07-19-16 08:50 PM
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  1. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    Ah, the dangers of automobile analogies...

    There is a significant difference between retro-styling (new guts under superficially similar appearance) and releasing legacy product again. The new VW Beetle has as much commonality with the old Herbie as chalk does to cheese.

    Was OP proposing to also update BBOS (at what cost, and how long would that take?) and put that gleaming triumph of 21st Century technology in a retro-styled BB9900 case? I didn't read it that way.

    OP was suggesting that BB release a new line of legacy phones, and that success might follow. I doubt that success would be the outcome, your mileage might differ.

    If the scenario is now that BB should update and develop BBOS and release not "legacy", but "retro-styled" phones, then that prefixes "expensive" to "failure".

    Off-topic, but to continue the suspect Beetle analogy, I wonder if a re-released Herbie would even be allowed to be sold given the safety and emissions standards of today?
    technically Herbie was re-released, as there is a "53" for the hood sticker and stripes as well These were RE-released with all the new safety and that is what I am saying.....I do not think they would bring out a "NEW" 9900 with the same guts as in 2011. Much like the new Herbie, it would be souped up to run with the big boys.

    The Retro styling DOES sell as we have proven, but yes, they certainly would have to update the "guts" despite the fact many still buy the older devices.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    03-12-16 04:20 PM
  2. bobshine's Avatar
    So if you had a business with 11M customers left you'd just do nothing to keep them on your books?
    not if serving those 11M customer is non profitable.

    When digital cameras came out, Kodak was still selling films to hundreds of millions of loyal customers. Look what happened to Kodak now.... cause they didn't moved on.

    The situation is similar to BlackBerry. If you understand a bit how it is to run a business... you'll realise that it's suicidal to re-issue legacy devices.

    Posted via CB10
    rthonpm, JeepBB and Ronindan like this.
    03-12-16 04:44 PM
  3. bobshine's Avatar
    thats sure funny, especially since my earpiece speaker blew 2 weeks ago and I took it to an electronics place and parts are NO problem for it. Someone needs to check ebay and amazon, all they stock is parts

    There are entire buisnesses that make a living fixing Legacy devices, so it is also good for the economy also, ie. jobs, private enterprise....alas, nvm.


    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    Wake up man! Fixing a device is not profitable for BlackBerry! LOL

    Put yourself in BlackBerry shoes and try to find the processor that would go into the 9900... then tell me what happens!

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-16 04:47 PM
  4. anon(9721108)'s Avatar

    Put yourself in BlackBerry shoes and try to find the processor that would go into the 9900... then tell me what happens!

    Posted via CB10
    Isn't technology gearing towards "minnaturization?" Example, the Apple Watch. I'm thinking if Apple can put the power of a Cell phone into a 2 inch device, then it should be possible for Blackberry to have much more updated and modern software into a 9900 styled device.....IF they wanted to.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    Frehley likes this.
    03-12-16 04:53 PM
  5. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    not if serving those 11M customer is non profitable.

    When digital cameras came out, Kodak was still selling films to hundreds of millions of loyal customers. Look what happened to Kodak now.... cause they didn't moved on.

    The situation is similar to BlackBerry. If you understand a bit how it is to run a business... you'll realise that it's suicidal to re-issue legacy devices.

    Posted via CB10
    But keeping them is pure BIS profit and btw, did you watch the new Star Wars movie? Guess what, shot on Kodak film, not digital.

    And so are a lot of movies and even TV shows, like Breaking Bad or the Walking Dead.

    On Kodak film.

    Even all digital films are burned to film for archival purposes, turns out Digital Archival needs constant migration and costs a ton of money every year.
    03-12-16 04:55 PM
  6. idssteve's Avatar
    Nobody is stopping anyone from using BBOS or BB10 phones. Nobody is stopping anyone from buying a "new" BBOS or BB10 phone.

    The exam question was whether BB should release a genuinely new range of BBOS phones, and whether those phones would restore BB's fortunes.

    My (polite) answer is that such a move would be commercially inept of BB and would not lead to increased sales.

