[MasterOfBinary]

Yes I would prefer that but by now it's clear that's just impossible with BB10, it simply can't do it, not capable and it doesn't work with BIS either.

What kind of things can't be done with BB10? Besides the trackpad?

[Astro_Man]

•Make BBM a cross service messaging client and service. Support AIM (NYSE:AOL), Yahoo (NASDAQ:YHOO), Google Talk (NASDAQ:GOOG), MSN (NASDAQ:MSFT), Skype, LinkedIn (NYSE:LNKD) and Facebook (NASDAQ:FB) users in a single interface.

Do this! Make BBM available on other platforms for phone to phone communications, and also make it so other messengers like Google Talk, Yahoo, Aim, Skype, etc. stay connected as well as BBM does, without the need to sign in all the time due to being inadvertently logged out. (This is still relevant for phone to pc communications.)

[lnichols]

" BIS is secured from the handset to the BIS, it is not secured any better than BB10 from the BIS to the mail server. So how is it more secure? "

You're contradicting yourself. From handset to the NOC BIS is secure basically cutting the risk by half.

BIS - NOC secure, NOC to Server standard security

BB10 - Server standard security

That makes BIS 50% more secure.

Uh no. That is the most simpleton logic ever. Depending on where the NOC is it could make the number of hops between the BIS and the mail server much more than the number of hops between the phone and the mail server. For example I live near one of the biggest Internet POPS in the world and many services, including Amazon, and email services have major data centers around here. When I did tests from BBOS I would show as originating from NY. So 20 miles of hops or 300 miles plus the delay in going from NY and back? Plus you have known point that will be processing a ton of email request out of so you could set up shop outside of there with packet capturing gear and get more bang for the buck!

Posted via CB10

[Jaybles]

Orange is terrible for roaming rates this I know. But you can get 30mb for 6 pounds if you buy their roaming bundle.

Or you can get a local SIM for very low data rates so you can BBM to your hearts content, OR just turn your data off and use wifi which is plentiful in the states. Or just keep your old BBOS device for when in the states to use BIS data.

I understand your point but there are ways around it and its not an every day issue at all.

[anon62607]

The key is not the problem, it's the same with BBM, the hard part is tapping into the BIS tunnel, entire countries were crying they couldn't do it, including UK at the infamous riots.

What exactly is the BIS tunnel? I had thought it was all just straight Application layer over IP, and. It otherwise protected?

And no matter what kind of tunnel it is, key exchange is still important. Of course there are systems with known and described key exchanges (IPSec and SSL and so on).

My first pass googling of the whole thing indicates that the BIS tunnel is more or less a proxy service running on blackberry's servers, for the purpose of providing a data compression service from the wider internet to the blackberry device - something like running a socks5 proxy on your home machine with libgzip and then setting your mobile device to use that proxy - lots of guys overseas do something like this for "secure browsing" while abroad - SSH tunnel (with serpent or blowfish as a cypher for the paranoid) back to their home machine, run that tunnel with encryption and compression, then use a browser that supports a socks proxy to connect to the SSH socks proxy. Firefox had for a long time been favored specifically to avoid DNS leaking - DNS requests could also be routed over the secure proxy.

I'm not sure how BIS does it - It could easily be a proxy for which there is either no encryption, or for which the encryption is the 3DES ECB static key.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[belfastdispatcher]

Orange is terrible for roaming rates this I know. But you can get 30mb for 6 pounds if you buy their roaming bundle.

Or you can get a local SIM for very low data rates so you can BBM to your hearts content, OR just turn your data off and use wifi which is plentiful in the states. Or just keep your old BBOS device for when in the states to use BIS data.

I understand your point but there are ways around it and its not an every day issue at all.

Yeah, �6 per day for 30mb, multiply that by 2 weeks. And if you go over 30mb it reverts back to �8/1mb. As I said, their phones are unlocked and they're not technical enough to mess about with pre pay sims, they'll probably walk out with a 2 year contract lol.

We were counting on wifi but as it turns out there's none at the house they rented and any other time they're always on the move.


In these cases BIS and Legacy simply rules.

[Jaybles]

Yeah, �6 per day for 30mb, multiply that by 2 weeks. And if you go over 30mb it reverts back to �8/1mb. As I said, their phones are unlocked and they're not technical enough to mess about with pre pay sims, they'll probably walk out with a 2 year contract lol.

