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07-19-16 08:50 PM
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  1. idssteve's Avatar
    Why would bbos or BIS be required to provide a handset sized to fit a human hand? Or provide a swappable battery? Or a convenience key? Or any number of UI refinements?

    I don't believe most users really care whether it's using Java, qnx, droid, or 8 monkeys using 8 bit abacuses. It's all about the user experience once the handset is in hand. Most of the consumer market clearly rejected BlackBerry years ago. That doesn't mean that ALL of BB's market rejected "BlackBerry Experience".
    05-25-16 08:23 AM
  2. DamianWarS's Avatar
    Why would bbos or BIS be required to provide a handset sized to fit a human hand? Or provide a swappable battery? Or a convenience key? Or any number of UI refinements?

    I don't believe most users really care whether it's using Java, qnx, droid, or 8 monkeys using 8 bit abacuses. It's all about the user experience once the handset is in hand. Most of the consumer market clearly rejected BlackBerry years ago. That doesn't mean that ALL of BB's market rejected "BlackBerry Experience".
    I think the plural of abacus is abaci
    idssteve likes this.
    05-25-16 09:30 AM
  3. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Why would bbos or BIS be required to provide a handset sized to fit a human hand? Or provide a swappable battery? Or a convenience key? Or any number of UI refinements?

    I don't believe most users really care whether it's using Java, qnx, droid, or 8 monkeys using 8 bit abacuses. It's all about the user experience once the handset is in hand. Most of the consumer market clearly rejected BlackBerry years ago. That doesn't mean that ALL of BB's market rejected "BlackBerry Experience".
    Well at least the 9900 has a 4:3 screen format that is Android eligible. If it had reasonable internals, a good battery , better camera, the 9900 case , keypad and track pad along with a iPhone SE price, the sales would be good . By good, I mean better than the PRIV. The key here is being on Android. A one handed PKB on Android.
    idssteve and Wmsi like this.
    05-25-16 09:55 AM
  4. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    I would suggest that the vast majority of BBOS devices still in use are in Indonesia, Africa and India as well as scattered individuals everywhere.

    Posted via CB10
    I thought this too, until I started asking a few of my Indonesian friends. Sure they are in use, but now even Cheap Android touchscreen phones are the first choice, with iphones being considered the more expensive choice.



    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    BigBadWulf and TgeekB like this.
    05-25-16 11:00 AM
  5. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I thought this too, until I started asking a few of my Indonesian friends. Sure they are in use, but now even Cheap Android touchscreen phones are the first choice, with iphones being considered the more expensive choice.



    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    Very true but these phones are still in use as hand me downs. These markets are so large that a couple of million phones do not make a dent. I think together they are as large as the USA.

    Just got back from the greater Toronto area. I used to always see BlackBerry's there but on this trip , I never saw any . I always look for BB's
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    05-25-16 11:25 AM
  6. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    Very true but these phones are still in use as hand me downs. These markets are so large that a couple of million phones do not make a dent. I think together they are as large as the USA.

    Just got back from the greater Toronto area. I used to always see BlackBerry's there but on this trip , I never saw any . I always look for BB's
    Have you seen the footage of some of the Syrian refugees? Even they had iPhone 6's But yeah, for the most part, more rare in the wild.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    05-25-16 11:58 AM
  7. terminatorx's Avatar
    I loved my 9930, but it doesn't meet the needs of almost anyone in the consumer market.
    Doesn't meet the needs of almost anyone in cosumer market? That's quite the overstatement. It isn't the most cutting edge phone, but it can still meet the needs of a decent amount of consumers. Its a lot more advanced than the original RAZR, that's for sure.
    05-25-16 12:32 PM
  8. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    I would suggest that the vast majority of BBOS devices still in use are in Indonesia, Africa and India as well as scattered individuals everywhere.

    Posted via CB10
    Excellent point. We could argue over percentages, but either way, those people most likely use BBOS because it's the cheapest way to go, and even if it's out of love, could BlackBerry produce an updated version for cheap enough to sell?

    Actually those enterprise are probably long gone, they might not have much say in what phone they use but you can bet enterprise customers break their phones very often, and there are no replacements being made. Not for a long time.

    Most likely the remaining BBOS users are private people who either like bbos too much or they don't like change (like my wife) and they would buy an updated one in a heart beat.
    I think the number of high security Enterprise users would surprise you.

