[anon(3983727)]

Still see the "it's only marketing" comments.

Consumers aren't the silly putty some folks seem to think they are. Even if marketing alone gets them in the door, it doesn't keep them loyal. A good product does.

Reality disproves this theory.
Time and time again popular preference has NOTHING to do with quality or a superior product. Brand loyalty is emotionally driven rather than logical.

[DJ BigToe]

Still see the "it's only marketing" comments.

Consumers aren't the silly putty some folks seem to think they are. Even if marketing alone gets them in the door, it doesn't keep them loyal. A good product does.

My guess as to why people stick with what they know, is just that. People stick with what they know. The marketing got them to buy. After a year or two of using it, they got use to it, so they stick with it. Plus, I'm going out on a limb here, but I think a lot of iphone users also have ipods/ipads. Seeing how iphones work well with other apple products, it would make sense for those people to stick with it.

I recall standing in line for a new SG3 (98 cents, thanksgiving sale) and the lady behind me said she would rather pay more for the new iphone at that time, than get the SG3, because she already had an iphone and didn't want to go through the hassle of changing everything.

In the end, I think the answer to the original question of this thread is, people stick with iphone because it's easier to do so.

[cgk]

Ideas aren't inventions. But they can lead to them.

As far as your definition of innovation, that sounds more like improvement to me.

The problem seems to be is that you are using terms in a layman's way - which is fine (similarly to how people science theory means idea and fact means true in scientific terms) but I'm telling you the orthodox way its used in both industry and academic research (innovation isn't my main area as an academic that's mobility and the digital economy but there is enough of an overlap that I have to read around the topic alot).

Let's just agree to disagree on the matter.

[LokWaiYeen]

Simple to use. Some people think Android is too busy.

[cgk]

As for high return rate, nothing has been proven that the returns were any higher than any other device. Articles were posted claiming more devices were being returned than sold but Blackberry quickly responded and disputed the claim.

This is an ongoing crackberry myth - those stories were absolutely true for the claims they made. Here's what happened.

An firm of analysts (dewitler Fenton) claimed that "for some retailers" that returns were outstripping demand. BBRY denied it.

However go forward a couple of years and the analyst from Dewilter Fenton was arrested and charged with insider trading. How was he charged with insider trading? Because he knew the claims were true because a exec from a Verizon franchise (Trustzone) was giving him the sales data (in exchange for cash). There was never any dispute at the trial that the data was true. If I remember correctly he didn't get jail time but the Exec got five months.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

It was a more than a year ago, but I remember going to a website that let you compare different phones- processor speed, screen resolution, memory capacity etc. My wife was looking at a Samsung Galaxy 5 and a comparable Iphone. Because I was thinking of getting one, I throw the Passport in as well. I don't remember actual numbers, but I do recall not seeing anything that stood out on the Iphone.

Posted via CB10

On paper, the iPhones specs may not really shine. You have to look at the end results... and with the iPhone's hardware set combined with how well iOS is optimized to work with that hardware set, it's hard to get the same results out of generic chipsets and Android that is meant to work on a huge range of hardware. The iPhone might not have the best of any one category, but the overall package is usually better. Some Android OEM might come up with a great Camera that mages to beat Apple's on DxOMark scores... but then they editing software might not be nearly as good. Someone my have more cores and higher cycles on the CPU... but memory management, or Android in general can't allow it to shine in real world use.

[anon(3983727)]

This is an ongoing crackberry myth - those stories were absolutely true for the claims they made. Here's what happened.

An firm of analysts (dewitler Fenton) claimed that "for some retailers" that returns were outstripping demand. BBRY denied it.

However go forward a couple of years and the analyst from Dewilter Fenton was arrested and charged with insider trading. How was he charged with insider trading? Because he knew the claims were true because a exec from a Verizon franchise (Trustzone) was giving him the sales data (in exchange for cash). There was never any dispute at the trial that the data was true. If I remember correctly he didn't get jail time but the Exec got five months.

I vaguely remember the articles. 400 or so locations for Verizon authorized retailers. i don't know if that is a large enough sample size to really make the conclusion that all returns outpaced sales.. especially when you are considering only the Verizon model back in 2003.

[cgk]

I vaguely remember the articles. 400 or so locations for Verizon authorized retailers. i don't know if that is a large enough sample size to really make the conclusion that all returns outpaced sales.. especially when you are considering only the Verizon model back in 2003.

The analyst never made that claim - it was specifically "some retailers".

[Troy Tiscareno]

Thats exactly what marketing is for. You must create a demand for a product, not wait for people to discover it. Apple made everyone think iPhone was the MUST HAVE device and that life would be much improved with it. I stand by my opinion that the app ecosystem had little to do with its lack of popularity.

BB never had the kind of money they'd have needed for the type of sustained marketing campaign that they'd have needed to overcome their negative brand image - not even close.

But let's say that they did: what amazing, must-have features would average consumers have found compelling enough to leave their respective ecosystems had BB10 been marketed as you suggest?

[xtremeled]

It's a dumbed down smart phone, with a bunch of apps people think they need. Great marketing, having people thinking something 2 years old, is new and innovative.

Posted via CB10

This is quite possibly the dumbest statement ever made on this forum. You do realize, perhaps you dont, that it was the lack of apps that killed BB10. A lack of apps, an unfinished OS, average build quality at best, the inability to catch up. Yes, to catch up. Perhaps you can expand on why an iPhone is not new and / or innovative.