We were counting on wifi but as it turns out there's none at the house they rented and any other time they're always on the move.


In these cases BIS and Legacy simply rules.

I regret moving from Vodafone to Orange, their roaming rates are such a rip off.

In this particular situation having BIS on BBOS wins. But to put in to perspective, it is a 2 week holiday, it is not an everyday thing.
Did you mean their phones are locked? If they are unlocked it should be pretty easy to write down instructions of....go to phone shop, ask about pre-paid sim card, buy pre paid sim card, insert sim card. In fact you can get these from pretty much all airports now.

Its a shame the house doesnt have Wifi but that is very much not the norm theses days, and every starbucks, mcdonalds or any big chain like that has free wifi (and there are thousands of these)
For you it seems the simple solution is to just use the BBOS phone out there but this is a very specific need in a niche market. (I am lucky if i get a postcard from my family when on holiday, let alone daily texts lol)

[belfastdispatcher]

I regret moving from Vodafone to Orange, their roaming rates are such a rip off.

In this particular situation having BIS on BBOS wins. But to put in to perspective, it is a 2 week holiday, it is not an everyday thing.
Did you mean their phones are locked? If they are unlocked it should be pretty easy to write down instructions of....go to phone shop, ask about pre-paid sim card, buy pre paid sim card, insert sim card. In fact you can get these from pretty much all airports now.

Its a shame the house doesnt have Wifi but that is very much not the norm theses days, and every starbucks, mcdonalds or any big chain like that has free wifi (and there are thousands of these)
For you it seems the simple solution is to just use the BBOS phone out there but this is a very specific need in a niche market. (I am lucky if i get a postcard from my family when on holiday, let alone daily texts lol)

Sorry, I meant their phones are locked lol.

To tell you how non technical they are, my mother in law fell twice for the scam where she got calls from "orange" to upgrade and instead she ended up with a new contract and new number lol, twice in a row.

Yeah, I'm lucky my boy is old enough to bbm with me too from my wife's phone, I get at least 100 messages a day and photos.

[unbreakablej]

They can't though, they can't get BIS to work and BB10 seems to have major limitations, like a sleep mode for example, if you turn it off it's off, it will not wake up to ring the alarm for example.

Weird cos it works for me. In fact when you get an alarm in sleep mode you can click anywhere on the screen to snooze. It turns white.

Posted via CB10

[belfastdispatcher]

Weird cos it works for me. In fact when you get an alarm in sleep mode you can click anywhere on the screen to snooze. It turns white.

Posted via CB10

I think you're confusing a sleep mode, where your phone is off but still wakes up to ring the alarm, with bedside mode. If you turn off your BB10 phone it's completely off. OS7 devices could do both.

[xanadome]

I think OPs premise is that the old OS still has potential and could be developed further to a viable competitor. That's the entire problem with this thread is that the old OS reached it's peaked. It happens to all software.

Actually, with due respect, I believe this perception is indeed a problem. It's a little simplistic.
It was not really a software problem. If you breakdown what is called "software", the UI and the core function part of the BBOS was superior, the culmination of years of built-up by RIM, taking into considerations the feedback from users. Granted, it was also a culmination of deletion/addition/patching up to make it a bloated software that the hardware no longer could take it. BBOS's problem has actually been a hardware problem. RIM fail to provide or upgrade the hardware for the excellent user interface, that was exactly the asset of BBRY, what was making a BB a BB. Traditionally, RIM has always been cheap in using one or more notches below the standard, perhaps because all it had to handle was mostly the text based information. Low clock speed CPU and inadequate RAM etc, compounded by BIS bottleneck, was causing various problems. This problem was most prominent in truncated emails (BIS related), inability to open large files,,frequent freeze, battery pull, useless browser rendering and the whole bit. Just bringing the hardware up to the current standard alone would have solved most, if not all of the problems.
People are lamenting the loss of core functionality, but I believe most agree with bringing the platform (platform structure) to a modern one. The new BB10 dropped most of the core functionality the BBOS had, and unfortunately, it was this very core functionality and the UI (never mind BBOS etc) that was forming the attraction to the Blackberry. With the loss of this "asset", BBRY are naturally losing the market that BB10 cannot salvage.

