[corbintechboy]

I started with BB in 2009. Back then the problem was BB was not listening to customers and it is the same problem today.

BB has this huge problem with making people play the waiting game, the sad fact is people don't want to wait and people jump ship.

I think what they need to do to save themselves and release 2 devices a year (Apple). Don't invest huge amounts into R&D and instead use what works. Release a Passport with modern specs and release a classic with modern specs. Keep the looks the same and just update the internals. Jack around with Android as an extra, not the end all be all.

But the above is a common sense solution. BB does not use common sense solutions and they just make us wait.

BB will fail not because people don't like their products, instead because no one in control of the company knows how to run a business. That's my opinion.

[Bbnivende]

I started with BB in 2009. Back then the problem was BB was not listening to customers and it is the same problem today.

BB has this huge problem with making people play the waiting game, the sad fact is people don't want to wait and people jump ship.

I think what they need to do to save themselves and release 2 devices a year (Apple). Don't invest huge amounts into R&D and instead use what works. Release a Passport with modern specs and release a classic with modern specs. Keep the looks the same and just update the internals. Jack around with Android as an extra, not the end all be all.

But the above is a common sense solution. BB does not use common sense solutions and they just make us wait.

BB will fail not because people don't like their products, instead because no one in control of the company knows how to run a business. That's my opinion.

The square screen is a terrible format. To be ergonomic a narrower longer device is required. Most apps and media do not play well on a square screen. They need an all touch and the Vienna model for sure and perhaps the PRIV.

Posted via CB10

[TgeekB]

Bob, if you might provide the data set that's guiding your conclusions, it might help folks like me better understand those conclusions. I sometimes wonder if the two groups are talking about the same company & products, etc. Humans are SO capable of seeing the same thing SO differently. .

I would agree that OS 5 was woefully inadequate for the Storm. It happens to be my fave for non touch 9650, tho. (actually a hybrid) I guess I never really saw the Storm as a real BlackBerry. BBOS itself wasn't optimally suited for touch interface. 6 & 7 had their problems & shortfalls. The early 9900 suffered miserable reliability issues until later 7.1 releases but latest 7.1 releases are really pretty solid.

Are you saying BB would have been better off sticking with 4.7?? I don't understand your proposal?

BB was going to bleed some market share to Apple no matter WHAT they did. BB could NEVER match the resources Apple & Google brought to the table. Apple equipment in preschools may have provided at least some pre-indoctrination, for example.

Apple and Google both commanded respectable credibility in some of their respective core competences . The Storm damaged BB's credibility. In touch markets, at least. Credibility never recovered, IMO.

BB still builds THE best PKBs. A core competency that still might be leveraged to establish a niche "beach head". A tiny beach head of credibility from which to stage a possible turn around. BBOS UI is still best optimized for PKB, IMO.

BBOS needed replacement. It's not BBOS's fault that BB10 was, and demonstrably still is, an inadequate replacement.

The serious, serious mistakes, IMO, were the Storm, PlayBook and BB10.0.

If we could get that time travel option working in BB's calendar app, we could go back & get Z10 in place of storm. Z30 & Classic on 10.3.2 in 2010.
THAT scenario had a chance against Apple.

Of course given latest BB10 calendar app, we might wind up in the wrong month... Lol

Oh to dream... Lol.

When people speak about Blackberry building a niche of pkb devices, I have no issue with that as long as it's profitable. Heck, even a BBOS based device is fine, if it's profitable. I'm not sure it is, not my expertise, but why not try? Can't be worse that what they're doing now.

[bobshine]

When people speak about Blackberry building a niche of pkb devices, I have no issue with that as long as it's profitable. Heck, even a BBOS based device is fine, if it's profitable. I'm not sure it is, not my expertise, but why not try? Can't be worse that what they're doing now.

Yes it can be worse! Especially if they bring BBOS devices back.

First the OS can't handle modern multicore CPU... with 64 bit architectures. So either they develop their own CPU... find a supplier that has a compatible CPU or revamp BBOS (not sure if it's possible)

Then it won't help with their image cause BBOS is associated with battery pull, houglasses... freezing

And don't forget the fact that there is zero developer support for BBOS now. Corporations needs CRM apps, ways to access their office from their device. Only way is BlackBerry develop them themselves, if possible on BBOS (considering the OS limits, I highly doubt it)

And there is zero carrier support for BBOS and BIS. As seen earlier... all the links to carrier website regarding BBOS hasn't been updated and still mentions @blackberry.net emails!

Posted via CB10

[belfastdispatcher]

Yes it can be worse! Especially if they bring BBOS devices back.

First the OS can't handle modern multicore CPU... with 64 bit architectures. So either they develop their own CPU... find a supplier that has a compatible CPU or revamp BBOS (not sure if it's possible)

Then it won't help with their image cause BBOS is associated with battery pull, houglasses... freezing

And don't forget the fact that there is zero developer support for BBOS now. Corporations needs CRM apps, ways to access their office from their device. Only way is BlackBerry develop them themselves, if possible on BBOS (considering the OS limits, I highly doubt it)

And there is zero carrier support for BBOS and BIS. As seen earlier... all the links to carrier website regarding BBOS hasn't been updated and still mentions @blackberry.net emails!

