12-06-21 08:44 AM
74 123
tools
  1. the_boon's Avatar
    It's not. If it was, then we'd all also be driving only Latas or Hyundais, and we aren't. I am agreeing with you. We are spending massive amounts of money driving all different types of cars because our different choices and spendings for autos make us feel better. Our choices of different options and spendings for phones isn't really vastly different, other than scale.
    Yeah the way I look at it, it's a couple hundred bucks or sometimes over a thousand on something that'll live in one's pocket for usually about two years, sometimes more. Why would they want something that'll bore them after two weeks or so.
    11-21-21 07:58 PM
  2. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    You're only one of a handful of people who seem to believe that rows of buttons on the bottom of a phone is the difference between "boring" and "exciting." Most people don't see their device as either boring or exciting - it's all about the software running on the device that makes THAT difference for most, except maybe for the quality of the camera. And phones with buttons have never had especially good cameras.
    pdr733 and John Albert like this.
    11-22-21 02:00 AM
  3. the_boon's Avatar
    You're only one of a handful of people who seem to believe that rows of buttons on the bottom of a phone is the difference between "boring" and "exciting." Most people don't see their device as either boring or exciting - it's all about the software running on the device that makes THAT difference for most, except maybe for the quality of the camera. And phones with buttons have never had especially good cameras.
    Exciting in a market where everything looks about the same and gives about the same experience. If there were more diversity in form factors (RIP LG) and more people using using them, then yes a phone with a keyboard and/or moving parts wouldn't necessarily stand out as much

    After over three years, I wouldn't say the KEY2 is exactly exciting anymore (though it has a timeless design but that's subjective) but the keyboard experience (typing, shortcuts, etc) is just as useful and relevant today as it was in 2018, imo.
    dmlis likes this.
    11-22-21 07:38 AM
  4. pdr733's Avatar
    Someone wrote this on Reddit wrt the_boon's seeming obsession with boring vs exciting in terms of phones. Very well put:

    "Because a screwdriver is exciting for a toolman when new, once you've been using one for years, a new one will only exite you for a while.

    It's a tool fighting lots of constraints, mainly power/battery life and size. If it was wall powered, phones could have desktop rtx 3070 level performance, audiophile grade speakers, projectors,whatever.

    By definition a tool is functional.

    People and artists and marketing departments would like to call it more than a tool, but as long as it has to be a tool at the bare minimum, it won't cross the boundary to art without compromising its main aim, functionality. The art can be accessed through the tool.

    You look at your door,your bed, your gas stove, your fridge, blank paper with excitement? It's the art pieces inside the room with doors, the food, the books, and the music that excites, not the medium."
    11-24-21 08:17 PM
  5. spARTacus's Avatar
    Someone wrote this on Reddit wrt the_boon's seeming obsession with boring vs exciting in terms of phones. Very well put...
    The screwdriver part at the start seem well put in my opinion. The last part, when the poster talked about bed, paper, stove, etc... seemed to be well put in my opinion. The rest of it didn't really seem overlying revealing or well put to me, beyond what others have also said. I guess one probably had to see some of the other conversation from Reddit to get the full jest of what the poster was going on about, since I am not sure what the reference to art and such was.
    11-24-21 08:55 PM
  6. the_boon's Avatar
    Someone wrote this on Reddit wrt the_boon's seeming obsession with boring vs exciting in terms of phones. Very well put:

    "Because a screwdriver is exciting for a toolman when new, once you've been using one for years, a new one will only exite you for a while.

    It's a tool fighting lots of constraints, mainly power/battery life and size. If it was wall powered, phones could have desktop rtx 3070 level performance, audiophile grade speakers, projectors,whatever.

    By definition a tool is functional.

    People and artists and marketing departments would like to call it more than a tool, but as long as it has to be a tool at the bare minimum, it won't cross the boundary to art without compromising its main aim, functionality. The art can be accessed through the tool.