[Tre Lawrence]

On paper, the iPhones specs may not really shine. You have to look at the end results... and with the iPhone's hardware set combined with how well iOS is optimized to work with that hardware set, it's hard to get the same results out of generic chipsets and Android that is meant to work on a huge range of hardware. The iPhone might not have the best of any one category, but the overall package is usually better. Some Android OEM might come up with a great Camera that mages to beat Apple's on DxOMark scores... but then they editing software might not be nearly as good. Someone my have more cores and higher cycles on the CPU... but memory management, or Android in general can't allow it to shine in real world use.

Agreed.

Apple mobile devices might not be at the top of the specs list, but when you consider how well they work -- plus the best ecosystem, period -- they're tough to beat.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

The analyst never made that claim - it was specifically "some retailers".

Matches what the a new corporate rep told me about eight months later....

Have to remember that with Verizon (and I think AT&T) the Z10 was a daily rebooting nightmare for almost a month... even if it had the apps, most consumers would not have kept it. Only reason I did was "I believed", and was able to load a leak that fixed the rebooting issues. But it was almost three weeks till Verizon pushed out that update.

[xtremeled]

Because there is a sucker born every minute willing to overpay and many people have selective tolerances for corporate greed and transgressions.

They do make a great product with a great processor and an excellent camera.

In terms of world market share, however, Android is kicking everybody's butt.

Posted via CB10

Android isnt a phone. Apples to Apples. Leave the oranges out

[Tre Lawrence]

BB never had the kind of money they'd have needed for the type of sustained marketing campaign that they'd have needed to overcome their negative brand image - not even close.

But let's say that they did: what amazing, must-have features would average consumers have found compelling enough to leave their respective ecosystems had BB10 been marketed as you suggest?

Ah... the painful truth.

...waiting on someone to say "Security!"

[xtremeled]

What makes iphone successful?

Well probably it's functions are so easy and poor that even a silly dumbats is able to make a call or use FB like opening a bigmac wrapper or a can of Duff!

Posted either via -Passport SQW100-1 or -Classic SQC100-1 / 10.3.++

If productivity = ease of use, how can ease of use be a bad thing. If an iPhone is easy to use then how can one claim its not a productivity device? You seem to suggest that a BB is harder to use which would cut down on productivity. If that's true, how can it be considered a productivity device?

[z10Jobe]

Android isnt a phone. Apples to Apples. Leave the oranges out

Thanks for the revelation.

The Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Posted via CB10

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Thanks for the revelation.

The Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Posted via CB10

It's best to pick the Apples befroe they fall.

[xtremeled]

Thanks for the revelation.

The Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Posted via CB10

You're quite welcome DH!

[xtremeled]

Are you saying Apple created a processor that does more than just processes?

So, going back to your 45 year old example, Are you saying that todays processors, based on their capabilities are not considered innovative when compared to the example you put out there. Dual core, quad core, octo core, hyper threading, advanced design and so on? Would you also think thqat the addition of a turbocharger on an internal combustion engine is not innovative? The engine design itself hasn't really changed. Perhaps you're just unable to admit you're wrong. Dont feel bad, you're not alone. A lot of people have the defect

[stlabrat]

Simple to use. Some people think Android is too busy.

too messy?

[xtremeled]

So innovations aren't new things, just improvements to other stuff. Creating something new, that hadn't existed yet would be invention.

in�no�vate
ˈinəˌvāt/Submit
verb
make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.
"the company's failure to diversify and innovate competitively"
introduce (something new, especially a product).
"innovating new products, developing existing ones"

Now do you finally get it?
I've never understood the person who argues from a position of stubbornness

[xtremeled]

Besides all of the marketing and processors, a major reason why Apple products work is because they work together. You can pick up all conversations on any device signed into your account. You can go from your phone to your iPad to your mac and not lose the conversation. It's crazy how efficient it makes things. You can answer calls on your ipad/mac while your phone charges.

Everything works together.

STOP!!!!!! That would make it a productivity device.

[anon(3983727)]

BB never had the kind of money they'd have needed for the type of sustained marketing campaign that they'd have needed to overcome their negative brand image - not even close.

But let's say that they did: what amazing, must-have features would average consumers have found compelling enough to leave their respective ecosystems had BB10 been marketed as you suggest?

BB Hub, Closed ecosystem (refinement android absolutely did not have in 2013), Ability to run Android apps (Amazon or side-loading for tinkerers), Gesture based UI, Peek and flow, Of course the most secure OS available at the time would be hyped, Blackberry Video and music was pretty nice although nowhere near iTunes.
Just think about what Apple advertised for the iPhone. By 2013 they were no longer using the "YOU NEED THIS" strategy but instead using emotional draw to hype its products. they used various unnamed apps to show compelling images of things people may be emotionally tied to. It was not a display of unique abilities of the device but instead series of beautiful things and sounds displayed on the device.
Blackberry's few ads hardly showed the device and almost never showcased what it can actually do. the vast majority of the public had no idea the device existed, the few that saw the ads had no idea how it was different from the Blackberry their parents carried as a corporate device.

[early2bed]

Thats exactly what marketing is for. You must create a demand for a product, not wait for people to discover it.

You don't buy a $50-$100 million ad campaign to try to create demand for your product. You put together some focus groups, lay out your products and competitors product in a retail setting and see how willing they are to buy your product pre and post-marketing. Sometimes you find that your marketing won't increase sales by enough to cover the cost of your ads so you would be better off saving the ad money and making fewer phones.

It may actually be your best chance of making a profit. It certainly is less risky because if you are going to buy the ads then you certainly have to order the phones - there's no point in creating a demand if you don't have enough inventory. It's a huge crap-shoot if you aren't sure that there is enough demand.

If awareness is that big of an factor then you should be able to get most of your family and friends to buy BlackBerries because surely you have made them aware of how great they are. How's that going?

[DJ BigToe]

I've never understood the person who argues from a position of stubbornness

Totally agree.