07-19-16 08:50 PM
910 ... 1819202122 ...
tools
  1. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I think the figure has been downgraded to 5 million BlackBerry Android devices due to cheaper operating costs.

    Posted via CB10
    Would be nice if they passed the savings to their potential customers wouldn't it? But no, they want iPhone money for the Priv.
    Bbnivende likes this.
    03-19-16 07:40 AM
  2. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The key to conversion in many parts of the world would be for BlackBerry offer a phone where the user can retain his current cheap data plan. This is the main reason why legacy users have not updated their devices. Does not have to be BBOS but it could be.

    Posted via CB10
    03-19-16 09:04 AM
  3. tangozulu's Avatar
    I think the app gap will have the same affect on both BBOS or BB10

    Posted via CB10
    03-19-16 09:16 AM
  4. idssteve's Avatar
    Don't need to. It's 5M or no hardware division.



    Your logic is still flawed. It's not like phone manufacturers (the non-mobile kind) still make rotary phones to maintain " presence".
    Well, since we're really only creating "virtual" solutions to a "virtual" problem, my logic wasn't intended to be flawless. My virtual logic is still evolving. Is yours?

    From my perspective, your market logic is wrong. Carriers providing BIS to current customers aren't doing so out of any kindness for BB itself. They're doing so to keep their current customers happy. (what a novel concept!! Lol)

    That "presence" might be leveraged to command credibility with carriers thru popular demand from mutual customers.

    Again, I'm not advocating resurrecting bbos unless it can prove $$ feasibility. Only that if some affordable way can be found to retain those customers, they'll also retain some relevance with carriers while transforming their current customer base into "sales force multipliers".

    Just my "flawed" opinion.
    Bbnivende likes this.
    03-19-16 09:44 AM
  5. idssteve's Avatar
    I think the app gap will have the same affect on both BBOS or BB10

    Posted via CB10
    What so many are missing is that SOME of us couldn't possibly care less about apps. Obviously a minority in iOS sized reality but not necessarily insignificant in BBOS sized reality. The current 12M BBOS userbase are still using BBOS despite app gap.
    Frehley likes this.
    03-19-16 09:53 AM
  6. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Well, since we're really only creating "virtual" solutions to a "virtual" problem, my logic wasn't intended to be flawless. My virtual logic is still evolving. Is yours?

    From my perspective, your market logic is wrong. Carriers providing BIS to current customers aren't doing so out of any kindness for BB itself. They're doing so to keep their current customers happy. (what a novel concept!! Lol)

    That "presence" might be leveraged to command credibility with carriers thru popular demand from mutual customers.

    Again, I'm not advocating resurrecting bbos unless it can prove $$ feasibility. Only that if some affordable way can be found to retain those customers, they'll also retain some relevance with carriers while transforming their current customer base into "sales force multipliers".

    Just my "flawed" opinion.
    Since every remaining BBOS user is basically pure service fee profit for BlackBerry, I don't see how it cannot be feasible by adding more revenue if new devices were made.

    While everybody blamed the carriers for "not liking BIS" 5 years later it's actually the carriers that are keeping BIS alive despite BB trying to kill it.
    03-19-16 09:58 AM
  7. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The trouble is that BlackBerry is not really after the low end consumer market. They want to sell to consumers the type of phone that business and enterprise will purchase. Notwithstanding that the Manchester police purchased 6,000 Leaps, I do not foresee this trend continuing. Ultimately, BlackBerry needs a fleet model all touch Android for business and enterprise.
    03-19-16 10:30 AM
  8. LSDBerry's Avatar
    There could still be a market for legacy devices. Case in point, Microsoft's Nokia feature phone division:

    https://forums.crackberry.com/e?link...token=VPEzTrzS
    03-19-16 10:42 AM
  9. idssteve's Avatar
    The trouble is that BlackBerry is not really after the low end consumer market. They want to sell to consumers the type of phone that business and enterprise will purchase. Notwithstanding that the Manchester police purchased 6,000 Leaps, I do not foresee this trend continuing. Ultimately, BlackBerry needs a fleet model all touch Android for business and enterprise.
    What BlackBerry might WANT to do is pretty irrelevant to most markets and/or ultimate survival. I agree that, as with entering any new market, they'll need to establish "Droid Creds" thru a high end Samsung stomping flagship product of some sort. Followed closely with an "everyman affordable" solution sitting right next to the "elitely priced" flagship in stores. A marketing strategy my relatively tiny companies routinely employ to great success. Leading into just about any new market with compromise solutions will simply invite derogatory derision throughout that market. Human nature.