    You look at your door,your bed, your gas stove, your fridge, blank paper with excitement? It's the art pieces inside the room with doors, the food, the books, and the music that excites, not the medium."
    The examples given by that poster were single-use tools/object. A mobile device is very multi-functional.
    Yes the content constitutes most of the experience, but the hardware around it can contribute too. Why should the latter be the same flat slate?
    shakingthrough and bh7171 like this.
    11-24-21 08:56 PM
  7. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    The examples given by that poster were single-use tools/object. A mobile device is very multi-functional.
    Yes the content constitutes most of the experience, but the hardware around it can contribute too. Why should the latter be the same flat slate?
    Because 99.9% of users either don’t care beyond the content experience or don’t prefer for the PKB experience for whatever reason.
    John Albert likes this.
    11-25-21 11:18 AM
  8. idssteve's Avatar
    Exhausting. Is perpetual update drama what we have to look forward to the rest of our days?
    bh7171 likes this.
    12-04-21 03:38 AM
  9. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Exhausting. Is perpetual update drama what we have to look forward to the rest of our days?
    That's pretty much all modern technology nowadays it seems.
    12-04-21 03:40 AM
  10. pdr733's Avatar
    That's pretty much all modern technology nowadays it seems.
    And most people don't consider it a drama at all. True, most people don't use 8-10 year old phones and expect them to work with changing network technology, kept continuously updated, etc.
    IMO/FWIW/LOL.
    12-04-21 03:45 PM
  11. spARTacus's Avatar
    Most people have also bought into (literally) the idea of aiming to just discard or throw stuff out all the time and also always be buying new to replace, instead of the concepts of buying used, buying for long life use, self repairs, re-use, re-cycle, etc... (whether they are consciously aware they have bought into such or not).
    bh7171 likes this.
    12-04-21 03:59 PM
  12. pdr733's Avatar
    Please dont be disingenuous again. The large majority of BB10/BBOS/PKB crowd is clinging to their long obsolete devices because they are unwilling (and seemingly in some cases even unable) to upgrade to a newer one which would have one or more of the following attributes:
    - not having their favorite fruit logo
    - having the hated (by some of them) Android or IOS
    - not having PKB
    For the large majority of people concerned, their decision boils down to what I written above, claims to sustainability, avoidance of overconsumption, etc. is, in most of the cases, rationalization of their previous decision with a now-fashionable or worthwhile cause or explanation.
    Yes, there are people among the BB zealots who legitimately dont want to engage in overconsumption, dont want to throw away things prematurely, etc. but there are a lot who, with BB10 or other BB devices still released yearly, would buy them even though their previous device is still usable.
    Maybe you (meaning spartacus) are not, but dont deny that the majority of BB clingers are not paragons of sustainability.
    On the other hand, its one thing when someone upgrades yearly (which is in my book, a wasteful and unneccessary activity), and someone who is clinging to 8-10 year old devices.
    JeepBB and Troy Tiscareno like this.
    12-04-21 04:43 PM
  13. spARTacus's Avatar
    Please dont be disingenuous...
    I didn't think I was being.
    12-04-21 04:52 PM
  14. pdr733's Avatar
    I didn't think I was being.
    OK, then I would say: dont suppose that everyone is clinging to their BB devices because of the same reasons as you do.
    12-04-21 04:54 PM
  15. spARTacus's Avatar
    ...but there are a lot who, with BB10 or other BB devices still released yearly, would buy them even though their previous device is still usable...but dont deny that the majority of BB clingers are not paragons of sustainability...
    Most probably just really like what they have/had, and don't really want to change to something they think won't work as well for them.
    Last edited by spARTacus; 12-04-21 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Won't and will auto correct error
    12-04-21 04:55 PM
  16. spARTacus's Avatar
    OK, then I would say: dont suppose that everyone is clinging to their BB devices because of the same reasons as you do.
    I right now use Samsung Android for my devices.
    12-04-21 04:57 PM
  17. the_boon's Avatar
    Please dont be disingenuous again. The large majority of BB10/BBOS/PKB crowd is clinging to their long obsolete devices because they are unwilling (and seemingly in some cases even unable) to upgrade to a newer one which would have one or more of the following attributes:
    - not having their favorite fruit logo
    - having the hated (by some of them) Android or IOS
    - not having PKB
    For the large majority of people concerned, their decision boils down to what I written above, claims to sustainability, avoidance of overconsumption, etc. is, in most of the cases, rationalization of their previous decision with a now-fashionable or worthwhile cause or explanation.
    Yes, there are people among the BB zealots who legitimately dont want to engage in overconsumption, dont want to throw away things prematurely, etc. but there are a lot who, with BB10 or other BB devices still released yearly, would buy them even though their previous device is still usable.
    Maybe you (meaning spartacus) are not, but dont deny that the majority of BB clingers are not paragons of sustainability.
    On the other hand, its one thing when someone upgrades yearly (which is in my book, a wasteful and unneccessary activity), and someone who is clinging to 8-10 year old devices.
    Those reasons make sense, but when the latest BB10 phone rolled off the line in 2015, if they upgrade now, it's not like they should feel bad about the sustainability of the environment. They probably upgraded their computers or tablets or TV's at some point during those years anyway.

