[belfastdispatcher]

The same goes for BBOS. Neither sold because neither has what the buying public wants - broad ecosystem and app support.

The pet features we're attached to are meaningless in the greater scheme of things.

Neither sold? BBOS went up to 90M. What do you think they made them the 4+ billion apparently they wasted on BB10

[Jerry A]

Neither sold? BBOS went up to 90M. What do you think they made them the 4+ billion apparently they wasted on BB10

Please don't be obtuse. Sales performance was on a downtrend well before the introduction of BB10.

BlackBerry needed to do something to change the flow. BBOS wasn't going to take them where the market repositioned itself. They swing for the bleachers and missed with BB10.

And supporting the features you wanted wasn't going to fix either of those scenarios.

[idssteve]

lol... Moody Blues "Days of future passed" started playing on the breakroom radio while I was reading comments in this link... seemed poignantly relevant. Go figure. The 9900 was barely out of diapers when this stroke of marketing genius doomed it to obsolete status. Wonder why BBOS sales started slipping?

BBX OS announced at DevCon 2011 today | CrackBerry.com

[oldtimeBBaddict]

Yep. That's why its called free market. Companies are also free to fail depending on their choices.

The US government would beg to differ

[belfastdispatcher]

Please don't be obtuse. Sales performance was on a downtrend well before the introduction of BB10.

BlackBerry needed to do something to change the flow. BBOS wasn't going to take them where the market repositioned itself. They swing for the bleachers and missed with BB10.

And supporting the features you wanted wasn't going to fix either of those scenarios.

Well listen to your own advice, sales might've been dropping but up the the announcement of BBX subscriber numbers were still growing and we all know that subscribers made BB a lot of money, still makes them money today without selling much devices.

[D.Vader]

Should BlackBerry try to bring back the legacy devices running older OS and find a way to help all BlackBerry users move along by maybe keeping the support for all BlackBerry phones (Bold, BB10 phones, etc.) and introducing a new version of OS that runs on all devices?

I made this post mainly due to seeing how BlackBerry is dying and me hoping BlackBerry can turn things around and survive and also me missing the old Bold phones (perfect size and form factor.)

What do you think?

Posted via CB10

Why do you think BlackBerry is dying? They do not have the market share they used to have, they likely will never recapture that. They are making changes to remain competitive. Perhaps you didn't hear about the Android BlackBerry called the Priv?

You do have a great point about the form factor of their older phones. I think BlackBerry is missing an opportunity to bring them back. At this point the 6" and 7" are about as big as you can get and still call it "pocket sized". BlackBerry should experiment with some of their older designs but modernize them for today's users.

[bobshine]

Again remember guys that BBOS is the reason why BlackBerry is the main reason why BlackBerry is where it is today. Starting BBOS 5.0, they started losing markets. 6.0 put them deeper into trouble, and 7.0 was a serious, serious mistake.

History had showed that starting 5.0, no improvement helped BlackBerry retain it customers. Now how can bringing BBOS back a good idea???

Posted via CB10

[Bbnivende]

Again remember guys that BBOS is the reason why BlackBerry is the main reason why BlackBerry is where it is today. Starting BBOS 5.0, they started losing markets. 6.0 put them deeper into trouble, and 7.0 was a serious, serious mistake.

History had showed that starting 5.0, no improvement helped BlackBerry retain it customers. Now how can bringing BBOS back a good idea???

Posted via CB10

I would suggest that the downfall of BlackBerry BBOS devices has more to do with the rising popularity of the iPhone and Android and the falling popularity of physical keyboards.

[idssteve]

Again remember guys that BBOS is the reason why BlackBerry is the main reason why BlackBerry is where it is today. Starting BBOS 5.0, they started losing markets. 6.0 put them deeper into trouble, and 7.0 was a serious, serious mistake.

History had showed that starting 5.0, no improvement helped BlackBerry retain it customers. Now how can bringing BBOS back a good idea???

Posted via CB10

Bob, if you might provide the data set that's guiding your conclusions, it might help folks like me better understand those conclusions. I sometimes wonder if the two groups are talking about the same company & products, etc. Humans are SO capable of seeing the same thing SO differently. .