    As an undergrad, I could never afford Shelby's Cobras. The fact that Ford demonstrated their credibility thru the Cobra made it "OK" to buy a Pinto.

    Of course well before we talk growth, we must talk survival. Until BB finds success in Droid, they may find that their BBOS loyal might provide temporary life support.

    Of course I get the feeling that some around here carry "do not resuscitate if rescuer carries BBOS..." cards. Lol.
    03-19-16 11:53 AM
  10. Bbnivende's Avatar
    My father had a Mustang II based on the Pinto. Definitely not OK.

    I think today your average consumer is looking for value. All things considered BlackBerry still can still provide a value phone. Even the Telus rep that I talked too noted that the PRIV was priced too high. BlackBerry would have to share resources with another manufacturer to compete at the flagship level. I would like an all touch at a Moto X price level.
    03-19-16 12:27 PM
  11. Jerry A's Avatar
    Well, since we're really only creating "virtual" solutions to a "virtual" problem, my logic wasn't intended to be flawless. My virtual logic is still evolving. Is yours?

    From my perspective, your market logic is wrong. Carriers providing BIS to current customers aren't doing so out of any kindness for BB itself. They're doing so to keep their current customers happy. (what a novel concept!! Lol)

    That "presence" might be leveraged to command credibility with carriers thru popular demand from mutual customers.

    Again, I'm not advocating resurrecting bbos unless it can prove $$ feasibility. Only that if some affordable way can be found to retain those customers, they'll also retain some relevance with carriers while transforming their current customer base into "sales force multipliers".

    Just my "flawed" opinion.
    At no point have you mentioned this is a virtual exercise. Seems like a convenient fallback when cornered by the limitations of your approach.

    Also, i haven't mentioned BIS (must be thinking of someone else). My point has always been around the fallacy of assuming all the existing BBOS users will jump to a new, legacy device (and keep on jumping - this business requires repeat customers who upgrade regularly).

    But if we're going to be virtual, why stick to a losing scenario? Let's discuss BB10 and how it was released 1.5 years earlier, had less bugs and was competitive enough to gain traction in the app and ecosystem space.
    03-19-16 12:34 PM
  12. Jerry A's Avatar
    What so many are missing is that SOME of us couldn't possibly care less about apps. Obviously a minority in iOS sized reality but not necessarily insignificant in BBOS sized reality. The current 12M BBOS userbase are still using BBOS despite app gap.
    How many of those 11M (consistency please) are using BBOS because the don't have a choice (ie work)? How many are using it because they're stick under a contract? How many plan on jumping ship as soon as they can?

    Truth may well be there aren't enough users like you to keep the platform going.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    03-19-16 12:41 PM
  13. Jerry A's Avatar
    Since every remaining BBOS user is basically pure service fee profit for BlackBerry, I don't see how it cannot be feasible by adding more revenue if new devices were made.

    While everybody blamed the carriers for "not liking BIS" 5 years later it's actually the carriers that are keeping BIS alive despite BB trying to kill it.
    That's another incorrect assumption. I manage a few 100 BlackBerrys that aren't paying any service fees (BIS or BES).

    Many American telecom companies are also paying $0 for BIS fees since they aren't collecting that from the users.