    The main draws would be the lack of Google/Apple and the PKB.

    On the former, one can load one of the alternative OS's on many unlocked bootloader devices.
    On the latter, well...not too many solutions at the moment, unfortunately.
    12-04-21 10:12 PM
  18. idssteve's Avatar
    MY life doesn't revolve around "phones". Communications are integral to human life, tho. Including mine. I simply prefer to learn a few languages well. Rather than all of them poorly.

    Even more important than communications are the concepts to be communicated. Devoting more effort into chasing a perpetually changing language than focus on the concepts to be communicated can prove a frustrating distraction. Imo.

    I'm typing this on a ten year old device simply because it demands least effort, and least distraction, of all other newer devices in my reach. Muscle memory converts thoughts to typed words with minimal distraction. Minimal effort. Nearly zero eye involvement. Right hand sipping coffee while waiting client reply to trouble shooting instructions. A truly relaxing experience. ANY other of my "modern giants" proves LESS relaxing. For ME.

    Is it really so difficult to grasp that we are not ALL identical? Why do "outliers" pose such visceral threat to such vast majority? ??

    Learning a new handset is much like learning a new language. THIS ten year old handset challenges my tongue itself for thought to word generation. Swapping it for a non-tactile modern monster slab feels too much like transplanting a "new" tongue into my mouth from some alien creature.

    Yes, I CAN learn the "new" tongue. I WILL learn the "new" tongue. I won't LIE about which tongue I prefer. AND why I prefer it.

    My ten year old Bold aside, K2 is NOT ten years old. It takes ME three years to truly develop comfortable muscle memory with a "new" device. Publishing vulnerability updates every 30 days might coerce producers to update. ? More likely coerce end users to update? Is this cycle indicating ANY evidence of deceleration? ?? Or is it accelerating?

    Where do we predict it'll be ten yrs from now? 100 yrs?

    How dependent is all of this on Google/Apple? Are they really TOO big to fail? Or be hacked?? How many of our communications eggs are in those two baskets? ??

    Life long "what iffer" here. Lol.
    bh7171, the_boon, dmlis and 1 others like this.
    12-05-21 01:45 AM
  19. conite's Avatar
    Publishing vulnerability updates every 30 days might coerce producers to update. ? More likely coerce end users to update? Is this cycle indicating ANY evidence of deceleration? ?? Or is it accelerating?
    As I explained before, publishing the vulnerabilities AFTER they are patched is the quid pro quo for delaying making them public. Security companies who found them want to take credit.
    12-05-21 11:24 AM
  20. idssteve's Avatar
    As I explained before, publishing the vulnerabilities AFTER they are patched is the quid pro quo for delaying making them public. Security companies who found them want to take credit.
    Yes. And users using hardware that didn't get updated, like K2, this past 30 days are now vulnerable. AFAIK? Thanks to "published instructions" ? Coerced obsolescence? Lol.

    Idk what the solution really is. NOT updating is certainly no solution. Current trajectory seems unsustainable. Imo.

    I'm not JUST speaking of environmental sustainability. Altho "new every two", for 7+billion humans, could mean 3.5B handsets per year! That's 111 devices per second! Every second of every day of every year! Hard to visualize sustainable market viability for that model, long term. Imo.

    Folks who claim that BBOS enthusiasts would not complain about "update drama" clearly weren't paying attention 10+ yrs ago. I'd coined the term "update drama" in dos days and railed about the "new every two" wastefulness well before joining CB, late 08.