I would agree that OS 5 was woefully inadequate for the Storm. It happens to be my fave for non touch 9650, tho. (actually a hybrid) I guess I never really saw the Storm as a real BlackBerry. BBOS itself wasn't optimally suited for touch interface. 6 & 7 had their problems & shortfalls. The early 9900 suffered miserable reliability issues until later 7.1 releases but latest 7.1 releases are really pretty solid.

Are you saying BB would have been better off sticking with 4.7?? I don't understand your proposal?

BB was going to bleed some market share to Apple no matter WHAT they did. BB could NEVER match the resources Apple & Google brought to the table. Apple equipment in preschools may have provided at least some pre-indoctrination, for example.

Apple and Google both commanded respectable credibility in some of their respective core competences . The Storm damaged BB's credibility. In touch markets, at least. Credibility never recovered, IMO.

BB still builds THE best PKBs. A core competency that still might be leveraged to establish a niche "beach head". A tiny beach head of credibility from which to stage a possible turn around. BBOS UI is still best optimized for PKB, IMO.

BBOS needed replacement. It's not BBOS's fault that BB10 was, and demonstrably still is, an inadequate replacement.

The serious, serious mistakes, IMO, were the Storm, PlayBook and BB10.0.

If we could get that time travel option working in BB's calendar app, we could go back & get Z10 in place of storm. Z30 & Classic on 10.3.2 in 2010.
THAT scenario had a chance against Apple.

Of course given latest BB10 calendar app, we might wind up in the wrong month... Lol

Oh to dream... Lol.

[Thanh123]

blackberry may not be able to make a comeback unless it have some innovative idea. it is the era of technology.

[Bbnivende]

Bob, if you might provide the data set that's guiding your conclusions, it might help folks like me better understand those conclusions. I sometimes wonder if the two groups are talking about the same company & products, etc. Humans are SO capable of seeing the same thing SO differently. .

I would agree that OS 5 was woefully inadequate for the Storm. It happens to be my fave for non touch 9650, tho. (actually a hybrid) I guess I never really saw the Storm as a real BlackBerry. BBOS itself wasn't optimally suited for touch interface. 6 & 7 had their problems & shortfalls. The early 9900 suffered miserable reliability issues until later 7.1 releases but latest 7.1 releases are really pretty solid.

Are you saying BB would have been better off sticking with 4.7?? I don't understand your proposal?

BB was going to bleed some market share to Apple no matter WHAT they did. BB could NEVER match the resources Apple & Google brought to the table. Apple equipment in preschools may have provided at least some pre-indoctrination, for example.

Apple and Google both commanded respectable credibility in some of their respective core competences . The Storm damaged BB's credibility. In touch markets, at least. Credibility never recovered, IMO.

BB still builds THE best PKBs. A core competency that still might be leveraged to establish a niche "beach head". A tiny beach head of credibility from which to stage a possible turn around. BBOS UI is still best optimized for PKB, IMO.

BBOS needed replacement. It's not BBOS's fault that BB10 was, and demonstrably still is, an inadequate replacement.

The serious, serious mistakes, IMO, were the Storm, PlayBook and BB10.0.

If we could get that time travel option working in BB's calendar app, we could go back & get Z10 in place of storm. Z30 & Classic on 10.3.2 in 2010.
THAT scenario had a chance against Apple.

Of course given latest BB10 calendar app, we might wind up in the wrong month... Lol

Oh to dream... Lol.

Or you could buy a good condition 9900 for $60. Your typical current 9900 is not a power user fan extraordinaire. They send emails and texts and do a bit of browsing. They just want a simple phone with no bells or whistles. Yes they could sell a new BBOS phones but the 9900 is the best that BBOS will ever be.

Posted via CB10

[belfastdispatcher]

Or you could buy a good condition 9900 for $60. Your typical current 9900 is not a power user fan extraordinaire. They send emails and texts and do a bit of browsing. They just want a simple phone with no bells or whistles. Yes they could sell a new BBOS phones but the 9900 is the best that BBOS will ever be.

