[Platinum_2]

It certainly sounds like TCL is positioning Blackberry below their own line of phones. With the Plex expected to have pricing around $365US, it's hard to imagine what next generation Blackberries are going to have for a compelling feature set. It is becoming obvious the blackberry brand is on the ropes.

[Chuck Finley69]

My take is that TCL is giving some minor lip service to BB until they run out the 5 year licensing clock, and then, after not having released a new device for 2.5 years, will announce that they tried their best but regrettably, the BB licensing just didn't work out for their market. I suspect that they will do this to meet the bare minimum of "supporting" the BB brand per the terms of their licensing contract.

This sounds the most logical and with each passing day, the most likely scenario. It wouldn’t surprise me if BB realizes this as well but keeps quiet for legal and logical reasons. It’s literally the same play that BB used for BB10 as it prepared to exit mobile hardware but needed to dump BB10 hardware over three years after Chen arrived.

[Platinum_2]

This sounds the most logical and with each passing day, the most likely scenario. It wouldn’t surprise me if BB realizes this as well but keeps quiet for legal and logical reasons. It’s literally the same play that BB used for BB10 as it prepared to exit mobile hardware but needed to dump BB10 hardware over three years after Chen arrived.

Yeah, the ol' (paraphrasing here) "BB10 remains an important part of our strategy as we focus on security software..." tactic. Riiiiiiight.

[Chuck Finley69]

Yeah, the ol' (paraphrasing here) "BB10 remains an important part of our strategy as we focus on security software..." tactic. Riiiiiiight.

It literally couldn’t have been more truthful and still is accurate statement. I’ve never been disappointed with anything I’ve bought. Then again, I’ve been letting the carriers vet the OEMs for 20 years. I’ve never seen advantages that outweighed disadvantages going direct ever. Carrier has the incentive to fight my battles for me.

[BBHermes]

I'm still happy my KEYone has gotten me to Android X with Project Mainline.

First time hearing about this. Could you (or another member) say something more about it?



Posted via CB10

[bb10adopter111]

First time hearing about this. Could you (or another member) say something more about it?



Posted via CB10

Android Q is now Android 10 (X). Project Mainline is Android security system updates delivered through the Play Store. Rather than us explaining it, you'll get better explanation by searching online, but here's a couple of quick links to get you started:

https://www.androidcentral.com/android-10

https://www.androidcentral.com/project-mainline


Composed and edited on the exceptional BlackBerry VKB on my trusty Z10. Any typographic errors, misspellings, or grammatical errors are likely due to my inattention and lack of interest in word-perfect communications on an Internet tech fan forum..

[BBHermes]

Android Q is now Android 10 (X). Project Mainline is Android security system updates delivered through the Play Store. Rather than us explaining it, you'll get better explanation by searching online, but here's a couple of quick links to get you started:

https://www.androidcentral.com/android-10

https://www.androidcentral.com/project-mainline

Many thanks. But does this actually mean that the Keyone can/will get Android 10? I know very little about Android but don't these OS updates also depend to some extent on hardware updates? Related: Even if the Keyone can handle the OS update, would it offer the full Android 10 experience, e.g., gestures etc.?

If it draws significant interest, might be worth moving this discussion to a new thread - if there is not an already existing one (and, obviously, this affects the Key2 as well).

[bb10adopter111]

Many thanks. But does this actually mean that the Keyone can/will get Android 10? I know very little about Android but don't these OS updates also depend to some extent on hardware updates? Related: Even if the Keyone can handle the OS update, would it offer the full Android 10 experience, e.g., gestures etc.?

If it draws significant interest, might be worth moving this discussion to a new thread - if there is not an already existing one (and, obviously, this affects the Key2 as well).

No, there's no indication that any of the BlackBerry Mobile phones will be upgraded to Android 10. It's very, very unlikely.

Also, only phones that ship with Android 10 will be able to utilize Project Mainline.

My point was that, now that Android 10 with Project Mainline will be available, UT will be easier to give up BlackBerry Secure.

==========
Composed and edited on the exceptional BlackBerry VKB on my trusty Z10. Any typographic errors, misspells, or grammatical errors are likely due to my inattention and lack of interest in word-perfect communications on an Internet tech fan forum.

[BBHermes]

No, there's no indication that any of the BlackBerry Mobile phones will be upgraded to Android 10. It's very, very unlikely.