    Service revenue isn't just dropping due to less handsets. It dropping because there's negligible value-add (either to the consumer or the telecom companies). At least nothing worth paying extra fees.
    TgeekB likes this.
    03-19-16 12:45 PM
  14. Jerry A's Avatar
    There could still be a market for legacy devices. Case in point, Microsoft's Nokia feature phone division:

    https://forums.crackberry.com/e?link...token=y3bVwyBn
    This is a market in which BlackBerry has never played. Asha devices are $50 flip or candybar phones. Not smartphone and not running a smartphone OS.
    03-19-16 12:47 PM
  15. idssteve's Avatar
    At no point have you mentioned this is a virtual exercise. Seems like a convenient fallback when cornered by the limitations of your approach.

    Also, i haven't mentioned BIS (must be thinking of someone else). My point has always been around the fallacy of assuming all the existing BBOS users will jump to a new, legacy device (and keep on jumping - this business requires repeat customers who upgrade regularly).

    But if we're going to be virtual, why stick to a losing scenario? Let's discuss BB10 and how it was released 1.5 years earlier, had less bugs and was competitive enough to gain traction in the app and ecosystem space.
    How many times and how many different ways do I have to reiterate that resurrecting BBOS is unrealistic folly? This entire thread is devoted to a proposition that cannot be realistically implemented simply because the required talent cannot be realistically re-assembled. Unrealistic = virtual, IMO.

    12M existing users. 11M users projected to migrate elsewhere THIS year. "Virtual" numbers derived from other posts in this thread. I believe that 11M projection was based on last year's bbos decline. I, myself, suspect that continued decline might not be so linearly proportional.

    Please point out where I indicated in any way that ALL of existing userbase would migrate. ??? OR that legacy markets might provide everlasting opportunities? At issue is BB's survival. For the next few years. Once Android demonstrates overwhelming profit, it might THEN make sense to abandon legacy for good. Till then, the potential for aiding BB's survival shouldn't be surrendered without due consideration.

    I completely agree that BB10.3.2 NEEDed to intro a month after that stupid "obsolescence announcement" in Fall of 2011. On cue with announcement timing. Just too way off delivering on the announcement. Lol.

    Of course this wasn't the first time Dan Dodge's crew had over promised, under delivered while adding years to timing. Ask Gateway. Lol.

    Btw, you'd equated market presence with rotary phone legacy. I equated market presence with BIS. How long carriers provide the services depends on how well they value their existing markets. Something BB might learn a little about.
    Last edited by idssteve; 03-19-16 at 01:29 PM.
    03-19-16 01:16 PM
  16. idssteve's Avatar
    How many of those 11M (consistency please) are using BBOS because the don't have a choice (ie work)? How many are using it because they're stick under a contract? How many plan on jumping ship as soon as they can?

    Truth may well be there aren't enough users like you to keep the platform going.
    I can't answer your questions any more than you can. Truth is, NO one in possession of that data has spoken here. AFAIK. Truth may well be that there WERE enough users, like myself, to have kept the platform going. We'll never kno at this point.
    03-19-16 01:36 PM
  17. idssteve's Avatar
    My father had a Mustang II based on the Pinto. Definitely not OK.
    Lol. Those were hideous, IMO. Wound up with a 383 stroker SB Chevy powering mine. Rear tire life was abominable, tho. Lol.
    03-19-16 01:55 PM
  18. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    That's another incorrect assumption. I manage a few 100 BlackBerrys that aren't paying any service fees (BIS or BES).

    Many American telecom companies are also paying $0 for BIS fees since they aren't collecting that from the users.

    Service revenue isn't just dropping due to less handsets. It dropping because there's negligible value-add (either to the consumer or the telecom companies). At least nothing worth paying extra fees.
    Sorry to point out the obvious but non BIS/BES BBOS users don't actually count as active subscribers. They wouldn't be part of the said remaining 12M users.
    03-19-16 02:58 PM
  19. JeepBB's Avatar
    Sorry to point out the obvious but non BIS/BES BBOS users don't actually count as active subscribers. They wouldn't be part of the said remaining 12M users.
    Is that true?