    Doesn't meet the needs of almost anyone in cosumer market? That's quite the overstatement. It isn't the most cutting edge phone, but it can still meet the needs of a decent amount of consumers. Its a lot more advanced than the original RAZR, that's for sure.
    Let me clarify myself. In the smartphone consumer market.
    05-25-16 12:53 PM
  9. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I think there is a market for a 9900 with no BIS and running Android in the same markets they were previously popular. A niche market.

    I loved the 9900 form factor and obviously many here do as well. If they were to make a 9900 Android update it would have to go head to head with the iPhone SE in terms of performance, and price.

    If they did make an Android 9900 please change the battery cover. I almost lost a nail.
    05-25-16 01:07 PM
  10. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    If they did make an Android 9900 please change the battery cover. I almost lost a nail.
    Presumably, you wouldn't need to open the battery door as often on an android-based Bold.
    05-25-16 07:08 PM
  11. Loc22's Avatar
    I think if BlackBerry knows what's good for them they should shut down BIS ASAP. Get rid of the legacy devices asap too and move on with the Android and BlackBerry 10 OS devices. Then people will eventually move on to Android or BlackBerry 10 if they want to.

    This choice of having a legacy device is too expensive for them to manage and is drying up their resources. It is also fragmenting the BlackBerry fan Base that's why there are no apps in BlackBerry 10. The majority of the users just do not want to switch and this is just human nature, most human beings just don't like to change.

    However like other successful companies they just change and let the user Base know that they no longer support the older version people just follow. A good example is Microsoft .

    Posted via CB10
    05-25-16 08:37 PM
  12. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    There will always be people who like the old devices for one reason or another. I can stay legacy without BIS, and with few compromises that matter to me.

    BTW, there's also Whited00r for iOS and ROMs that keep old Android devices useful for years after official support ends. The difference is that when you're successful, those of us who stick with the old devices don't matter.
    05-25-16 09:43 PM
  13. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I think if BlackBerry knows what's good for them they should shut down BIS ASAP. Get rid of the legacy devices asap too and move on with the Android and BlackBerry 10 OS devices. Then people will eventually move on to Android or BlackBerry 10 if they want to.

    This choice of having a legacy device is too expensive for them to manage and is drying up their resources. It is also fragmenting the BlackBerry fan Base that's why there are no apps in BlackBerry 10. The majority of the users just do not want to switch and this is just human nature, most human beings just don't like to change.

    However like other successful companies they just change and let the user Base know that they no longer support the older version people just follow. A good example is Microsoft .

    Posted via CB10
    I think they make some money from service fees and it is very doubtful that many would migrate to new BlackBerry devices if they have not done so already.
    JeepBB likes this.
    05-25-16 10:32 PM
  14. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    I think if BlackBerry knows what's good for them they should shut down BIS ASAP. Get rid of the legacy devices asap too and move on with the Android and BlackBerry 10 OS devices. Then people will eventually move on to Android or BlackBerry 10 if they want to.

    This choice of having a legacy device is too expensive for them to manage and is drying up their resources. It is also fragmenting the BlackBerry fan Base that's why there are no apps in BlackBerry 10. The majority of the users just do not want to switch and this is just human nature, most human beings just don't like to change.

    However like other successful companies they just change and let the user Base know that they no longer support the older version people just follow. A good example is Microsoft .

    Posted via CB10
    Good thing you're not in charge. Legacy software is already developed and perfected and you can believe that it costs a LOT more for any new development than to maintain an already existing Infastructure. There are supposedly over 11 million clients still using Legacy and to shut them entirely down would likely end it all for the company, just another blow to the already fed up masses that keep complaining. NO ONE would stick with Blackberry in the future if they tried to pull a stunt like that. Sure some American carriers are doing it with BIS, Europe too, but to kill it off entirely in North America would have severe consequences whether you appreciate it or not.
    Last edited by Ralph Morgotch; 05-26-16 at 12:21 AM.
    terminatorx likes this.
    05-25-16 10:47 PM
  15. idssteve's Avatar
    I think if BlackBerry knows what's good for them they should shut down BIS ASAP. Get rid of the legacy devices asap too and move on with the Android and BlackBerry 10 OS devices. Then people will eventually move on to Android or BlackBerry 10 if they want to.