Also, only phones that ship with Android 10 will be able to utilize Project Mainline.

My point was that, now that Android 10 with Project Mainline will be available, UT will be easier to give up BlackBerry Secure.

Ah, totally misunderstood what you said, got it now -)

[mrsimon]

Here's what they are saying in plain English (how they fulfill this is another question as Troy pointed out).
The strategy going forwards is to keep the Blackberry and Palm brands because they cover a special niche market ("unique case uses").
TCL branded phones will aim at the mid-price phone segment, and (bombshell), Blackberry will be positioned below this. And at the bottom, Alcatel, which I've seen in Spain at 150 euros and below.

If they did bring out a Key3 and stuck to that strategy, we can forget upgraded cameras and better processors ¿verdad?

So, on first read it looks positive. On a second read, and without rose-tinted glasses, the future looks rather bleak for us overly loyal fans.

I actually see a KEY 3 here. It'll be the minimum upgrade on the Key2 to justify it as a new model with perhaps one "special" new feature. After one year there will be a new colour and that will get them through to the 5-years.

The one caveat here is the need to come to an agreement with Blackberry Ltd re: licencing commissions.

[Chuck Finley69]

So, on first read it looks positive. On a second read, and without rose-tinted glasses, the future looks rather bleak for us overly loyal fans.

The one caveat here is the need to come to an agreement with Blackberry Ltd re: licencing commissions.

Which is the reason I think we BlackBerry fans are headed for disappointment. Key2 users are expecting PIE and close if not overdue. Key3 can’t be rolled out after Key2 gets PIE as that kills some Key3 demand. If BB and TCL don’t agree on terms no Key2 gets PIE so people won’t trust any Key3 either.

Literally, time for the agreement is running out. While PIE is part of the equation, it’s partly that stretching Oreo puts newer PIE devices farther behind the curve where an OS could almost be skipped and would almost make sense. Like when PRIV and DTEK were dropped and KEYone introduced. Then BlackBerry exit from mobile could be partly blamed. Not as likely this go around.

Also, I suspect TCL really wants to replace Alcatel with it’s own brand. I’m certain that once BB situation is ended between now and five years, if TCL wants to make PKB or even VKB hardware to replace Key# and Motion lines, Palm is 100% owned and could be used. With TCL and Palm, 0% royalties so it’s a no brainer.

[bb10adopter111]

Which is the reason I think we BlackBerry fans are headed for disappointment. Key2 users are expecting PIE and close if not overdue. Key3 can’t be rolled out after Key2 gets PIE as that kills some Key3 demand. If BB and TCL don’t agree on terms no Key2 gets PIE so people won’t trust any Key3 either.

Literally, time for the agreement is running out. While PIE is part of the equation, it’s partly that stretching Oreo puts newer PIE devices farther behind the curve where an OS could almost be skipped and would almost make sense. Like when PRIV and DTEK were dropped and KEYone introduced. Then BlackBerry exit from mobile could be partly blamed. Not as likely this go around.

Also, I suspect TCL really wants to replace Alcatel with it’s own brand. I’m certain that once BB situation is ended between now and five years, if TCL wants to make PKB or even VKB hardware to replace Key# and Motion lines, Palm is 100% owned and could be used. With TCL and Palm, 0% royalties so it’s a no brainer.

I see two possibilities:

1) TCL continues with BlackBerry branded devices. The KEY2 gets Pie, and the KEY3 Key3 ships with Android 10.

2) This is the end of the line. No KEY3, and the KEY2 does or does not get Pie, depending on contractual or liability issues.

[Platinum_2]

I see two possibilities:

1) TCL continues with BlackBerry branded devices. The KEY2 gets Pie, and the KEY3 Key3 ships with Android 10.

2) This is the end of the line. No KEY3, and the KEY2 does or does not get Pie, depending on contractual or liability issues.

#2.

[the_boon]

if TCL wants to make PKB or even VKB hardware to replace Key# and Motion lines, Palm is 100% owned and could be used. With TCL and Palm, 0% royalties so it’s a no brainer.

Sounds good to me.

At least it wouldn't be yet another useless slab of glass.

[Sigewif]

I see two possibilities:

1) TCL continues with BlackBerry branded devices. The KEY2 gets Pie, and the KEY3 Key3 ships with Android 10.

