03-16-16 08:02 AM
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  1. Terser Nori's Avatar
    That's true.

    Therefore anyone who wants to limit their apps to distribution by Google Play need only check to see if you're signed into Google Play and refuse to run if not.

    Since this check is a literal couple of lines of code there's no reason not to do it if you care. Of course should Google and BlackBerry come to an agreement on loading Google Play on BB10 devices (E.g. via a BlackBerry World download).....

    Further, stripping such a check (while technically possible if you know what you're doing) is illegal. That, if you do so, is piracy.

    The fact is that most app developers don't care; indeed, they'd rather that the maximum number of people run their apps irrespective of how they obtained or or on what device it is being used because they're getting paid by advertising revenue displayed in the application -- the more eyeballs the more revenue they receive.
    I think it really comes down to the app, the type of service the app provides, and the developers themselves. Some apps use services that the developers might have to pay for, as per users. They might face a penalty caused by having unauthorized devices active. Maybe they do not get ad credits for these devices, but the unauthorized users take up bandwidth.
    This I only speculate, but it can be possible within certain situations.

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 01:58 PM
  2. chuka101's Avatar
    The app gap isn't gone....90% of those who use BlackBerries do not even know about side-loading or what an apk is...it would be better if they have a section in BlackBerry world for working android apps. Then the app gap would truly be closing
    bbq10l likes this.
    11-16-13 02:00 PM
  3. bekkay's Avatar
    Android is by definition open source.

    This is how Amazon and others forked it; they had every right to do so for that very reason.

    Never mind that it is generally unlawful to tie sales; go ask IBM about that. But in this case it's immaterial since the predicate (the operating system) is an open-source thing and thus there is no base limiting factor on what is an "Android device" other than someone's willingness (e.g. BlackBerry) to compile and include the open-source code on their hardware.
    Android is open-source. But having just one part of Android, namely the Dalvik VM, doesn't make a BB10 device an Android device.
    11-16-13 02:02 PM
  4. Terser Nori's Avatar
    The app gap isn't gone....90% of those who use BlackBerries do not even know about side-loading or what an apk is...it would be better if they have a section in BlackBerry world for working android apps. Then the app gap would truly be closing
    They should have a section for written permission from the app developer stating that they don't mind that Thier apps are being sideloaded on BlackBerry devices.



    Posted via CB10
    bekkay likes this.
    11-16-13 02:04 PM
  5. bekkay's Avatar
    Absolutely 100% wrong, and I think you know it.
    You have no right to guess what devs want to do with their apps, and then use their ip in a way they didn't intend it to be used.
    There is a reason, for the thousandth time, why BlackBerry and their reps will no specifically recommend sideloading or endorse the sideloading of these other app stores.

    Posted via CB10
    They actually explicitly stated that sideloading is a developer feature (i.e. testing and officially ported apps):

    "Side-loading is a developer feature. It exists so that developers can load their apps onto their own devices to test. It’s there so developers can send a beta release to their testing community for review. It is definitely not there for some people to side load a pirated app." Alec Saunders
    11-16-13 02:11 PM
  6. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    They should have a section for written permission from the app developer stating that they don't mind that Thier apps are being sideloaded on BlackBerry devices.


    Posted via CB10
    Which would be seen as explicit agreement and would also entitle the app user to some sort of support.

    Posted via CB10
    bobauckland likes this.
    11-16-13 02:16 PM
  7. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    They actually explicitly stated that sideloading is a developer feature (i.e. testing and officially ported apps):

    "Side-loading is a developer feature. It exists so that developers can load their apps onto their own devices to test. Itís there so developers can send a beta release to their testing community for review. It is definitely not there for some people to side load a pirated app." Alec Saunders
    Link please!

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 02:16 PM
  8. bekkay's Avatar
    11-16-13 02:21 PM
  9. tickerguy's Avatar
    They actually explicitly stated that sideloading is a developer feature (i.e. testing and officially ported apps):

    "Side-loading is a developer feature. It exists so that developers can load their apps onto their own devices to test. Itís there so developers can send a beta release to their testing community for review. It is definitely not there for some people to side load a pirated app." Alec Saunders
    It seems that Alec has changed his mind (well, maybe the market changed it for him):

    Android APK's on BlackBerry 10 FAQ

    Q1. What's the main message here?
    A1. Alec told us that the BIG MESSAGE here is that BlackBerry is upping their game for Android support. It means they're comfortable with the performance they are getting out of the 4.2.2 runtime on BlackBerry 10 and the experience Android apps are delivering on the platform to users. It's offering "more choice for more customers because that's what customers have asked us to do."


    Talking OS 10.2.1 and Android apps on BB10 FAQ, w/ BlackBerry's Alec Saunders | CrackBerry.com

    Oops....
    11-16-13 02:23 PM
  10. Terser Nori's Avatar
    Which would be seen as explicit agreement and would also entitle the app user to some sort of support.