[web99]

Actually, with due respect, I believe this perception is indeed a problem. It's a little simplistic.
It was not really a software problem. If you breakdown what is called "software", the UI and the core function part of the BBOS was superior, the culmination of years of built-up by RIM, taking into considerations the feedback from users. Granted, it was also a culmination of deletion/addition/patching up to make it a bloated software that the hardware no longer could take it. BBOS's problem has actually been a hardware problem. RIM fail to provide or upgrade the hardware for the excellent user interface, that was exactly the asset of BBRY, what was making a BB a BB. Traditionally, RIM has always been cheap in using one or more notches below the standard, perhaps because all it had to handle was mostly the text based information. Low clock speed CPU and inadequate RAM etc, compounded by BIS bottleneck, was causing various problems. This problem was most prominent in truncated emails (BIS related), inability to open large files,,frequent freeze, battery pull, useless browser rendering and the whole bit. Just bringing the hardware up to the current standard alone would have solved most, if not all of the problems.
People are lamenting the loss of core functionality, but I believe most agree with bringing the platform (platform structure) to a modern one. The new BB10 dropped most of the core functionality the BBOS had, and unfortunately, it was this very core functionality and the UI (never mind BBOS etc) that was forming the attraction to the Blackberry. With the loss of this "asset", BBRY are naturally losing the market that BB10 cannot salvage.

Unfortunately the core BBOS functionality was not good enough for the 95% of its former users who abandoned the platform in favour of Android and ios. They wanted the features, apps and functionality that their friends had on other platforms that the old BBOS could not deliver on.

If BBOS really mattered as you are alluding in your previous post, BlackBerry would never have lost the significant marketshare that it did in the last 2 years or so.

BBRY did not switch from BBOS because it wanted to go through the pain and trials of creating a new platform from scratch.

They were pretty much forced to in order to give them a chance to compete with the other major platforms out there and to have the features and functionalities that the majority of smartphone phone users now take for granted.

Another thing too is my belief that BB10 was built with the main focus of attracting new users on other major platforms, hence its concentration on making it's operating system with a focus on media, gaming and easier for developers to create and port apps to BB10.

In my opinion they decided to first go after the 95% of the market that abandoned them with the intention of gradually adding the BBOS features popular with core BBOS users in future software updates.

Posted via CB10 from my spectacular Z10

[npisano]

Here's my experience visiting the U.S. Firstly, I'll qualify this by saying I'm coming from Canada and not the UK, if that matters. Anyway, with a small amount of research on the internet beforehand, I went to a T-Mobile kiosk at the closest mall after entering the U.S. and picked up a prepaid sim card, with a $10 initial balance. I put it into my Z10 and that was it! Now, for $3/day I get unlimited calls, texts, and data! To me, that's an amazing deal and well worth the time of going to the T-Mobile website beforehand. I've loved my BB legacy devices, but they simply don't compare to my Z10. Just my opinion though, and I respect everyone else's choices as their own.

[xanadome]

Unfortunately the core BBOS functionality was not good enough for the 95% of its former users who abandoned the platform in favour of Android and ios. They wanted the features, apps and functionality that their friends had on other platforms that the old BBOS could not deliver on.

If BBOS really mattered as you are alluding in your previous post, BlackBerry would never have lost the significant marketshare that it did in the last 2 years or so.

BBRY did not switch from BBOS because it wanted to go through the pain and trials of creating a new platform from scratch.

They were pretty much forced to in order to give them a chance to compete with the other major platforms out there and to have the features and functionalities that the majority of smartphone phone users now take for granted.

Another thing too is my belief that BB10 was built with the main focus of attracting new users on other major platforms, hence its concentration on making it's operating system with a focus on media, gaming and easier for developers to create and port apps to BB10.

In my opinion they decided to first go after the 95% of the market that abandoned them with the intention of gradually adding the BBOS features popular with core BBOS users in future software updates.

Posted via CB10 from my spectacular Z10

I fully agree with you, however, I believe what you have described applies to the Z10.
In my various past posts, I already said that BBRY had to create the Z10 type devices anyway, although they are now competing in the same turf with titans. So, that's another story for another day. I really wish BBRY succeed in their endeavour.

However, I thought the Q10 was totally another story. I was talking about the business/enterprise clients who have been holding out with BBOS for now. Q10 is higher priced than Z10, and if enterprises look into new BB10 devices, they usually evaluate the Q10. This segment of the market is huge.