2) This is the end of the line. No KEY3, and the KEY2 does or does not get Pie, depending on contractual or liability issues.

So, cutting to the chase, they (TCL) have spoken quite clearly when they say they are in it for the long haul, they are not phasing out BlackBerry devices, and that BlackBerry fills a niche. The questioning posts amount to being about whether they are telling the truth. The rest of the comments that people here have written, amount to spin or speculation.

[kvndoom]

Yeah, the ol' (paraphrasing here) "BB10 remains an important part of our strategy as we focus on security software..." tactic. Riiiiiiight.

(Dicky Vitale voice) "Fully Committed, bay-bee!"

[bb10adopter111]

So, cutting to the chase, they (TCL) have spoken quite clearly when they say they are in it for the long haul, they are not phasing out BlackBerry devices, and that BlackBerry fills a niche. The questioning posts amount to being about whether they are telling the truth. The rest of the comments that people here have written, amount to spin or speculation.

It's unlikely that they are lying outright, but it's very possible that they are on the fence, waiting to see what the market does. I think the compelling next device would be a KEY3 in Q3 of 2020 running Android 10 with 5G for $650 or so. Most buyers or KEYone and KEY2 will be ready for an upgrade at that point.

==========

Composed and edited on the exceptional BlackBerry VKB on my trusty Z10. Any typographic errors, misspells, or grammatical errors are likely due to my inattention and lack of interest in word-perfect communications on an Internet tech fan forum.

[Troy Tiscareno]

So, cutting to the chase, they (TCL) have spoken quite clearly when they say they are in it for the long haul, they are not phasing out BlackBerry devices, and that BlackBerry fills a niche. The questioning posts amount to being about whether they are telling the truth. The rest of the comments that people here have written, amount to spin or speculation.

Again, they were fully capable of saying "we plan to release a new BB phone soon", but they didn't. Instead, they released platitudes without any direct relevance to the question. That is called "spin" - words that don't answer a direct question but imply an answer that people want to hear, without actually SAYING what they want to hear in a concrete way.

The question is: why would they release spin instead of a real answer? Of course, the answer to that question is almost always "because people aren't going to like the real answer."

[bb10adopter111]

Again, they were fully capable of saying "we plan to release a new BB phone soon", but they didn't. Instead, they released platitudes without any direct relevance to the question. That is called "spin" - words that don't answer a direct question but imply an answer that people want to hear, without actually SAYING what they want to hear in a concrete way.

The question is: why would they release spin instead of a real answer? Of course, the answer to that question is almost always "because people aren't going to like the real answer."

As someone who once headed up customer service for a large company that had a couple million passionate and engaged customers I'd just like to add a little nuance to what you're saying.

The primary reason companies create "talking points" where they guide their executives, partners and other representatives on how to answer "difficult" questions is that the question doesn't have a real answer yet, and they don't want to risk creating more rumors that they can't answer.

As an example, we once acquired a competitor with several hundred thousand users who were very concerned that we were going to shut down the service. Internally, we honestly didn't know if we wanted to integrate it into our service or continue to let it stand alone as a discount "fighting brand" to position against other competitors.

Whenever we presented at trade shows, public events or in online events users would ask us about the future of the service we had acquired because they were passionate about it. Customers also called in and emailed their questions to us.

There was no way we were going to tell them our business strategy, since we didn't want to signal that information to our competitors, and we weren't yet sure ourselves, so we developed a series of responses that were truthful, but vague, along the lines of,

"We recognize that XYZ service has hundreds of thousands of passionate customers, and we agree that it's a great service. That's why we wanted to include it in our offerings! We have no plans to change the pricing or support for XYZ and hope you continue to enjoy it."

==========
Composed and edited on the exceptional BlackBerry VKB on my trusty Z10. Any typographic errors, misspells, or grammatical errors are likely due to my inattention and lack of interest in word-perfect communications on an Internet tech fan forum.

[Sigewif]

As someone who once headed up customer service for a large company that had a couple million passionate and engaged customers I'd just like to add a little nuance to what you're saying.

The primary reason companies create "talking points" where they guide their executives, partners and other representatives on how to answer "difficult" questions is that the question doesn't have a real answer yet, and they don't want to risk creating more rumors that they can't answer.