Posted via CB10

Simple phones? I remember using a turn by turn sat nav app on my 9900 while broadcasting wifi to an iphone and bridged to a playbook used by a passenger and streaming radion, all at the same time on a drive from Belfast to Galway.

That in itself was a huge jump from the Bold 9700 so what makes you think that was as good as it was going to get?

[idssteve]

Or you could buy a good condition 9900 for $60. Your typical current 9900 is not a power user fan extraordinaire. They send emails and texts and do a bit of browsing. They just want a simple phone with no bells or whistles. Yes they could sell a new BBOS phones but the 9900 is the best that BBOS will ever be.

Posted via CB10

Well, actually notification "bells & whistles" and VERY customizable notification LED (thanks to a favorite app) are one of the 9900's assets.

You're right tho, Satan will need snow shoes before BBRY could reassemble the long gone RIM talent needed to resurrect bbos. A shame to lose that PKB/Toolbelt friendly feature set and UI, IMO.

[Frehley]

I'd settle for a legacy keyboard. Like the one from the 9900 BOLD. Why blackberry put that new keyboard on a device that was supposed to be released for those of us who loved the physical qwerty, is beyond me. Everyone has reviewed that priv keyboard as sub-par. What a shame. I guarantee, if the priv was made with a true BOLD keyboard, and immediately released on all carriers in the US, it would've sold better.

+1

[idssteve]

+1

PKB is still one of the few things BB is best at. Haven't tried a Priv but surely BB lknows better than to risk their PKB credibility on a substandard keyboard. Surely. ... ??

[Bbnivende]

The keys would appear to be a little wider but shorter than the Bold keyboard.

http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...rison-1055646/

I think the keyboard looks cramped because the phone is so large.

From a review :

"The 4-row BlackBerry QWERTY keyboard is a powerful productivity tool. It works great, plus the added touch functionality with gestures really enables using the phone without touching the screen, almost like a touchpad. The keyboard is, however, a bit too small and a bit more crammed with less key travel than most other BlackBerry phones."

Hard to say. Perhaps a Trackpad / home key combo with a bold style keyboard would have been better. After all, who is buying a PRIV ? By in large current BlackBerry owners.

I think the bottom line is that the Vienna will likely have a better keyboard and more appeal to current Classic-Passport-9900 owners.
I suspect though that the Trackpad will not reappear. Too bad because I liked my 9900 back lit trackpad and its multi- purpose. A track pad / home key / finger scanner would be a great feature.

Think of the PRIV as having the best slider PKB.

[bobshine]

I would suggest that the downfall of BlackBerry BBOS devices has more to do with the rising popularity of the iPhone and Android and the falling popularity of physical keyboards.

Isn't that exactly the same as saying that BBOS was the reason of BlackBerry downfall??? BBOS wasn't competitive enough to retain its customers. And BB10 came in too late... so no dev support.

Now imagine bringing BBOS today back from the dead and trying to gain back customers from iOS and Android! (BlackBerry can't be profitable with a userbase of 10M... which means selling less than 3M device per year... assuming everyone of them purchases a BlackBerry again).


Posted via CB10

[Bbnivende]

Isn't that exactly the same as saying that BBOS was the reason of BlackBerry downfall??? BBOS wasn't competitive enough to retain its customers. And BB10 came in too late... so no dev support.

Now imagine bringing BBOS today back from the dead and trying to gain back customers from iOS and Android! (BlackBerry can't be profitable with a userbase of 10M... which means selling less than 3M device per year... assuming everyone of them purchases a BlackBerry again).


Posted via CB10

The 9850 was over priced and under spec'd compared to the competition. Soon after the need for apps became paramount. I would say that BlackBerry neither had the hardware or software to compete in the consumer segment in 2011.

Posted via CB10

[idssteve]

Isn't that exactly the same as saying that BBOS was the reason of BlackBerry downfall??? BBOS wasn't competitive enough to retain its customers. And BB10 came in too late... so no dev support.