    Posted via CB10
    The permission could be stated as "as is", without any implications of support. Meaning that the developer can just state "hey guys I don't mind if you sideload, but I'm not going to put any effort in optimising it for your device", and after that the developer can also revoke access whenever the choose to.

    I personally won't be side loading apps, but at least there will be real cause of justification for the people who allready do.

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 02:26 PM
  11. bekkay's Avatar
    It seems that Alec has changed his mind (well, maybe the market changed it for him):



    Talking OS 10.2.1 and Android apps on BB10 FAQ, w/ BlackBerry's Alec Saunders | CrackBerry.com

    Oops....

    Lol, this is so BlackBerry.

    In any case, he never explicitly stated it is OK to run sideloaded APKs. He is saying if you are OK with that, go for it.

    Just like on Android, you can load APKs, but that doesn't mean your actions are legal or ethical.
    Terser Nori and JeepBB like this.
    11-16-13 02:34 PM
  12. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    I'll just quote myself again...



    Apart from that, BB10 doesn't run the whole Android OS and only because an APK can run on a BB10 device doesn't make it an Android device.

    What is so hard to understand about the fact that as long as this isn't officially supported, with official support channels and an officially supported app store for Android apps on BB10, this isn't any legitimate solution of getting apps?

    It's just sideloading 2.0 without as much tinkering, but IT'S NOTHING OFFICIAL.

    Posted via CB10
    What is being done in 10.2.1.1055 is not "sideloading" in the sense that we've come to know it from the PlayBook and on BB10.

    And, actually, BB10 DOES run "the whole Android OS". The only thing it's missing is GOOGLE PLAY SERVICES. This is significant, sure since virtually every Android phone sold in North America is certified by Google and does run GPlay Services, but there's nothing forcing vendors to do this. There are millions of phones sold in other markets. In fact, even here in North America there are dozens of cheap tablets and the like that come with a full implementation of Android. They don't have Google Play, but given their price nobody expects it.

    They can do this because plain old Android is free, Open Source software. That's what BlackBerry has implemented here in 10.2.1. It doesn't run everything; the odd app seems to have orientation issues, and anything that needs Google Play Services to run has trouble. But a remarkable number of apps just install and run reasonably well. I'd personally prefer them all to be native BB10, sure, but I'll take an Android app over no app at all at this point.

    And if it's "nothing official", why does BB10 offer an installation interface WITHIN THE OS, including a lengthy disclaimer?
    11-16-13 02:36 PM
  13. bekkay's Avatar
    And, actually, BB10 DOES run "the whole Android OS".
    No, it doesn't.

    Here is "the whole Android OS". Find the part BB10 runs.

    JeepBB and Rolf Hed like this.
    11-16-13 02:40 PM
  14. bp3dots's Avatar
    What is being done in 10.2.1.1055 is not "sideloading" in the sense that we've come to know it from the PlayBook and on BB10.

    And, actually, BB10 DOES run "the whole Android OS". The only thing it's missing is GOOGLE PLAY SERVICES. This is significant, sure since virtually every Android phone sold in North America is certified by Google and does run GPlay Services, but there's nothing forcing vendors to do this. There are millions of phones sold in other markets. In fact, even here in North America there are dozens of cheap tablets and the like that come with a full implementation of Android. They don't have Google Play, but given their price nobody expects it.

    They can do this because plain old Android is free, Open Source software. That's what BlackBerry has implemented here in 10.2.1. It doesn't run everything; the odd app seems to have orientation issues, and anything that needs Google Play Services to run has trouble. But a remarkable number of apps just install and run reasonably well. I'd personally prefer them all to be native BB10, sure, but I'll take an Android app over no app at all at this point.

    And if it's "nothing official", why does BB10 offer an installation interface WITHIN THE OS, including a lengthy disclaimer?
    So, I can run a full install of Android on a BB10 device?
    11-16-13 02:46 PM
  15. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    They should have a section for written permission from the app developer stating that they don't mind that Thier apps are being sideloaded on BlackBerry devices.



    Posted via CB10
    No, because they're not being run as BlackBerry apps.

    This argument applies under the ORIGINAL sideloading scheme, because apps had to be signed and repackaged before they could be installed, and ethically this couldn't be done without the publisher's consent. So, for instance, the repackaged .BAR files that the GoodEreader site offers technically are pirated.

    In this case, there are a number of 3rd party app stores that offer the APKs directly. In many cases, the app store is legitimate and has the publisher's explicit consent, and they market to users with devices that aren't allowed to use Google Play. Amazon's app store most certainly falls in this category. The big, game-changing difference with 10.2.1 is that these APKs can now be installed without modification, meaning that for all intents and purposes, BB10 is actually running Android. And not even some cheap old version of Android, either, but 4.2.2 Jelly Bean.

    There is no misrepresentation here. The Android runtime is a legitimate implementation (if it weren't Google would have made it clear LONG ago), and it has now been unlocked to the point where apps no longer require repackaging.
    11-16-13 02:47 PM
  16. stevenjamesclark's Avatar
    So Android apps won't work on the Q10. Rubbish!