    I could give other answers, but they would involve laughter that anyone could believe that reintroducing legacy phones is a serious business strategy, and probably a bit of sadly disappointed head-shaking.

    In other news, Ford re-introduces the Model-T citing how immensely successful it was the first time around. "Motorists want simplicity", said a Ford spokesman, "we expect this to sell big!"

    Going backwards, in any activity but especially in a technology-based field, is unlikely to be a winning strategy.
    Well, if Ford were nearly closing their doors while 11M existing customers were still driving Ts and projected to move into Toyota by year's end I might consider it "commercially inept" if they didn't at least consider authorizing a two minute "sanity check" discussion of the concept. Laughter might be considered inappropriate when dedicated employees are facing layoffs, in my circles at least. Likely a waste of two minutes but easier to look ourselves in the face, the rest of our days.

    "Going backward" is precisely what BB10.0's premature birth did, IMO. Too much missing. You're right, wasn't exactly "a winning strategy". Lol.

    Like myself and others keep saying, too many of RIM's staff have moved on to realistically entertain resurrecting BBOS. It's possible we might find their "modern" version a horrific Frankenstein. Lol.

    As an alternative, if Chen managed to get some RIM devs in the same room with their android folks, we might, possibly, get a result that might, possibly, include some "no brainer" legacy functionality that might, possibly, attract some legacy users?? Given what they had to work with, BBOS devs really deserve more respect for their accomplishments. IMO.
    03-12-16 06:58 PM
  7. bobshine's Avatar
    But keeping them is pure BIS profit and btw, did you watch the new Star Wars movie? Guess what, shot on Kodak film, not digital.

    And so are a lot of movies and even TV shows, like Breaking Bad or the Walking Dead.

    On Kodak film.

    Even all digital films are burned to film for archival purposes, turns out Digital Archival needs constant migration and costs a ton of money every year.
    No, it's not pure profit! Maintaining BIS means you have to do security updates, you have to also maintain the servers and change them, you also need to maintain a relationship with carriers and make sure they still provide BIS plans (which most don't anymore).

    Also the chipset will have to be updated cause carriers are constantly developing newer networks... which would mean that BlackBerry would have to update an OS that probably has reached it limit. It probably can't handle multi core CPU or a 64 bit architecture.

    And yes films are still used... like BBOS devices. But why is Kodak on the verge of bankruptcy then???

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-16 09:04 PM
  8. Jerry A's Avatar
    But keeping them is pure BIS profit and btw, did you watch the new Star Wars movie? Guess what, shot on Kodak film, not digital.

    And so are a lot of movies and even TV shows, like Breaking Bad or the Walking Dead.

    On Kodak film.

    Even all digital films are burned to film for archival purposes, turns out Digital Archival needs constant migration and costs a ton of money every year.
    Kodak's movie film business isn't the same as Kodak's consumer film business. The success of one doesn't mean anything to the other.

    In BlackBerry terms, the MDM software business is like the movie film business - small market, small corporate footprint, decent margins & still around.

    BlackBerry's handset business is pretty parallel to Kodak's consumer film business. Both were slow to adapt to the changing world. Both continued to staff and operate like it was still their golden age - draining company resources. Both were incredible money pits that broke their companies.

    Kodak had to do a bankruptcy sell-off. BlackBerry was saved from that fate by Prem and given a chance to right the ship.
    JeepBB, rthonpm and web99 like this.
    03-12-16 09:36 PM
  9. terminatorx's Avatar
    No, it's not pure profit! Maintaining BIS means you have to do security updates, you have to also maintain the servers and change them, you also need to maintain a relationship with carriers and make sure they still provide BIS plans (which most don't anymore).

    Also the chipset will have to be updated cause carriers are constantly developing newer networks... which would mean that BlackBerry would have to update an OS that probably has reached it limit. It probably can't handle multi core CPU or a 64 bit architecture.

    And yes films are still used... like BBOS devices. But why is Kodak on the verge of bankruptcy then???

