1. BlendIcier's Avatar
    TI Announces WiLink 8, successor wireless chip to Playbook 1.0's

    Press Release

    Key changes
    • Adds Glossnass support (Russian GPS)
    • Adds NFC
    • Integrates Blueooth Low Energy, ANT+, and NFC for location services
    • Enables FM Rx/Tx in parallel to other active wireless connections
    • Adds 5GHz band -- necessary before adding 802.11ac support
    • Offers choice of using 2 orthogonal antennae with a 20 MHz channel each or one using 40 MHz -- better wifi


    TI Blog post on Wilink 8.0

    The actual product page is not posted yet.

    TI's WiLink 7.0 page

    I'm not sure why Bluetooth 4.0 isn't advertised or completely implemented (all the major subcomponents are).

    Wifi '5' / 802.11ac isn't here yet, but there is a good chance it will be in one year's time.

    It's still built on 45nm, and migrating to a smaller process will yield some power savings all else being equal which should happen in a year's time.

    Wireless is definitely the future, from connecting devices to charging power (there is another chip in the TI suite for that) there will be no going backwards once on company has taken the step. This chip is a key component of the core hardware which ends up defining and differentiating the product built around them.

    I've anticipated the new BB10 phones using TI's family of chips, and I think it still makes the most sense. But there's a lot of options and it comes down to a choice of features, power, and timing.
    Last edited by BlendIcier; 02-13-12 at 11:51 AM.
    mithrazor and fanatical like this.
    02-13-12 11:43 AM
  2. Blackberry_boffin's Avatar
    My head is hurting now.
    02-13-12 12:01 PM
  3. BlendIcier's Avatar
    Qualcomm delays upcoming quad core SoC's by a quarter

    The chips in question are the ones with LTE, to be manufactured on a 28nm process.
    (reference)

    The previous timeline was for devices with S4 chips to be on sale by the end of February, in time for MWC. Every chipmaker is trying something a little different, and Qualcomm's strategy could be best summarized as trying to be the first one available with with a power efficient integrated LTE.

    Based on RIM's comments waiting for an appropriate chip that would be through production in volume for sale of a BB10 device towards year end, I think they are on track for TI's Omap 5. The Omap 5 will be on the 28nm process, and iirc. TI was going to co-develop at their own fab and at UMC, so the problems don't directly apply to them. Thus a delay for devices based on this competing chip is a spot of luck.

    Nvidia's Tegra 3 will be power in hungry when in use, and probably mostly see implementations into tablets with bigger batteries, which is fine because the Windows 8 launch will suck up a bunch (the modem isn't integrated yet, it's on 45nm to compensate for the new design complexity, and the extra half core will only save power in standby.) I don't know about Samsung's plan. I do know Apple with an A6 on sale sometime in Q2 will beat TI to market, it's a question of whether it's by 3 or 6 months

    I also wanted to mention that Omap 5 does have USB 3.0, which will be so nice for syncing media faster. The most time my iPhone wastes is all in the daily "Finishing Sync..."
    Last edited by BlendIcier; 02-15-12 at 12:59 PM.
    02-15-12 12:56 PM
  4. CrackedBarry's Avatar
    I strongly doubt that it'll be OMAP...

    1: Qualcomm has already been mentioned as a BBOS10 partner.
    2: OMAP won't be out till very late this year. And it won't ship in volume before next year, since Microsoft have chosen the OMAP5 platform for Windows 8.
    3: Google is reportedly also cooking up something with OMAP5, whether tablet or phone, so I doubt that they'll be able to service RIM on top of those commitments. At least not in 2012... We're most likely looking at Qualcomm S4 for BB10...
    02-15-12 01:05 PM
  5. BlendIcier's Avatar
    I personally believe the recently rumored timelines for OMAP5 are off, and that they are closer to being on track with earlier expectations of volume shipments landing sometime in Q3. The S4 and OMAP 5 are both very nice, and would do great in a phone -- so I wouldn't be upset either way.

    I also estimate that BB10 would conceivably be ready for a launch from mid-year onward if hardware was available, and the more concrete rumors about that are for a launch late in the year. At least it's still a boost for RIM if others have to delay their new phones.