    "Update drama" had fatigued many of us by 7.1. SOME of us DID complain vociferously about it back in RIM days. AND RIM LISTENED! By EOL BBOS itself! Lol. Certainly ONE way to do it. Lol.

    Like I said, NOT patching vulnerabilities is NO solution. Supporting that update cycle via hardware sales is where I see longterm problems. Ultimately, some very distant day, might industry et al possibly conclude that RIM's SAF model the more sustainable model?
    12-05-21 12:43 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    Yes. And users using hardware that didn't get updated, like K2, this past 30 days are now vulnerable. AFAIK? Thanks to "published instructions" ? Coerced obsolescence? Lol.

    Idk what the solution really is. NOT updating is certainly no solution. Current trajectory seems unsustainable. Imo.

    I'm not JUST speaking of environmental sustainability. Altho "new every two", for 7+billion humans, could mean 3.5B handsets per year! That's 111 devices per second! Every second of every day of every year! Hard to visualize sustainable market viability for that model, long term. Imo.

    Folks who claim that BBOS enthusiasts would not complain about "update drama" clearly weren't paying attention 10+ yrs ago. I'd coined the term "update drama" in dos days and railed about the "new every two" wastefulness well before joining CB, late 08.

    "Update drama" had fatigued many of us by 7.1. SOME of us DID complain vociferously about it back in RIM days. AND RIM LISTENED! By EOL BBOS itself! Lol. Certainly ONE way to do it. Lol.

    Like I said, NOT patching vulnerabilities is NO solution. Supporting that update cycle via hardware sales is where I see longterm problems. Ultimately, some very distant day, might industry et al possibly conclude that RIM's SAF model the more sustainable model?
    The solution is to provide longer support cycles - like 4 years with Samsung, 5 years with Pixel, and 6 years with iPhone.
    12-05-21 12:58 PM
  22. idssteve's Avatar
    The solution is to provide longer support cycles - like 4 years with Samsung, 5 years with Pixel, and 6 years with iPhone.
    That's certainly where we're currently at. Even at 6 year cycles, that potential 7B global userbase still means 37 devices every second of every day of every year. Something somewhere might need to change by then?
    12-05-21 01:12 PM
  23. conite's Avatar
    That's certainly where we're currently at. Even at 6 year cycles, that potential 7B global userbase still means 37 devices every second of every day of every year. Something somewhere might need to change by then?
    6 years is an eternity given the reality of mobile's lightning-fast innovation cycle.
    12-05-21 01:18 PM
  24. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Yes. And users using hardware that didn't get updated, like K2, this past 30 days are now vulnerable. AFAIK? Thanks to "published instructions" ? Coerced obsolescence? Lol.

    Idk what the solution really is. NOT updating is certainly no solution. Current trajectory seems unsustainable. Imo.

    I'm not JUST speaking of environmental sustainability. Altho "new every two", for 7+billion humans, could mean 3.5B handsets per year! That's 111 devices per second! Every second of every day of every year! Hard to visualize sustainable market viability for that model, long term. Imo.

    Folks who claim that BBOS enthusiasts would not complain about "update drama" clearly weren't paying attention 10+ yrs ago. I'd coined the term "update drama" in dos days and railed about the "new every two" wastefulness well before joining CB, late 08.

    "Update drama" had fatigued many of us by 7.1. SOME of us DID complain vociferously about it back in RIM days. AND RIM LISTENED! By EOL BBOS itself! Lol. Certainly ONE way to do it. Lol.

    Like I said, NOT patching vulnerabilities is NO solution. Supporting that update cycle via hardware sales is where I see longterm problems. Ultimately, some very distant day, might industry et al possibly conclude that RIM's SAF model the more sustainable model?
    We’ve all complained about updates becoming more frequent at some point. However, the security vulnerabilities have exponentially increased and become a fact of life. Personally, I expect that it’s been all part of the disposable aspect of products that’s become prevalent in everything over the last 40-50+ years. The planned obsolescence model has encouraged/increased products and features development across society. At the same time, we consume resources at increasing rates. Everything’s finite, right?
    12-05-21 01:27 PM
  25. idssteve's Avatar
    6 years is an eternity given the reality of mobile's lightning-fast innovation cycle.
    How long might we expect that lightning-fast innovation cycle to persist? How much more is being demanded?
    12-05-21 01:55 PM
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