Now imagine bringing BBOS today back from the dead and trying to gain back customers from iOS and Android! (BlackBerry can't be profitable with a userbase of 10M... which means selling less than 3M device per year... assuming everyone of them purchases a BlackBerry again).


Posted via CB10

I can't imagine who suggested, or even dreamed, that "bringing BBOS back from the dead" would provide the remotest prayer of selling a single handset to a single existing Android or iOS user. Bringing BBOS back at all is nearly a practical impossibility, IMO.

For the sake of discussion, tho, the motive behind reserecting bbos would be in effort to retain the 12M existing bbos subscribers. By my understanding of numbers mentioned in this thread, that 12M combined with BB10's 9M adds up to 21M existing userbase. Surrendering those 11M existing bbos customers projected to leave is what gets you below your 10M userbase threshold. By these "in thread" sanity check #s.

Using your 30% per year replacement rate for the combined 21M bbos/BB10 userbase comes out to 7M per year. I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread that Chen needed 5M to stay in handsets? I'm unclear if Chen's 5M threshold was per device model? Or total all devices??

Now, let's arbitrarily set Priv sales at 3M new from Android and 10M total devices becomes an optimistic target. Probably unrealistic but getting to Chen's 5M/yr threshold seems worth talking about, to me. At least until "DroidBerry" gets rolling. Am I nuts?? (don't feel obligated to answer that lol)

Now, let's get back to reality... No real bbos. BUT, the Classic's BB10.3.2 is a barely tolerable facsimile. A few improvements to it and fit Classic guts into 9900 form factor and you just might sell some to existing bbos AND Classic users. Maybe.

Long run profitability is with droid at this point. BUT, breaking into a new market requires credibility. BB currently commands little to no credibility in just about anything. They need to establish credibility at SOMEthing before new markets of any kind will take them seriously. Even if it's selling blackberry pie... Lol. SOMEthing.

They still make the best pkb devices. Doesn't matter if NO one wants pkb, the fact that they are best at SOMEthing is what will lend credibility to public perception. Especially if 21M existing customers are happy customers. Happy or disgruntled, potential customers WILL notice. Happy is better.

This all assumes BB even has any fight left in its belly. They may be spent beyond hope, at this point. Nothing mentioned above is intended as actionable advice. Just ideas that might be worth talking about talking about.

[bobshine]

I can't imagine who suggested, or even dreamed, that "bringing BBOS back from the dead" would provide the remotest prayer of selling a single handset to a single existing Android or iOS user. Bringing BBOS back at all is nearly a practical impossibility, IMO.

For the sake of discussion, tho, the motive behind reserecting bbos would be in effort to retain the 12M existing bbos subscribers. By my understanding of numbers mentioned in this thread, that 12M combined with BB10's 9M adds up to 21M existing userbase. Surrendering those 11M existing bbos customers projected to leave is what gets you below your 10M userbase threshold. By these "in thread" sanity check #s.

Using your 30% per year replacement rate for the combined 21M bbos/BB10 userbase comes out to 7M per year. I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread that Chen needed 5M to stay in handsets? I'm unclear if Chen's 5M threshold was per device model? Or total all devices??

Now, let's arbitrarily set Priv sales at 3M new from Android and 10M total devices becomes an optimistic target. Probably unrealistic but getting to Chen's 5M/yr threshold seems worth talking about, to me. At least until "DroidBerry" gets rolling. Am I nuts?? (don't feel obligated to answer that lol)

Now, let's get back to reality... No real bbos. BUT, the Classic's BB10.3.2 is a barely tolerable facsimile. A few improvements to it and fit Classic guts into 9900 form factor and you just might sell some to existing bbos AND Classic users. Maybe.

Long run profitability is with droid at this point. BUT, breaking into a new market requires credibility. BB currently commands little to no credibility in just about anything. They need to establish credibility at SOMEthing before new markets of any kind will take them seriously. Even if it's selling blackberry pie... Lol. SOMEthing.

They still make the best pkb devices. Doesn't matter if NO one wants pkb, the fact that they are best at SOMEthing is what will lend credibility to public perception. Especially if 21M existing customers are happy customers. Happy or disgruntled, potential customers WILL notice. Happy is better.