    It's not a huge deal, but it would probably make development easier or sourcing negotiations if they stuck with a single SoC platform for all BB10/Playbook devices early on. And RIM was the manufacturer that launched the OMAP 4's popularity fwiw.

    One SoC I haven't mentioned or thought about is Intel's Atom. Or Samsung's Exynos. I don't know if those would be considered options at all though.

    -----
    Qualcomm is known to be a BB10 partner? or it's just assumed to be because it has been in BlackBerry phones to date?
    If it's an official thing, can you post a link for me

    update:
    Found the reference http://n4bb.com/blackberry-10-phones...ipset-qualcomm
    Qualcomm had RIM's logo on a slide at CES when talking about the S4
    Last edited by BlendIcier; 02-15-12 at 01:28 PM.
    02-15-12 01:20 PM
  6. mithrazor's Avatar
    I strongly doubt that it'll be OMAP...

    1: Qualcomm has already been mentioned as a BBOS10 partner.
    2: OMAP won't be out till very late this year. And it won't ship in volume before next year, since Microsoft have chosen the OMAP5 platform for Windows 8.
    3: Google is reportedly also cooking up something with OMAP5, whether tablet or phone, so I doubt that they'll be able to service RIM on top of those commitments. At least not in 2012... We're most likely looking at Qualcomm S4 for BB10...
    1. Qualcomm never said they were as BBOS10 partner. They said they were a RIM partner. And they used Snapdragon chips in the OS7 devices. So that could be it. It was widely assumed that RIM was going to go with Qualcomm for BB10 too. But I'm not too sure anymore.

    2. There was a article recently saying UMC was starting production. And it's believed to be TI chips. Just wait til we find out what chip's going to be in the new Playbook. That will tell us what will be in BB10.

    I hope it's OMAP5. Because that chip is impressive. The S4 would be good too. And since S4 isn't out right now. I can't even tell which one RIM is going to be going with. Before I'd used to guess the S4. But now, I'm just not too sure at all.
    BlendIcier likes this.
    02-15-12 01:27 PM
  7. undone's Avatar
    Wonder who is using the Qualcomm (delayed) chips in there up and coming devices...be interesting to see who's road maps get pushed back.
    02-15-12 01:32 PM
  8. CrackedBarry's Avatar
    I don't trust Intel Atom, but Exynos is going to be two or FOUR mouthwatering cores of Cortex A15 power. Twice as fast as the A9 MHz pr MHz! Combined with the next generation Mali graphics...

    Lastly there in ST Ericsson with their NovaThor SOC. A15 cores with either Mali graphics or the next generation PowerVR. It's going to be very impressive!

    And then there's Apple of course, though that isn't an option obviously. I'm very curious what they'll have in their A6 chips, since they're usually a year or so ahead of the competition (it's been a while since they introduced the A5, and it's STILL faster than most other GPUs!) I'm betting on some version of Exynos though...
    02-15-12 01:37 PM
  9. BlendIcier's Avatar
    1. Qualcomm never said they were as BBOS10 partner. They said they were a RIM partner. And they used Snapdragon chips in the OS7 devices
    Thanks for making that comment.

    I was thinking that RIM's BB10 launch date was too late in the year to be connected with the S4, and that it wouldn't make sense to have a Curve with BB7 outdo the flagship.

    Carriers want to transition handsets over to LTE asap to reduce their costs now that they've committed to infrastructure upgrades. Updating the Bold line makes sense (and including LTE earlier didn't make sense since the baseband chips available consumed significant battery, didn't allow data and voice to be used at the same time)

    Speculation: I saw a thread that mentioned an update for the Bold's JM-1 battery. Let it be rumored that a refresh of the Bold, and maybe others, is in the cards for when the S4 launches. Selling points will be longer battery life, a bit faster, and LTE (with concurrent use of data and voice).

    Could have been shown off at MWC, but with Qualcomm's delay it won't be for sale until April-May-June?