Posted via CB10

And all those are things that the current 11M BBOS users couldn't care less about.

However, they do care that they have nothing new to upgrade to.

[lubyl0rd1]

Should BlackBerry try to bring back the legacy devices running older OS and find a way to help all BlackBerry users move along by maybe keeping the support for all BlackBerry phones (Bold, BB10 phones, etc.) and introducing a new version of OS that runs on all devices?

I made this post mainly due to seeing how BlackBerry is dying and me hoping BlackBerry can turn things around and survive and also me missing the old Bold phones (perfect size and form factor.)

What do you think?

Posted via CB10

I don't think that Blackberry is dying because they just create an improvement by launching the PRIV(Android), they only have to let go their own OS RIM, or on the other hand open their store so that it could have all apps like Android. I'm talking about the firmware, the device should be upgraded too, be fast, TouchWiz etc...

[corbintechboy]

The square screen is a terrible format. To be ergonomic a narrower longer device is required. Most apps and media do not play well on a square screen. They need an all touch and the Vienna model for sure and perhaps the PRIV.

Posted via CB10

The square screen has sold for them. It is great for web and emails and social networking and such.

The idea is not to re-invent and experiment, we are beyond the point of risk. BB needs to stick to what works and if the form factor don't work for you, there are other options including the Priv. There is no need at this point to invest heavy in R&D, instead use what is tried and true.

[ezubeBB2013]

Don't agree, the market is swamped with narrow slabs. The Passport is unique and a great device. Excellent work device- there is no other phone that let's you read documents so easily. I don't think watching videos is a problem either with the screen ratio.

Posted via my BlackBerry Passport

[ezubeBB2013]

Oops my comment was supposed to be in response to ' Bbnivende'

Posted via my BlackBerry Passport

[GadgetTravel]

And all those are things that the current 11M BBOS users couldn't care less about.

However, they do care that they have nothing new to upgrade to.

They don't care that their carrier doesn't support BIS?

[Bbnivende]

The square screen has sold for them. It is great for web and emails and social networking and such.

The idea is not to re-invent and experiment, we are beyond the point of risk. BB needs to stick to what works and if the form factor don't work for you, there are other options including the Priv. There is no need at this point to invest heavy in R&D, instead use what is tried and true.

But neither the Classic and Passport are or have been selling well .

The market for an BlackBerry Android PKB phone is only so big. At this time it would appear that BlackBerry would not likely gain market share through multiple (non-slider) PKB models.

The sweet spot to maximize one model sales is a device about the same width as a Leap or Classic yet the Classic screen is too small. The sweet spot for device length is very close to the Leap as well.

A PKB device the same overall size as the Leap will have a screen size on the diagonal very close to the Passport but be much more acceptable in the market place.

[corbintechboy]

But neither the Classic and Passport are or have been selling well .

The market for an BlackBerry Android PKB phone is only so big. At this time it would appear that BlackBerry would not likely gain market share through multiple (non-slider) PKB models.

The sweet spot to maximize one model sales is a device about the same width as a Leap or Classic yet the Classic screen is too small. The sweet spot for device length is very close to the Leap as well.

A PKB device the same overall size as the Leap will have a screen size on the diagonal very close to the Passport but be much more acceptable in the market place.

The Passport has been selling. If it wasn't, the SE would have never came to be. There had to be a monetary motivation to create the SE after seeing the sales of the normal Passport.

BB don't have the resources to put into R&D. R&D costs money and there is no sense spending a ton of money on R&D when you have 2 current (lightly said) BB models that are selling. BB could update those devices to the newest in CPU and GPU power and there would be people lined up to buy the change.

What you are suggesting is an idea based on your wants. BB cannot afford the risk of catering to you.

[Bbnivende]

The Passport has been selling. If it wasn't, the SE would have never came to be. There had to be a monetary motivation to create the SE after seeing the sales of the normal Passport.

BB don't have the resources to put into R&D. R&D costs money and there is no sense spending a ton of money on R&D when you have 2 current (lightly said) BB models that are selling. BB could update those devices to the newest in CPU and GPU power and there would be people lined up to buy the change.

What you are suggesting is an idea based on your wants. BB cannot afford the risk of catering to you.

700,000 units including all all BB10 devices is not "selling well" .

Both the Classic and Passport have been failures and a switch to Android is not the answer for these poor designs. The square screen is a design killer.

[terminatorx]

And there is zero carrier support for BBOS and BIS.

What exactly are you smoking? You are clearly hallucinating and making stuff up now.

[corbintechboy]

700,000 units including all all BB10 devices is not "selling well" .

Both the Classic and Passport have been failures and a switch to Android is not the answer for these poor designs. The square screen is a design killer.

Again, as I said, they warranted creating the Passport SE and that come because of sales. It does not take a rocket scientist to come to that conclusion.