    This choice of having a legacy device is too expensive for them to manage and is drying up their resources. It is also fragmenting the BlackBerry fan Base that's why there are no apps in BlackBerry 10. The majority of the users just do not want to switch and this is just human nature, most human beings just don't like to change.

    However like other successful companies they just change and let the user Base know that they no longer support the older version people just follow. A good example is Microsoft .

    Posted via CB10
    I think that BlackBerry DOES know what's good for them. Last I heard BIS was still high margin revenue. Why do you think Chen wouldn't shut it down the minute it becomes unprofitable?

    How do you propose they "get rid of legacy devices"?? Confiscate them? ?? What makes you think that legacy users angered by such actions would ever buy a Blackberry again? What makes you think that the people who "move on" to android won't just buy Samsung? Why should ANYone expect the same treatment won't be applied to BB10 users next year?? Given BB's current offerings, if strong arm coerced into android, Apple is where I'd go, today. My Classic, PassPort, Z30 and Q10 goes to eBay the next day. Human nature.

    What part of human nature does NOT want to switch to a newer and BETTER device? Provide an upgraded device I like BETTER than the 9900 I'm typing this on and I'll RUN to be first in line!

    THE way to "get rid of legacy devices" is to provide a product that legacy users can perceive as a TRUE upgrade! That starts with at least TRYing to understand why legacy users are still legacy users.

    Unsubstantiated condescending stereotypes like "corporate slaves" or "impoverished third world tribesmen" who are just "stuck in there ways", perpetuated by people who no longer even use the device in question, fail to grasp the fact that the new way is simply not a better way for some of us. How do you seek to understand something you no longer use yourself?

    As a legacy user myself, I understand that omitting toolbelt & shortcuts from Q10 was insultingly idiotic. I understand that slapping a half baked toolbelt onto an oversized, overweight, top heavy, non-swappable battery Classic provides zero upgrade path from 9900.

    Microsoft historically provides a reasonably coherent upgrade path. AND reasonable UI consistency. I can turn off my 1995 Win95 machine and turn to my 2016 Win10 machine and STILL find the "Start" button. The market punishes them when they digress from that policy. As in Win8? Lol.

    Microsoft provides FREE upgrade to Win10 from Win7/8. Maybe BB should offer legacy users free upgrades to android?? Lol. If they did, at this point, I'd likely sell my free Priv and buy an eBay 9900... And then get back to work! Lol.
    JeepBB and terminatorx like this.
    05-26-16 06:12 AM
  16. DamianWarS's Avatar
    I think that BlackBerry DOES know what's good for them. Last I heard BIS was still high margin revenue. Why do you think Chen wouldn't shut it down the minute it becomes unprofitable?

    How do you propose they "get rid of legacy devices"?? Confiscate them? ?? What makes you think that legacy users angered by such actions would ever buy a Blackberry again? What makes you think that the people who "move on" to android won't just buy Samsung? Why should ANYone expect the same treatment won't be applied to BB10 users next year?? Given BB's current offerings, if strong arm coerced into android, Apple is where I'd go, today. My Classic, PassPort, Z30 and Q10 goes to eBay the next day. Human nature.

    What part of human nature does NOT want to switch to a newer and BETTER device? Provide an upgraded device I like BETTER than the 9900 I'm typing this on and I'll RUN to be first in line!

    THE way to "get rid of legacy devices" is to provide a product that legacy users can perceive as a TRUE upgrade! That starts with at least TRYing to understand why legacy users are still legacy users.

    Unsubstantiated condescending stereotypes like "corporate slaves" or "impoverished third world tribesmen" who are just "stuck in there ways", perpetuated by people who no longer even use the device in question, fail to grasp the fact that the new way is simply not a better way for some of us. How do you seek to understand something you no longer use yourself?

    As a legacy user myself, I understand that omitting toolbelt & shortcuts from Q10 was insultingly idiotic. I understand that slapping a half baked toolbelt onto an oversized, overweight, top heavy, non-swappable battery Classic provides zero upgrade path from 9900.

    Microsoft historically provides a reasonably coherent upgrade path. AND reasonable UI consistency. I can turn off my 1995 Win95 machine and turn to my 2016 Win10 machine and STILL find the "Start" button. The market punishes them when they digress from that policy. As in Win8? Lol.