There is another large traditional demographic for BB, that is a segment of teenagers, who traditionally bought BBs mostly as typing devices for texting. They, as well as some emerging market (another large market segment) will be served by Curves, Q5 or the rumoured 9720 etc.

All I was saying was that the biz segment was trying to look at the Q10 as a successor to the Bold line of legacy device, but so far, they are hesitating. Q10 addressed some old problems such as hour glasses, battery pull, and laggy browser (unusable) etc, by going a modern platform, but alas, Q10 was not the BB in the mind of many, since the core functionality was dropped, and biz clients, if they have to upgrade, they are going to iPhone in droves. Bold (990/9930) was a true keyboard BB with the touchscreen added but many believe that the Q10 is still a touchscreen device with a typing instrument slapped on, which is making many usual biz related tasks (large volume of email, PIM etc) rather difficult. And of course there is a huge group of people who congregate here that have been using the Bold 9900 etc, and many of them are more comfortable with their Bold line, and watching how Q10 might evolve.

[Nine54]

Actually, with due respect, I believe this perception is indeed a problem. It's a little simplistic.
It was not really a software problem. If you breakdown what is called "software", the UI and the core function part of the BBOS was superior, the culmination of years of built-up by RIM, taking into considerations the feedback from users. Granted, it was also a culmination of deletion/addition/patching up to make it a bloated software that the hardware no longer could take it. BBOS's problem has actually been a hardware problem. RIM fail to provide or upgrade the hardware for the excellent user interface, that was exactly the asset of BBRY, what was making a BB a BB. Traditionally, RIM has always been cheap in using one or more notches below the standard, perhaps because all it had to handle was mostly the text based information. Low clock speed CPU and inadequate RAM etc, compounded by BIS bottleneck, was causing various problems.

For starters, the average development cycle for a phone is probably around 18 months. This presents a couple challenges: average hardware available today will be obsoleted in less than 18 months while the higher-spec'ed hardware is too expensive because it's not yet produced in high enough volume to drive economies of scale. It's a supply chain issue, particularly if you're using off-the-shelf components and don't order in high enough quantities to pressure suppliers.

This affects multiple handset makers, not just BB. But one BB-specific thing, I think, was a tendency to prioritize battery life above all else when it came to hardware. Personally, I don't implicitly disagree with that position, especially if your brand and mission is about constant connected-ness for the on-the-go professional. This would explain BB's conservative approach to hardware selection. However, consumers have overwhelmingly--if not begrudgingly--shown a willingness to compromise on battery life--largely because they have no choice if they want large displays and robust media capabilities.

I suspect another factor impacting hardware selection was misinterpreted customer sentiments. For example, because the camera isn't the highest priority for a typical BB user, the company took that to mean it could "skimp out" on camera and save on that component. A quick perusal of 9900 forums reveals how utterly wrong that assumption was.

This problem was most prominent in truncated emails (BIS related), inability to open large files,,frequent freeze, battery pull, useless browser rendering and the whole bit. Just bringing the hardware up to the current standard alone would have solved most, if not all of the problems.

I'm curious, how would better hardware have solved truncated emails, opening large files, and inadequate browser rendering? Through faster buses, more RAM, memcached?

People are lamenting the loss of core functionality, but I believe most agree with bringing the platform (platform structure) to a modern one.

So, in your mind, was BB 10 the correct approach to a modern platform? Or, what do you think they could have or should have done? Should they have worked on modernizing BBOS? Was that even possible? Or, did they need to go with an architecture like BB 10, but keep the "userland" stuff from BBOS?

[thurask]

Hmm, Windows 7/8 has some minor flaws, so let's bring back Windows 9x.

[Nine54]

Hmm, Windows 7/8 has some minor flaws, so let's bring back Windows 9x.

You skipped XP. The difference is that the evolution of Windows from 95 to 7 was just that, an evolution. Sure, some things might have been changed or removed, but I can't think of any significant deprecations.

A more apropo comparison would be between Win8 and Win7 in which users ARE rejecting the new Start screen and ARE clamoring for the return of the old Start menu.

But that's beside the point. The thread isn't a longing for a return to BBOS because BB 10 has some flaws. Rather, it's about whether BlackBerry threw the baby out with the bath water, much like critics are arguing that Microsoft did with Win8 in its attempt to modernize Windows for full touch.

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