    2. There was a article recently saying UMC was starting production. And it's believed to be TI chips. Just wait til we find out what chip's going to be in the new Playbook. That will tell us what will be in BB10.
    UMC to Initiate the Roll-Out of 28nm Chips Ahead of Schedule.
    UMC to Produce 28nm Design for Texas Instruments in Q2 - Report

    That is production of the Omap 5
    Last edited by BlendIcier; 02-15-12 at 01:42 PM.
    02-15-12 01:38 PM
  10. BlendIcier's Avatar
    Wonder who is using the Qualcomm (delayed) chips in there up and coming devices...be interesting to see who's road maps get pushed back.
    HTC, Sony, LG would be the biggest ones. Samsung uses them occasionally. Nokia uses them, but are sticking to old hardware until Windows Phone 8 / Apollo early next year
    02-15-12 02:20 PM
  11. BlendIcier's Avatar
    I'm kind of making this a general purpose hardware thread -- it's my experience that a simple lack of knowledge or understanding often leaves the blog community around mobile phones outraged or shocked when something is or is not launched at a given time. Well at least the ones with angry commenters and probably deceitful writers, all in the name of pageviews.

    NEC and Renesas were merged in 2009, and as a part of team Japan they work with foundries from Matush*ta (stupid forum censor), Panasonic, Toshiba -- so they have access to 28nm with HKMG process (smaller size = lower cost, lower power consumption, HKMG = further lower power consumption). With a flood of next-gen hardware beginning mid-year to satisfy Windows 8, LTE, tablets, next gen Phone OSs, .... there is going to be a supply crunch for some, and probably more than a few delays as firms rush products out to grab some available wafer starts. Team Japan is a bit off in its own world with a high yen, and corporate strategic tie-ups from cross-shareholding, Japanese banks, and government organized industry bodies.

    NEC has a long record for producing SoCs that power cellphones, but they usually stayed in Japanese products for the Japanese market. I can't say I've heard much from them since the 2009 restructuring, and their traditional Japanese-Japanese market has been shrinking as incumbents exit the market and imported handsets gain marketshare.

    So what they released today is very interesting. Keep in mind that this is a fortuitous meeting of a good product coming out with capacity to meet demand at a time when competitors can't.
    MP5232 Press Release via VR-Zone


    Unlike Qualcomm's S4/Krait, or TI's OMAP5 this is a dual-core A9 and not the newer A15 but also unlike them Renesas is saying they are targeting $150-$300 priced devices and not $600 flagships.

    So first I'll list some key features, and then tell you when devices could come out.


    Baseband radio supports all of LTE category 4 (up to 150Mbps down and 50Mbps up), DC-HSPA+ (up to 42Mbps down) and EDGE (up to 470kbps)
    Graphics by PowerVR (good. they're the leader, but using one year old from bleeding edge) -- full 1080p playback, stereoscopic 3d capable
    Dual Core A9s at 1.5GHz
    Up to a 20 MP camera
    Unspecified standard collection of Wifi, Bluetooth, GPS, FM
    NFC
    HDMI

    So sampling started for Qualcomm's S4/Krait ~October 2011, TI's OMAP5 ~Dec 2011, and Renesas' MP5232 in 'Q1 2012' which means already. Sampling is delivering a handful of the earliest chips off the line to manufacturers so they can develop designs around it. It normally takes 3-9 months before enough good chips are coming off the line fast enough that there is enough inventory to launch a product, time to assemble and distribute, and then keep up with ongoing sales demand (it varies more than just the logistics because there are marketing strategies too: Apple prefers a 'movie launch' premiere with a spike of demand and sales with temporary shortages, Samsung prefers a steady march and keeps capacity ahead of demand. in my opinion.)

    So a good starting point is sampling + 6 months before you see the devices incorporating the chip. The important thing is the price is cheap. All the functions on one chip, which is small, produced at strategic partners all backed by the Japan mega-complex which is afraid of being shut out of a rapidly changing market in the last few years. It's completely feasible, the incorporated components are not brand new designs that would have troubles with production costs (NEC was always -the- leader to market in specialized accessory chips like LTE, Wifi, USB, ...)