    Posted via CB10
    I notice you often speak in a strong matter of fact way making absolute statements. Just curious, did you used to work at RIM and from where do you get some of your info?

    For example, stating that most carriers no longer carry BIS plans. Which carriers are you referring to? I think I recall from one of your posts that you are based in Canada. You do realize that most all of our Canadian carriers offer BIS, right? That includes Telus, Bell and Rogers. Wind and mobilicity offer them as well.

    Nobody in favor of releasing a legacy device is advocating that BBOS supercede business on other fronts like Priv or BB10. It's not about the company shifting gears in favor of full on BBOS revival. We're just talking about a refresh of a single device, which so happens was one of the best selling and most successful devices for RIM ever. It should be looked at as a niche device targeted to a significant BlackBerry customer/market base. The idea isn't intended to make a statement about or derail other devices or avenues of business. I'm sure a carefully crafted approach could co-exist with the existing line of products.
    03-12-16 10:30 PM
  10. bobshine's Avatar
    I notice you often speak in a strong matter of fact way making absolute statements. Just curious, did you used to work at RIM and from where do you get some of your info?

    For example, stating that most carriers no longer carry BIS plans. Which carriers are you referring to? I think I recall from one of your posts that you are based in Canada. You do realize that most all of our Canadian carriers offer BIS, right? That includes Telus, Bell and Rogers. Wind and mobilicity offer them as well.

    Nobody in favor of releasing a legacy device is advocating that BBOS supercede business on other fronts like Priv or BB10. It's not about the company shifting gears in favor of full on BBOS revival. We're just talking about a refresh of a single device, which so happens was one of the best selling and most successful devices for RIM ever. It should be looked at as a niche device targeted to a significant BlackBerry customer/market base. The idea isn't intended to make a statement about or derail other devices or avenues of business. I'm sure a carefully crafted approach could co-exist with the existing line of products.
    Look at the Canadian carriers websites. BIS plans are gone. Nowhere to be found. Carrier has no incentive to offer them cause they have to share the margins with BlackBerry.

    Maintaining support for legacy device is a luxury they don't have. It require cash, lots of resource and human capital.

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-12-16 10:51 PM
  11. ravencore's Avatar
    Someone delete this ridiculous thread. BB7 is old and outdated. Useless platform that had no apps. BB10 replaced it. BB10 is the best mobile OS in the world. Asking BlackBerry to bring back legecy devices and OS would put the company out of business.
    I don't necessarily personally agree with the OP that I want BB7 devices but I find it strange that your so dismissive that you want a thread deleted while being a bb10 supporter .
    You don't see any parallels to the other threads by certain trolls telling users that bb10 is a dead OS and you need to move on?
    Well I guess you fit in at least.
    Frehley likes this.
    03-12-16 11:13 PM
  12. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Look at the Canadian carriers websites. BIS plans are gone. Nowhere to be found. Carrier has no incentive to offer them cause they have to share the margins with BlackBerry.

    Maintaining support for legacy device is a luxury they don't have. It require cash, lots of resource and human capital.

    Posted via CB10
    The many Curve, Bold and Torch users in Canada might disagree. BIS will remain as long as the big accounts have old devices in their fleet. Another year anyway.
    03-13-16 12:05 AM
  13. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Look at the Canadian carriers websites. BIS plans are gone. Nowhere to be found. Carrier has no incentive to offer them cause they have to share the margins with BlackBerry.

    Maintaining support for legacy device is a luxury they don't have. It require cash, lots of resource and human capital.

    Posted via CB10
    You probably won't find the BIS plans on the front page but they're still there.

    Vodafone UK even sells refurbished Curves. Or "nearly new" as they call them.

    And they sell them on 2 years contracts. So yes, they're committed to BIS.
    03-13-16 01:38 AM
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Kodak's movie film business isn't the same as Kodak's consumer film business. The success of one doesn't mean anything to the other.

    In BlackBerry terms, the MDM software business is like the movie film business - small market, small corporate footprint, decent margins & still around.

