 years into the future, starting Jan 30th. That is all. invest now, this won't be happening again for a very long time. 10 years actually.
    01-21-13 01:38 PM
  24. houshinto#IM's Avatar
    (ugh...yuck...sucked back in...but at least it's in response to the founder)

    I agree with you Skeever.

    Kevin...really really shocked by your post. It seems irrational to me , but perhaps the problem is your definition of "innovation" vs "invention"? Could you elaborate more? With complex products like smartphones, computers, etc. nobody actually "invents" the final product. It's the culmination of countless small inventions, and generally these days, almost every successful product had lesser known precursors which were essentially early models. So it's rather disingenuous to take a certain stage of the evolution of technology, label it something (ie...THIS is a "smartphone"!) and then pretend that product is a new "invention". Especially, when, as I pointed out, there are often direct precursors featuring most/all of the features...which of course it the case with the "smartphone" itself. By that token, the iphone, with it's touchscreen/OS/apps, was probably a bigger leap over previous smartphones, than the original "smartphone" was over previous phones. (which phone that was is debatable of course, but I'd say the first successful smartphone was BB).

    Moreover, in looking at the history of Apple, I think it fair to say that they've been first, or nearly first, in adding/using/combining many techs. From the original Apple computer, and the Mac itself - these products shook the industry deeply, and it took years to see the overall impact, and just how trendsetting they became. When you talk about Apple building "on the backs of others", it really makes me wonder how you can characterize them that way. Besides the Apple and Mac I just mentioned, As skeever mentioned the ipod really wasn't like that - the MP3 market was really a mess before the ipod. The tablet market....well that is even more telling example, as Apple was largely mocked by the industry and fans before it was released. There certainly wasn't a market for that in place. In fact, I'd say the industry has been LARGELY thriving off Apple's innovation into new territory in the last 5-10 years. Whether it be the smartphones, iOS, Ipad, or ultrabooks.....Apple has been creating the markets that others have been trying to jump into.

    I own exactly 3 Apple products: an Apple 2e, an ipod shuffle, and an iphone 4. During that time, I've had....dozens of PC's, a multitude of phones, several laptops....representing, HP, Samsung, Motorola, HTC, Sony...and so many others. I've generally avoided Apple products, but I cannot, with any intellectual dishonesty or thoughtfulness detract from their "invention" or "innovation" or their place in the industry in bringing new products and tech to the market. On the whole, I'd say they've been more of a trendsetter/innovator/inventor than any other company in the industry I can think o f off the top of my head, but of course, that again depends on exactly what your argument is, and how you define "invention"! Could you elaborate more on what your take is?
    Rich.....Dude....Chill man, Kevin wasn't trying to knock Apple. He's just stating what most people already know and agree with. Apple is good at what it does. Just that inventing isn't it.
    01-21-13 01:50 PM
  25. anon(2325196)'s Avatar
    i'm serious, INVEST IF YOU WANT TO BE RICH, or if you like to see money grow over a period of time, you should invest NOW, or tomorrow when the markets open (might save 2 bucks a share tomorrow) but then gain BIG TIME in the future) - near or far.
    01-21-13 01:57 PM
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