    Microsoft provides FREE upgrade to Win10 from Win7/8. Maybe BB should offer legacy users free upgrades to android?? Lol. If they did, at this point, I'd likely sell my free Priv and buy an eBay 9900... And then get back to work! Lol.
    Incremental changes are common in the industry and create strong brand association among generations but they also lock the developer into a system where they can't make too aggressive changes. Windows experienced this with windows 8 where they push an aggressive shift into a tablet UI and it has had a negative effect. Windows 10 has tried to make a better transition into this shift but they had to give it away for people to upgrade. It is clear the direction microsoft wants their OS to be in which is away from the classic windows 95 and towards a large multi touch UI. They are actually right about this because the industry's demand is moving to a multi touch interface and away from the classic mouse/keyboard driven systems. This isn't their first time making a large leap either just try and use Windows 3.1 and Windows 10 and see how well they mirror each other.

    The first iPhone basically works the same as the most recent and they have a reputation with a teflon coating where they can do anything and it's always comes back as the greatest even if it's not. Their OS however suffers from a UI that inherently is too simple that can't keep up with the multi-communication demands of today. This is because it is based on the needs and demand of 2007 and incremental changes have turned it into what it is today. It is a premium product with band aids all over it to superimpose an OS that fits into today's demand but strip away all the glitter and you get a sub-par OS that can't keep up. Apple will have to make an aggressive change to get out of this model and their sales are already showing that change is needed.

    BlackBerry did that aggressive change albeit too late. They didn't have time to transition bbos to bb10 because they waited too long. You may love legacy BlackBerry but love it hate it Apple change the market in 2007 and the market doesn't want bbos anymore. The masses typically win over the few. Bb10 is a great OS and is better prepared for the demand of what a mobile OS needs but because they have no apps no one cares and frankly they have a point.

    I use my BlackBerry chiefly for communication and rely on a device that can email/text and write and edit docs on the go fast and BB10 delivers. I use my ipad for other junk.
    05-26-16 08:25 AM
  17. idssteve's Avatar
    If your new "revolutionary" concept is truly better AND you've genuinely explained WHY it's better, the masses will demand it. No matter how much better us "experts" might think a new concept is, if it's not TRULY providing value that the target market cares about, all the authoritarian coercion on the planet won't make them like it.

    That's fine if you have all the customers you want. Not so fine if you're hunting customers.
    05-26-16 09:48 AM
  18. Loc22's Avatar
    Just would like to find out from those of you out there who still love the legacy devices so much for whatever reason.

    As you all know that there are no more legacy devices being manufactured over the last few years. When the stocks of these devices run out and they no longer are available on eBay or Amazon, what device would you switch to if your device should cease to work?

    If the BlackBerry Passport is still available for sale together with a plethora of other Android and iOS devices avalanche out there. Which device would have migrate to?

    Posted via CB10
    05-26-16 01:05 PM
  19. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Good thing you're not in charge. Legacy software is already developed and perfected and you can believe that it costs a LOT more for any new development than to maintain an already existing Infastructure. There are supposedly over 11 million clients still using Legacy and to shut them entirely down would likely end it all for the company, just another blow to the already fed up masses that keep complaining. NO ONE would stick with Blackberry in the future if they tried to pull a stunt like that. Sure some American carriers are doing it with BIS, Europe too, but to kill it off entirely in North America would have severe consequences whether you appreciate it or not.
    Legacy software is perfect? Number of security breaches have been found in using the BBOS Browser.

    It does cost carriers to maintain that infrastructure... most will keep doing it as long as they are making money. But at some point that 11 Million spread out all over the world is going to become too small in a market here and then there and eventually everywhere.

    Me... I can't imagine using 2G (BIS always made my BlackBerry's slower than other phones while browsing) technology in a 4G+ world. But I understand if other are more comfortable or their needs are better meet with BBOS.
    05-26-16 02:20 PM
  20. world traveler and former ceo's Avatar
    While I loved the b9900 the camera even back then really sucked... they really dropped the ball then on what was otherwise a great phone... lost a lot of users then....

    Posted via CB10
    05-26-16 03:50 PM
  21. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    Legacy software is perfect? Number of security breaches have been found in using the BBOS Browser.