    BlackBerry's handset business is pretty parallel to Kodak's consumer film business. Both were slow to adapt to the changing world. Both continued to staff and operate like it was still their golden age - draining company resources. Both were incredible money pits that broke their companies.

    Kodak had to do a bankruptcy sell-off. BlackBerry was saved from that fate by Prem and given a chance to right the ship.
    It is the same now, they emerged as Kodak Alaris out of bankruptcy and thanks to a couple of big successful movies they're back in profit.

    My point was also that a very old technology is suddenly not so old anymore and it made a comeback.

    Kodak are even bringing back new Super 8 movie cameras, aimed at film students
    03-13-16 01:43 AM
  15. Sigurbergur's Avatar
    To be honest, I would love to carry one of my BBOS devices daily rather than my iPhone, Z10 or Classic.

    BIS is no longer available here in Iceland, but if any of my old legacy Berries would somehow work well without it, I'd still be using them.

    Posted via CB10
    03-13-16 04:02 AM
  16. JeepBB's Avatar
    I actually agree with much of your post FWIW, but my response below could probably be summarised as "It's too late!".

    Well, if Ford were nearly closing their doors while 11M existing customers were still driving Ts and projected to move into Toyota by year's end I might consider it "commercially inept" if they didn't at least consider authorizing a two minute "sanity check" discussion of the concept. Laughter might be considered inappropriate when dedicated employees are facing layoffs, in my circles at least. Likely a waste of two minutes but easier to look ourselves in the face, the rest of our days.
    BB had this discussion. They called the resulting product, the "Classic". It didn't work.

    Having been made redundant twice in my career, I know how painful an experience it can be, so laughing at them would certainly be inappropriate. However, a corporate plan that involves the re-introduction of obsolete technology as your response to falling sales and market share demonstrates a complete lack of respect to those loyal employees who frankly deserved a more switched-on management team. I sincerely hope that those people who have moved on, now work for a company more deserving of their efforts and loyalty.

    "Going backward" is precisely what BB10.0's premature birth did, IMO. Too much missing. You're right, wasn't exactly "a winning strategy". Lol.
    As I have previously posted, BB10.0 was dreadful! It was released because Thor couldn't delay any longer. Quite rightly IMHO, BBOS users refused to have anything to do with such an incomplete, buggy, randomly restarting mess which was so obviously a significant downgrade to the feature-set they were using on their BBOS phones that it brought tears to the eyes just to watch.

    Like myself and others keep saying, too many of RIM's staff have moved on to realistically entertain resurrecting BBOS. It's possible we might find their "modern" version a horrific Frankenstein. Lol.
    Yes, even if BB had the will to "re-imagine" BBOS, I doubt there is anyone left in BB who could do the work, even if BB management could be persuaded to spend the money. As is clear from BB putting BB10 into maintenance mode, they don't even have the will to continue with BB10. Maintaining/enhancing BBOS in a world where BB has abandoned the successor product line is clearly a pipedream.

    As an alternative, if Chen managed to get some RIM devs in the same room with their android folks, we might, possibly, get a result that might, possibly, include some "no brainer" legacy functionality that might, possibly, attract some legacy users?? Given what they had to work with, BBOS devs really deserve more respect for their accomplishments. IMO.
    I agree. In its day, BBOS was awesome!

    I have huge respect for their engineering skill and accomplishment.

    However, your final paragraph is a variant of a common theme here on CB. "Someone else should spend money/time, because it will benefit BlackBerry". Google are fine with Android as it now is. Android customers are fine with the feature-set of Android, or they wouldn't buy it in their billions. What advantage would Google gain from making Android look like BBOS?
    Last edited by JeepBB; 03-13-16 at 04:45 AM.
    idssteve and Jerry A like this.
    03-13-16 04:35 AM
  17. bobshine's Avatar
    You probably won't find the BIS plans on the front page but they're still there.

    Vodafone UK even sells refurbished Curves. Or "nearly new" as they call them.