This all assumes BB even has any fight left in its belly. They may be spent beyond hope, at this point. Nothing mentioned above is intended as actionable advice. Just ideas that might be worth talking about talking about.

If you read the thread... many suggest that resurrecting BBOS would save BlackBerry and help maintain the current userbase.

Chan stated that they need 10M devices per year in sales.

Posted via CB10

[opportunistic]

I think having them around allows them to let some of the other countries around the world have access to them. Some people don't care for the new OS or the all touch. But at the same time, it's nto really making them enough money.

[idssteve]

If you read the thread... many suggest that resurrecting BBOS would save BlackBerry and help maintain the current userbase.

Chan stated that they need 10M devices per year in sales.

Posted via CB10

Well, guess I missed the posts suggesting iOS users will buy BBOS. Lol. The whole thing is an academic exercise anyway since BBOS itself is pretty unresurrectable.

Point is, until Priv really catches on, finding a way (if even possible) to sell a few M/yr to current BB10 and BBOS userbase might help get total to 10M/yr.

[Bbnivende]

I can't imagine who suggested, or even dreamed, that "bringing BBOS back from the dead" would provide the remotest prayer of selling a single handset to a single existing Android or iOS user. Bringing BBOS back at all is nearly a practical impossibility, IMO.

For the sake of discussion, tho, the motive behind reserecting bbos would be in effort to retain the 12M existing bbos subscribers. By my understanding of numbers mentioned in this thread, that 12M combined with BB10's 9M adds up to 21M existing userbase. Surrendering those 11M existing bbos customers projected to leave is what gets you below your 10M userbase threshold. By these "in thread" sanity check #s.

Using your 30% per year replacement rate for the combined 21M bbos/BB10 userbase comes out to 7M per year. I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread that Chen needed 5M to stay in handsets? I'm unclear if Chen's 5M threshold was per device model? Or total all devices??

Now, let's arbitrarily set Priv sales at 3M new from Android and 10M total devices becomes an optimistic target. Probably unrealistic but getting to Chen's 5M/yr threshold seems worth talking about, to me. At least until "DroidBerry" gets rolling. Am I nuts?? (don't feel obligated to answer that lol)

Now, let's get back to reality... No real bbos. BUT, the Classic's BB10.3.2 is a barely tolerable facsimile. A few improvements to it and fit Classic guts into 9900 form factor and you just might sell some to existing bbos AND Classic users. Maybe.

Long run profitability is with droid at this point. BUT, breaking into a new market requires credibility. BB currently commands little to no credibility in just about anything. They need to establish credibility at SOMEthing before new markets of any kind will take them seriously. Even if it's selling blackberry pie... Lol. SOMEthing.

They still make the best pkb devices. Doesn't matter if NO one wants pkb, the fact that they are best at SOMEthing is what will lend credibility to public perception. Especially if 21M existing customers are happy customers. Happy or disgruntled, potential customers WILL notice. Happy is better.

This all assumes BB even has any fight left in its belly. They may be spent beyond hope, at this point. Nothing mentioned above is intended as actionable advice. Just ideas that might be worth talking about talking about.

Most if not all of the current BBOS owners will not be upgrading to a BlackBerry 10 model or they would have done so. Secondly, BlackBerry loses money on BB10 devices on gross margin and the OS costs.

Your only PKB hope is the Vienna that may or may not happen.

Posted via CB10

[idssteve]

Most if not all of the current BBOS owners will not be upgrading to a BlackBerry 10 model or they would have done so. Secondly, BlackBerry loses money on BB10 devices on gross margin and the OS costs.

Your only PKB hope is the Vienna that may or may not happen.

Posted via CB10

Hmm, I didn't realize BB10 was still eating them. If they're not in, or sloping toward, black after three years, that doesn't look promising.

I don't envy Chen.

[Bbnivende]

His break even is supposed to be lower. Say 5 million units per year. They should be able to do that with two Android phones. I guess we will find out on April 1.

I think that they might still sell BB10 phones until demand dries up completely.

Posted via CB10