BB has always created square devices and to say it was a failure to do so is saying the company was a failure from the start and it wasn't. The problem is BB has always been a dollar short and a minute late. Apple beat them and so did Android and this is because BB thought they had a indestructible business model and they learned it was not true and people were willing to jump ship.

BB10 does not have to be a failure, there are people buying the product. As I am saying over and over, R&D is expensive and going back to the drawing table costs money the company does not have. So what they sold 700K in units, the R&D is already spent so developing on a current platform is all profit.

So we either lay down and roll over and say it is over or we use what is working right now.

[Bbnivende]

Again, as I said, they warranted creating the Passport SE and that come because of sales. It does not take a rocket scientist to come to that conclusion.

BB has always created square devices and to say it was a failure to do so is saying the company was a failure from the start and it wasn't. The problem is BB has always been a dollar short and a minute late. Apple beat them and so did Android and this is because BB thought they had a indestructible business model and they learned it was not true and people were willing to jump ship.

BB10 does not have to be a failure, there are people buying the product. As I am saying over and over, R&D is expensive and going back to the drawing table costs money the company does not have. So what they sold 700K in units, the R&D is already spent so developing on a current platform is all profit.

So we either lay down and roll over and say it is over or we use what is working right now.

The Passport SE is just a cosmetic change. Telus and Rogers do not seem to be stocking the Passport anymore.

Great phones like the 9900 or 9000 etc did not have a square screen. I think the rationale was to encourage BB10 native apps starting with the Q10.

As others have said, I am also in favour of whatever sells well enough to generate a profit. In the case of PKB only phones that would be a device with a 4.4 inch screen but no wider than a Classic. I agree this is not rocket science.

[belfastdispatcher]

They don't care that their carrier doesn't support BIS?

Most carriers not only still support BIS but they still sell 2 year BIS contracts.

[idssteve]

They don't care that their carrier doesn't support BIS?

How are those current 11M BBOS users using BBOS if their carriers aren't currently supporting BIS?

[Pardon]

Well do you think Ford go back to making the model T. No you keep moving forward

[bobshine]

And all those are things that the current 11M BBOS users couldn't care less about.

However, they do care that they have nothing new to upgrade to.

Wow so you spoke to the 11M users?

Let say you are right for the moment.... you really think BlackBerry can survive by selling 2M BBOS device per year? (and I am generous here)

Posted via CB10

[bobshine]

Most carriers not only still support BIS but they still sell 2 year BIS contracts.

You need a reality check!

Most carriers are phasing out BIS! If you don't wake up... one day you will receive a letter from your carrier saying that BIS service will no longer be offered and you'll have no clue how it happened!

Having a Web page with no pricing and information that hasn't been updated since 2010 on the carriers website about BIS isn't called "support BIS" for me!

Posted via CB10

[belfastdispatcher]

You need a reality check!

Most carriers are phasing out BIS! If you don't wake up... one day you will receive a letter from your carrier saying that BIS service will no longer be offered and you'll have no clue how it happened!

Having a Web page with no pricing and information that hasn't been updated since 2010 on the carriers website about BIS isn't called "support BIS" for me!

Posted via CB10

How's this for support?

[belfastdispatcher]

Well do you think Ford go back to making the model T. No you keep moving forward

Gotta love the Ford Model T analogy while we forget Ford has been making the same Fiestas, Mondeos, Transits for some 30 years with basically incremental cosmetic improvements.

[belfastdispatcher]

Wow so you spoke to the 11M users?

Let say you are right for the moment.... you really think BlackBerry can survive by selling 2M BBOS device per year? (and I am generous here)

Posted via CB10

I have the probably typical BBOS users beside me now, my wife has been using a 9790 for some 4 years, she can go for days on one battery charge, 3-4 months without a battery pull, she doesn't like change (been using BBOS for at least 8 years) and she has no new device to upgrade to. She could well afford an iPhone but she doesn't like them.

She's a guaranteed BB customer but BlackBerry doesn't want her apparently.

[idssteve]

Wow so you spoke to the 11M users?

Let say you are right for the moment.... you really think BlackBerry can survive by selling 2M BBOS device per year? (and I am generous here)

Posted via CB10

Who has spoken with these folks? BB? That should've been job one (Ford again? Lol) for Chen. Maybe it was? Anyone here ever hear?

BB will not survive on 2M/yr of ANYthing. They're obviously suffering gross margin losses at 3M/yr of BB10 devices. Does anyone realistically expect 10M Privs this year? Or even 5M?

2M/yr added to their other products might just be enough to get over whatever threshold they're struggling for. ??

Why is it "either/or"? Who's saying BB should've stopped production of everything else and ONLY sell BBOS? Why couldn't they have sold BB10 AND BBOS? At least until BB10 matured enough to truly bury bbos in the course of a NATURAL death. ??

BB consciously euthanized bbos, stranding multiple times those 11M we're still talking about. BB10 just wasn't near mature enough to possibly displace bbos until 10.3.1. Fall of 14. Basically three years after the last bbos device!!

As they've found, stranding current userbase is a poor path to expansion.