    And they sell them on 2 years contracts. So yes, they're committed to BIS.
    Haha! Funny one ! Not advertising BIS plans on their website means that they are committed???

    I mean, I wish BlackBerry would succeed, but you need a reality check.



    Posted via CB10
    TgeekB likes this.
    03-13-16 08:47 AM
  18. Mamaluka's Avatar
    I'd settle for a legacy keyboard. Like the one from the 9900 BOLD. Why blackberry put that new keyboard on a device that was supposed to be released for those of us who loved the physical qwerty, is beyond me. Everyone has reviewed that priv keyboard as sub-par. What a shame. I guarantee, if the priv was made with a true BOLD keyboard, and immediately released on all carriers in the US, it would've sold better.
    Frehley likes this.
    03-13-16 10:05 AM
  19. Jerry A's Avatar
    It is the same now, they emerged as Kodak Alaris out of bankruptcy and thanks to a couple of big successful movies they're back in profit.

    My point was also that a very old technology is suddenly not so old anymore and it made a comeback.

    Kodak are even bringing back new Super 8 movie cameras, aimed at film students
    Once again, the film products are not in their consumer camera and film business. Movie film is a specialized industrial market with a specialized audience.

    The closest analogue is BlackBerry sticking to their enterprise audience with their enterprise products. However, unlike Kodak, BlackBerry faces stiff competition.

    As far as Super 8 goes, at this point it's only an announced product but nothing is actually shipping. No idea if this will be successful or not. No idea if it'll be huge or not.

    This isn't about old technology being bad. It's about old technology being relevant enough to be useful. Analog cameras, muscle cars, non-disposal razors are all relevant even if they're not mainstream. But they're all in a different class if product.

    I doubt we'll see people (and I mean niche market numbers, not even mass market) clamoring for the return of dial-up modems, luggable PCs or the VIC-20.
    JeepBB and TgeekB like this.
    03-13-16 10:26 AM
  20. JeepBB's Avatar

    I doubt we'll see people (and I mean niche market numbers, not even mass market) clamoring for the return of dial-up modems, luggable PCs or the VIC-20.
    Ahhhh, dial-up modems... I just had an audio flashback "Screeeeeeeeeeech...... screeeeeeeeeeeeeeech.... screeeeeeeeeeeeech. Bong, Bong" (before it mercifully went silent) on every connection attempt. My cat would jump into the air and be running before it hit the ground!

    No sireee, I don't want that experience back again! My cat certainly doesn't!

    As you say, just because old technology still works doesn't mean that anyone* wants it back!

    <* Before a multitude of "I want it, so that's a sweeping generalisation" replies start, the fact that five people you know still use a VIC-20 is statistically irrelevant. >
    Last edited by JeepBB; 03-13-16 at 11:35 AM.
    oldtimeBBaddict likes this.
    03-13-16 11:18 AM
  21. idssteve's Avatar
    Kodak film is a consumable commodity. Smartphones represent durable purchases. Apples & Oranges? Or more precisely, Apples & BlackBerry's... Lol. Kodak failed to EXPAND into digital. That didn't mean that they needed to shut down chemfilm production BEFORE their digital products killed it off in a natural death. The failure was in not getting ahead of the digital curve. In what way would shutting down chemfilm production, BEFORE their replacement digital product was ready to replace it, have saved Kodak? The problem wasn't chemfilm. The problem was lack of willingness to EXPAND product lines. Their chemfilm expertise still has immense value for the world. They'll need to learn how it fit into their niche and accept their smaller reality.
    They have, at least, preserved their core competency credibility. Credibility is the FIRST step of selling ANY future product or service.

    BB has wrecked their credibility in every way I can possibly conceive. With customers, carriers, media outlets, vendors, etc BIG heads needed to roll after the half baked sub beta Storm ever made it to consumer hands. They didn't. Instead, my recollection was, those heads got away with blaming BBOS and we then got a half baked sub beta, almost stillbirth, repeat with BB10.0 in Z/Q. Their marketshare slide then turned into freefall and BBOS, once again, got the blame.