As an example, we once acquired a competitor with several hundred thousand users who were very concerned that we were going to shut down the service. Internally, we honestly didn't know if we wanted to integrate it into our service or continue to let it stand alone as a discount "fighting brand" to position against other competitors.

Whenever we presented at trade shows, public events or in online events users would ask us about the future of the service we had acquired because they were passionate about it. Customers also called in and emailed their questions to us.

There was no way we were going to tell them our business strategy, since we didn't want to signal that information to our competitors, and we weren't yet sure ourselves, so we developed a series of responses that were truthful, but vague, along the lines of,

"We recognize that XYZ service has hundreds of thousands of passionate customers, and we agree that it's a great service. That's why we wanted to include it in our offerings! We have no plans to change the pricing or support for XYZ and hope you continue to enjoy it."

==========
Composed and edited on the exceptional BlackBerry VKB on my trusty Z10. Any typographic errors, misspells, or grammatical errors are likely due to my inattention and lack of interest in word-perfect communications on an Internet tech fan forum.

So this makes sense. Being "in it for the long haul and not phasing out the brand" indicates that they are likely working on their plans but that they are a little further out than "soon" and are waiting on some market indicators. There are plenty of reasons for this, including the trade situation with China, uncertainty (saturation) in the short term cell phone market, 5G (which Apple is not jumping on either) and other things. I do not think gloom and doom forecasters based on speculation, or post after post of cynical criticism would be a help to any company. Perhaps more posts of what we want to see in a future BlackBerry? Whether they (company decision makers) read them or not, it creates a vibe due to the reach of CB.

[conite]

So this makes sense. Being "in it for the long haul and not phasing out the brand" indicates that they are likely working on their plans but that they are a little further out than "soon" and are waiting on some market indicators. There are plenty of reasons for this, including the trade situation with China, uncertainty (saturation) in the short term cell phone market, 5G (which Apple is not jumping on either) and other things. I do not think gloom and doom forecasters based on speculation, or post after post of cynical criticism would be a help to any company. Perhaps more posts of what we want to see in a future BlackBerry? Whether they (company decision makers) read them or not, it creates a vibe due to the reach of CB.

Future devices will depend on BlackBerry's willingness to significantly drop their fees - which isn't going to happen.

I give a KEY³ a 10% likelihood of ever happening.

[Sigewif]

Future devices will depend on BlackBerry's willingness to significantly drop their fees - which isn't going to happen.

I give a KEY³ a 10% likelihood of ever happening.

And the source of your insider information is....?

[conite]

And the source of your insider information is....?

The kind of answer that would satisfy you wouldn't be something I could tell you if I had it.

[Troy Tiscareno]

And the source of your insider information is....?

BB has been crystal clear in that they are only interested in lines of business that are profitable. BB has real costs associated with their portion of the work that goes into the BB-branded phones - the development and testing of the OS and all of the security patches, as well as any potential major OS. That means there is a minimum amount of money they need to meet costs, plus a profit. If there's no profit, there's no point in BB dealing with the distraction of the device business at all.

TCL went into the deal expecting to sell devices in the millions. In two and a half years, they've sold about 1.1M devices total, and sales have fallen by 50% each year. There's simply not enough money to pay BB when sales are so low, which is why TCL is behind in paying BB. So, that's the catch-22 that TCL is in.

If you open a McDonald's, you've got to sell thousands of meals a day, every day, in order to make a profit, because the cost of rent, utilities, insurance, licensing fees, taxes, food, labor, advertising, etc. has to be met whether you sell 5 burgers a month or 200,000, and while food and labor scale somewhat with sales volume, those other charges are essentially fixed. A McDonald's that doesn't have enough sales, on a sustained basis, will go bankrupt pretty quickly. BBMo has the same problem: they have fixed costs that require a minimum number of sales to meet, and they aren't meeting that minimum - and worse, the sales trend is steeply down. It's one thing to sustain a temporary loss if your trend line is showing sales growth, but when it isn't, you're just throwing good money after bad.

[mrsimon]

The kind of answer that would satisfy you wouldn't be something I could tell you if I had it.

It's a hunch based on the available information. If licence fees are a stumbling block, then a key3 is certainly a 10% bet at best.

But the "it's not over till it's over" will keep hopes alive till the end😉