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 02:48 PM
  17. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    So, I can run a full install of Android on a BB10 device?
    The 10.2.1.1055 leak includes a full implementation of Jelly Bean 4.2.2.
    11-16-13 02:50 PM
  18. bekkay's Avatar
    No, because they're not being run as BlackBerry apps.

    This argument applies under the ORIGINAL sideloading scheme, because apps had to be signed and repackaged before they could be installed, and ethically this couldn't be done without the publisher's consent. So, for instance, the repackaged .BAR files that the GoodEreader site offers technically are pirated.

    In this case, there are a number of 3rd party app stores that offer the APKs directly. In many cases, the app store is legitimate and has the publisher's explicit consent, and they market to users with devices that aren't allowed to use Google Play. Amazon's app store most certainly falls in this category. The big, game-changing difference with 10.2.1 is that these APKs can now be installed without modification, meaning that for all intents and purposes, BB10 is actually running Android. And not even some cheap old version of Android, either, but 4.2.2 Jelly Bean.

    There is no misrepresentation here. The Android runtime is a legitimate implementation (if it weren't Google would have made it clear LONG ago), and it has now been unlocked to the point where apps no longer require repackaging.
    Amazon ToS:

    "After you order an App and pay any corresponding price to us, you may download a copy of the App for your personal use to a device on which you have installed and signed in to our Appstore Software. Apps can be used only on mobile devices that use the Android platform and meet certain other technical requirements. Generally, App mobile device requirements are described on or through our App detail pages."
    JeepBB likes this.
    11-16-13 02:50 PM
  19. Terser Nori's Avatar
    No, because they're not being run as BlackBerry apps.

    This argument applies under the ORIGINAL sideloading scheme, because apps had to be signed and repackaged before they could be installed, and ethically this couldn't be done without the publisher's consent. So, for instance, the repackaged .BAR files that the GoodEreader site offers technically are pirated.

    In this case, there are a number of 3rd party app stores that offer the APKs directly. In many cases, the app store is legitimate and has the publisher's explicit consent, and they market to users with devices that aren't allowed to use Google Play. Amazon's app store most certainly falls in this category. The big, game-changing difference with 10.2.1 is that these APKs can now be installed without modification, meaning that for all intents and purposes, BB10 is actually running Android. And not even some cheap old version of Android, either, but 4.2.2 Jelly Bean.

    There is no misrepresentation here. The Android runtime is a legitimate implementation (if it weren't Google would have made it clear LONG ago), and it has now been unlocked to the point where apps no longer require repackaging.
    Where are the .Apk files coming from?

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 02:54 PM
  20. anon(3732391)'s Avatar
    (as whinny as possible....)
    Why doesn't BlackBerry offer more colors?
    I mean, it's so hard to coordinate what to wear and show off the same old Black phone all the time.
    My friends thought I couldn't afford clothes and took me shopping the other day.
    I mean, we have BlackBerry's for only one reason, right?
    Style!!

    Well, actually two reasons.
    So the whiners have something to complain about or the complainers have something to whine about!
    (does that count as one or two?)

    Besides, I don't buy my apps at the Gap, anyway!

    I mean, Really!!

    BlackStormRising likes this.
    11-16-13 02:55 PM
  21. Terser Nori's Avatar
    Where are the .Apk files coming from?

    Posted via CB10
    Okay nvm from legitimate 3rd party non Google play sources like amazon.

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 02:55 PM
  22. missing_K-W's Avatar
    I want mobile computing. The days of walled garden experiences are over.

    BB10 allows for full computing capabilities. We don't have a dumbed down os on a mobile device. People need to realize this. This includes having easy access to software, services and capabilities.
    Last edited by missing_K-W; 11-17-13 at 04:34 PM.
    11-16-13 03:01 PM
  23. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Where are the .Apk files coming from?

    Posted via CB10
    In theory, you can search for APKs and download them from anywhere, though I'd advise against that seeing as there are no checks for piracy or malware.

    There are legitimate 3rd party Android app stores (Bla1ze published a list here) that have their own agreements with developers and distribute apps for devices that aren't certified for Google Play Services. I've used both 1mobile and Amazon's App Store with great results.
    Terser Nori likes this.
    11-16-13 03:02 PM
  24. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Amazon ToS:

    "After you order an App and pay any corresponding price to us, you may download a copy of the App for your personal use to a device on which you have installed and signed in to our Appstore Software. Apps can be used only on mobile devices that use the Android platform and meet certain other technical requirements. Generally, App mobile device requirements are described on or through our App detail pages."
    Yes. Amazon's App Store installs just fine on the 10.2.1.1055 leak, and the implementation meets Amazon's "certain other technical requirements".
    11-16-13 03:04 PM
  25. bekkay's Avatar
    Yes. Amazon's App Store installs just fine on the 10.2.1.1055 leak, and the implementation meets Amazon's "certain other technical requirements".
    "Apps can be used only on mobile devices that use the Android platform"
    JeepBB likes this.
    11-16-13 03:04 PM
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