    Throw in the stupidity of prematurely announcing bbos obsolescence before 10 even had a heartbeat, along with Storm, PlayBook & Z/Q fiasco and the surprise is that carriers themselves haven't shut down BIS. Clearly, carriers still providing BIS are serving demand from their customers. Minuscule as it's getting.

    Like any business, BB will not successfully market ANYthing before first re-establishing their credibility. Since carriers are still responsive to customers, restoring credibility with their existing customers is a good direction to start.

    Existing customers represent sales force multipliers. Especially in a niche market. When existing customers are happy, potential customers notice. When existing customers are disgruntled, potential customers notice.

    Right now, over half of BB's existing customers are BBOS. We can conjecture about why that is but BB MUST figure out why that is. They then need to find a way to re-establish credibility with those existing customers.

    Some will, no doubt, argue that it can't be done and it's a waste of resources. I argue that BB will not survive to ever regain profitable market presence, niche or otherwise, while leaving disgruntled customers, carriers, vendors, etc in their history. IMO. Fwiw.
    03-13-16 11:32 AM
  22. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Haha! Funny one ! Not advertising BIS plans on their website means that they are committed???

    I mean, I wish BlackBerry would succeed, but you need a reality check.



    Posted via CB10
    Look at it rationally. Vodafone UK are really going out of their way to supply refurbished Curves on 2 years contracts


    What part of that doesn't sound like commitment to BIS? They know they have a bunch of customers that prefer BBOS and they want to keep them instead of trying to force them on something else like Blackberry did.
    Frehley likes this.
    03-13-16 11:40 AM
  23. idssteve's Avatar
    Ahhhh, dial-up modems... I just had an audio flashback "Screeeeeeeeeeech...... screeeeeeeeeeeeeeech.... screeeeeeeeeeeeech. Bong, Bong" (before it mercifully went silent) on every connection attempt. My cat would jump into the air and be running before it hit the ground!

    No sireee, I don't want that experience back again! My cat certainly doesn't!

    As you say, just because old technology still works doesn't mean that anyone* wants it back!

    <* Before a multitude of "I want it, so that's a sweeping generalisation" replies start, the fact that five people you know still use a VIC-20 is statistically irrelevant. >
    There are still parts of the world where dial up is THE option. Maybe statistically irrelevant to your LTE reality but that doesn't mean there's no profit to be made in the niche reality. All a matter of innovative volume/demand/pricing/margin etc intersects.
    Frehley likes this.
    03-13-16 12:12 PM
  24. bobshine's Avatar
    Look at it rationally. Vodafone UK are really going out of their way to supply refurbished Curves on 2 years contracts


    What part of that doesn't sound like commitment to BIS? They know they have a bunch of customers that prefer BBOS and they want to keep them instead of trying to force them on something else like Blackberry did.
    There's a difference between commitment and retention.

    You can just remove a service from someone. That's just defensive retention

    Commitment is offering the service and be committed to talk and to offer it to new clients. When was the last time a carrier told you: BTW we have this brand new BBOS plan available. It now offers this and that?

    It's like saying that Sony is committed to Beta Max customers ... there is no profit to be made from beta max nor there is anything to be made from BBOS, beside the hard-core base.

    PS.: BTW they are forcing everyone to move away from BBOS plans. BBOS plans haven't been updated for years and they don't offer all the bells and whistles of the newer plans. Rogers and Telus don't offer BIS plans for BB10 as soon as BB10 launched. Bell used to offer BIS plans for BB10 devices and now they removed them.

    Posted via CB10
    03-13-16 03:20 PM
  25. Jerry A's Avatar
    There are still parts of the world where dial up is THE option. Maybe statistically irrelevant to your LTE reality but that doesn't mean there's no profit to be made in the niche reality. All a matter of innovative volume/demand/pricing/margin etc intersects.
    That's all true. But a company may decide that market is too small for them, their business plan, or their desired ROI.

    Companies are free to choose to not pivot into niche markets.
    03-13-16 05:35 PM
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