    It does cost carriers to maintain that infrastructure... most will keep doing it as long as they are making money. But at some point that 11 Million spread out all over the world is going to become too small in a market here and then there and eventually everywhere.

    Me... I can't imagine using 2G (BIS always made my BlackBerry's slower than other phones while browsing) technology in a 4G+ world. But I understand if other are more comfortable or their needs are better meet with BBOS.
    Legacy software imo was "perfected" in the final stages, and it was not bogged down by bloatware. Any device now is INSECURE, and I never consider anything to be hack free, especially my iphone after the FBI fiasco. It has been years since updates so we realize NOTHING is secure, but you have to realize that BBOS was basically worked on for what, 10 years? So I consider it a very functional software and device if one does not need a multitude of apps, and overall it has been refined moreso than others IMO.

    My point was NOT that Legacy software does not cost ANY money, my point was that it does not cost AS MUCH to maintain an infastructure that is already there and has been refined over years and years of use.

    Just because Blackberry CAN pull the plug, it does not mean they should pull the plug. They would be wise to keep their loyal users because many might migrate to a newer Blackberry. But pull the plug and that's all she wrote for millions, they simply would not likely stay.

    Who is on 2G? I'm on H+ speeds and loving it.

    It is my understanding that the 11/12 million is more than all BB10 users and you can bet if they pull the plug on Legacy, they will pull it on BB10 next or shortly after OR at the same time.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    05-26-16 06:06 PM
  22. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    Just would like to find out from those of you out there who still love the legacy devices so much for whatever reason.

    what device would you switch to if your device should cease to work?
    People are still buying new sealed in the box 9900's from Amazon

    I'm going to use this Legacy for as long as I can, at least until the years end until Whatsapp is no longer supported. But who really knows if WA will still function? Does anybody know? After that I might continue still or use my 5C again for a while and probably by then we will all know more about Blackberry's outcome and future and see what tomorrow brings.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    05-26-16 06:28 PM
  23. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    While I loved the b9900 the camera even back then really sucked... they really dropped the ball then on what was otherwise a great phone... lost a lot of users then....

    Posted via CB10
    I do miss the autofocus camera from my 9790 and even my 9780 and it does bite when I have to take a pic of a newspaper clipping and it never comes out too sharp when I have to email it to someone. For outdoor sun, or indoor with flash and 720p video it is a very good camera in comparison.
    05-26-16 07:03 PM
  24. idssteve's Avatar
    BB hasn't updated BBOS for several years. AFAIK, no further updates are expected. Other than BIS, which they get paid for, what legacy "infrastructure" are they currently spending ANYthing on?

    @Dunt: Not sure what you mean by "2G"?? My 9930 is 3G. 7.1's browser is no speed monster and I, myself, don't use it for anything security critical. Mostly because its been so many years since updated. I've been unable to find authoritative info on its security weaknesses. Can you direct me to a source for that info?

    @loc22: There IS life after BIS. Shuswap has blazed the trail for keeping BBOS devices running after BIS disappears. In fact, I'd anticipate being forced to retire my Classic for battery failure well before 9900 becomes unusable. If 11-12M bbos are too few for the trouble, what's that make 8-9M BB10?

    9900's 1.2ghz processor, along with its exquisite keyboard and compact design will keep it my favorite until something better happens. I'll carry it as a pocket calendar, if nothing else. If it becomes unusable, and unavailable on eBay, I'd probably see how far I can nurse Classic along but, there really is NO reasonable substitute for a 9900. Not even close. Quite a few of us feel the same way. A natural niche opportunity for an astute enough niche producer to market to, it seems to me. Why this fails to be a "no brainer" around here befuddles me.
    05-27-16 06:29 AM
  25. idssteve's Avatar
    While I loved the b9900 the camera even back then really sucked... they really dropped the ball then on what was otherwise a great phone... lost a lot of users then....

    Posted via CB10
    100% agree. 9900's camera is lame. Always heard it was the best they could fit, at the time, into 9900's thin form factor. ?? Certainly a missed market opportunity by failing to follow up with a "9900-C" with improved camera, once technology caught up. But, they were going for broke on BB10 so no time for legacy follow-up. Funny thing, when you go for broke, there's always the chance you'll get there. Lol.
    Last edited by idssteve; 05-27-16 at 07:14 AM.
    Bbnivende likes this.
    05-27-16 06:45 AM
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