    The two big pieces of a phone that have fallen less than average in cost are the screen and battery, but other than that the resulting devices could conceivably be as good or better than flagship phones/tablets from one year ago without bumping the price. It's phenomenal that all these features that weren't even all in a leading $600 phone less than one year ago, might end up in one that sells for $150-$300 in 6 months.

    They might release more info at MWC in the next couple weeks, naming either design wins or a high end chip as well.

    Seems like a good engine for the Curve line, if other manufacturers don't match price. I'll be really excited if OMAP5 is available in volume by mid-year. RIM has been beaten up by uninformed and misleading hacks and has had no choice but to take the punishment as its hands are tied from decisions made years ago. BB10 will be the first time it can defend itself from potshots that it has been vulnerable to for about 4 years even if the dogpiles are more recent. Other than sentiment by uninformed or deliberately misleading hack reporters, RIM is still a serious chunk of the competitive landscape (go ahead and compare profits, incl. R&D expenses so not just operating, among the mobile ecosystem) and there would be a big hole and lack of competition for a number of years if they didn't get to launch BB10 and see it through 2014 at least

    It's also a huge threat to RIM if they ignore this and squeeze some extra money by extending the lifetime of currently produced devices. The pace of hardware is really fast right now. They can't sit back and let other handset manufacturers walk into their turf and take over a strong area for them without responding with updated hardware/prices.

    It does seem like this chip could blow Windows Phone out of the water. Microsoft has been hanging back, is locked up with Qualcomm for the next year, and has planning its whole strategy on gaining marketshare by first assaulting Android in the $150-$300 space with a combination of big marketing budget and handset manufacturer subsidies. Now there will be Android devices with hardware that is one year newer at the same price point even after the subsidies. By the time Windows Phone 8 / Apollo come out in early 2013 and Microsoft / Windows CE are ready to field a full lineup of phones across the price spectrum and the hardware lockup lifts, it might be too late to build any momentum. It will be over 4 years old, manufacturers who signed up in exchange for patent waivers will walk away, and subsidies or resources drawn from other parts of microsoft like Bing might be cut back. The developer tools are good, but it's a strong all or nothing commitment to only develop under C#, in Visual Studio, on Windows 7/8 based on expectations among those not paid by Microsoft.

    Qualcomm is usually so strong and smooth, but every little error or vulnerability is being turned into opportunity by someone out there. At least they can say that's just part of a good race, and the mistakes aren't fatal like with NVidia
    Last edited by BlendIcier; 02-16-12 at 04:20 PM.
    02-16-12 03:51 PM
  12. BlendIcier's Avatar
    Short summary:

    A legitimate company from Japan by the name Renesas just announced a chip which suggests pricing like the scene from Gladiator where the Romans flank the barbarians
    02-16-12 04:03 PM
  13. CrackedBarry's Avatar
    I do disagree with you on the whole WP7 issue. Firstly: Didn't Nokia announce that they're going to go ahead and release WP7 phones pretty soon, that will be based on ST-Ericssons pretty awesome mulricore NovaThor SOC, and MS had to let them?

    Also: WP7 is so well put together and optimized, that even a pretty significant hardware advantage from Android doesn't necessarily translate into markedly better performance...
    Microsofts Visual Studio also maintains a significant advantage when it comes to development (even over Apple, according to many) and VS brings with it a solid number of developers who might not otherwise consider developing for mobile devices.

    And the last and biggest reason why WP7 shouldn't be counted out yet? Carriers! Last thing they want is a duopoly, so they'll keep supporting and pushing for WP7. (BB7 is a dead platform and nobody knows how BB10 will turn out, so even besides the issue of RIM cutting into carriers profits, the fight will be between Android and WP7 in 2012. If there really IS room for a third mobile OS, that is...).
    02-16-12 07:32 PM
  14. fanatical's Avatar
    I'm kind of making this a general purpose hardware thread -- it's my experience that a simple lack of knowledge or understanding often leaves the blog community around mobile phones outraged or shocked when something is or is not launched at a given time. Well at least the ones with angry commenters and probably deceitful writers, all in the name of pageviews.
    Thanks for this thread! Very informative. A little over my head at times, but still a very good read.
    02-16-12 11:18 PM
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