    The BB10 'subscriber' numbers were known, and published by BB, despite not being on BIS or BES. BB used device activations IIRC and included those BB10 devices in the subscriber numbers despite there being no subscription. Wouldn't BBOS numbers be counted in the same way - as active devices?
    03-19-16 03:39 PM
  20. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Is that true?

    The BB10 'subscriber' numbers were known, and published by BB, despite not being on BIS or BES. BB used device activations IIRC and included those BB10 devices in the subscriber numbers despite there being no subscription. Wouldn't BBOS numbers be counted in the same way - as active devices?
    I don't remember BB ever reporting on BB10 "subscriber" numbers, but BB10 still connects to the NOC, just not in the same way BIS did.

    A BBOS device without BIS or BES is basically invisible to BB.
    03-19-16 04:04 PM
  21. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    Can BlackBerry count BB10 subscribers by BBID, which is email addresses when devices are activated? So, they could have a database count of Passport activitions, Q10s, Classics, etc.... even counting broken or lost phones that were once activated, maybe something like that...

    For BBOS, is it plausible that their servers see active devices by pin numbers, say like my 9780 being on wi-fi only, and able to connect to BBWorld?
    03-19-16 04:21 PM
  22. Jerry A's Avatar
    Sorry to point out the obvious but non BIS/BES BBOS users don't actually count as active subscribers. They wouldn't be part of the said remaining 12M users.
    Are you certain? Thought the number was based on number of BIS and BES users.

    Sorta like how they talk about 190M BBM users. That's not the number of active users, just the number of people who've ever installed the app.

    Paying and active user numbers may make the numbers look worse than BlackBerry would like.
    03-19-16 05:02 PM
  23. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Are you certain? Thought the number was based on number of BIS and BES users.

    Sorta like how they talk about 190M BBM users. That's not the number of active users, just the number of people who've ever installed the app.

    Paying and active user numbers may make the numbers look worse than BlackBerry would like.
    BBOS numbers were always reported as active subscribers, clue is in the name, active. BB know exactly how many legacy activations they have.

    Now I don't remember BB evert reporting on BB10 active subscribers, unless I missed it.
    03-19-16 05:10 PM
  24. Jerry A's Avatar
    I don't remember BB ever reporting on BB10 "subscriber" numbers, but BB10 still connects to the NOC, just not in the same way BIS did.

    A BBOS device without BIS or BES is basically invisible to BB.
    Go back and read what I read. These devices are using BIS and BES and BlackBerry isn't seeing any revenue.

    According to my telecom rep "if we're not charging you then we're not paying BlackBerry." So, nothing for the BIS access. The US telecoms don't charge for BIS on prepaid and corporate accounts - no value in paying an extra $10/mo for data connectivity compared to other accounts.

    When I posed the question to my cloud email provider (also my BES provider) they told me much of the same - BlackBerry provides their service so people don't walk away from their devices entirely. No revenue for them.

    My reps may be incorrect, but I have no reason to doubt them.
    03-19-16 05:24 PM
  25. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    Just before Christmas when I popped the Sim card from my iphone (with adapter) into my "new" 9900, Rogers sure KNEW that I switched back to using BIS because I got an email from Rogers that night about it. (I have a thread about this)

    You can bet they likely KNOW how many are using it

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    03-19-16 05:25 PM
910 ... 1819202122 ...

Similar Threads

  1. How do I sync my outlook contacts & calendar with the Blackberry Priv?
    By CrackBerry Question in forum BlackBerry Priv
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-28-16, 01:31 PM
  2. 4 months on Android, back to BlackBerry
    By dreamz_gaurav in forum General BlackBerry News, Discussion & Rumors
    Replies: 120
    Last Post: 03-24-16, 10:29 AM
  3. How Can I trust Blackberry?
    By Ekrem Gurdal in forum BlackBerry Priv
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 03-05-16, 10:09 PM
  4. BlackBerry launches new direct sales program for business owners and IT administrators
    By CrackBerry News in forum CrackBerry.com News Discussion & Contests
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-02-16, 11:40 AM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-02-16, 10:21 AM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD