[ravencore]

OS=airplane
Ecosystem=wings
Marketing=afterburner

And yet the iphone exploded on the scene with no wings... yet it didn't crash and burn.
If you look at the history of tech companies there are tons of underdogs that rise in spit of being out-gunned and there are plenty of example of companies that had near monopolies (like commodore or microsoft) and yet couldn't maintain their crown in spit of huge ecosystems. It's clearly much more complicated then the simple one liners you guys throw out to explain why every regular joe currently thinks Android is the only thing worth having. And it's also another temporary fad just like Palm OS and Windows Mobile.. not something BlackBerry should be hooking their train to.

[DrBoomBotz]

Because you guys are just throwing out excuses for the bb10 failure instead of talking about the big picture.
The fact is both Palm OS and Windows Mobile had billion more apps then Apple when the iPhone and Android launched yet it didn't stop them from getting adopted.
It's much more complicated then just the app ecosystem.
It is much more about connecting with people and getting them excited. BlackBerry felt old to people.. The iPhone seemed "hip" even though it's incredibly lame in reality. But if you can't change a perception then it's a marketing failure. It had nothing to do with apps.

And now I'm not curious anymore.
Thanks.

Apple changed the game.
If BlackBerry can change the game again then a big parade is in order.

Apple was in a bad place, they brought back their visionary founder and gave him a big hammer.
BlackBerry was in a bad place and they brought in Chen.
I think his mandate is quite different.

[ravencore]

BlackBerry was in a bad place and they brought in Chen.
I think his mandate is quite different.

His mandate is no different he just isn't up to it.

[ravencore]

And now I'm not curious anymore.
Thanks.

Out of my own curiosity: What made you cease to be curious? Just that I answered your question or that I spoke badly about the iPhone?

[DrBoomBotz]

Out of my own curiosity: What made you cease to be curious? Just that I answered your question or that I spoke badly about the iPhone?

Why yes, I was offended that you would cast aspersions on the greatest of all smartphones.

[ravencore]

Why yes, I was offended that you would cast aspersions on the greatest of all smartphones.

Ah, well no offense meant personally.
Honestly i've never understood why anyone likes the iPhone but I get that other people feel differently.

[anon(8063781)]

Really? What kind of reboot times are we talking about?

Let's compare actual minutes and seconds...

My Z10 is up and running from a cold boot (insert battery), hub loaded and all, in 1 minute and 30 seconds. When I first got it back in July '13, it was more like 1 minute, 45 seconds.

If your BBOS is up and running within at least 2 minutes, then I'll agree.

Note that some BB10 phones have the SIM password PIN lock enabled. That will add several minutes to the boat up time.

Posted via CB10

I just did a comparison. Q10 turned off vs Bold 9900 with battery pulled.

Hit the button on the Q10 and push the battery into place in the Bold 9900 at the same time.

Time to home screen:

Bold 9900 1m 19s

Q10 1m 21s

I think that the Bold 9900 actually takes another 15 or 20 seconds to stop loading programs in the background. I can't say if it does the same on the Q10, but in any case, it's close enough that the difference in boot times is meaningless to me.

[Jerry A]

Because you guys are just throwing out excuses for the bb10 failure instead of talking about the big picture.
The fact is both Palm OS and Windows Mobile had billion more apps then Apple when the iPhone and Android launched yet it didn't stop them from getting adopted.
It's much more complicated then just the app ecosystem.
It is much more about connecting with people and getting them excited. BlackBerry felt old to people.. The iPhone seemed "hip" even though it's incredibly lame in reality. But if you can't change a perception then it's a marketing failure. It had nothing to do with apps.

Neither if the examples you cite had "billions" of apps. PalmOS was already on a dead-end path and looking for a new success as early as 2006. That's one of the reasons they made a Windows-based Treo.

And let's not forget how they almost bankrupted themselves with the Folio fiasco in 2004/2005.

At least they recognized earlier than BlackBerry that they needed a next-gen offering. webOS was released in 2008.

Windows CE was doing well. But not as well as BlackBerry. Heck, BlackBerry cratered their market (anyone remember the HP Jordanas that practically disappeared overnite?).

When the iPhone appeared it redefined what a smartphone could be and could do. More power, more memory, full screen, capacitive touchscreen, no battery pulls, etc.

And people jumped for the better technology.

PalmOS, WinCE and BlackBerry had no response because their technology was just so far behind and limited compared to what Apple brought to the table.

Historically, no amount of marketing can convince people to stick with outstanding technology.

If all it took was marketing, we'd all still be riding horse and buggies, shaving with straight razors, and writing with fountain pens.

[Jerry A]

And now I'm not curious anymore.
Thanks.

Apple changed the game.
If BlackBerry can change the game again then a big parade is in order.

Apple was in a bad place, they brought back their visionary founder and gave him a big hammer.
BlackBerry was in a bad place and they brought in Chen.
I think his mandate is quite different.

In all fairness, they brought in Heins. Chen was brought in to salvage his mess. And by the time Chen came onboard a turnaround opportunity like Apple's was long gone.

[Jerry A]

I just did a comparison. Q10 turned off vs Bold 9900 with battery pulled.

Hit the button on the Q10 and push the battery into place in the Bold 9900 at the same time.

Time to home screen:

Bold 9900 1m 19s

Q10 1m 21s

I think that the Bold 9900 actually takes another 15 or 20 seconds to stop loading programs in the background. I can't say if it does the same on the Q10, but in any case, it's close enough that the difference in boot times is meaningless to me.

I envy you. My 9860 takes 3+ minutes to boot.

My Storm 2 used to take almost 8.

[anon(8063781)]

I envy you. My 9860 takes 3+ minutes to boot.

My Storm 2 used to take almost 8.

I wonder why the 9860 takes so long?

I have a Storm 2 (alarm clock ) and it has a very long boot time. I would say mine is in the 4 to 5 minute range, but I've never timed it. I usually start it and walk away.

[ravencore]

Neither if the examples you cite had "billions" of apps. PalmOS was already on a dead-end path and looking for a new success as early as 2006. That's one of the reasons they made a Windows-based Treo.

And let's not forget how they almost bankrupted themselves with the Folio fiasco in 2004/2005.

At least they recognized earlier than BlackBerry that they needed a next-gen offering. webOS was released in 2008.

Windows CE was doing well. But not as well as BlackBerry. Heck, BlackBerry cratered their market (anyone remember the HP Jordanas that practically disappeared overnite?).

When the iPhone appeared it redefined what a smartphone could be and could do. More power, more memory, full screen, capacitive touchscreen, no battery pulls, etc.

And people jumped for the better technology.

PalmOS, WinCE and BlackBerry had no response because their technology was just so far behind and limited compared to what Apple brought to the table.

Historically, no amount of marketing can convince people to stick with outstanding technology.

If all it took was marketing, we'd all still be riding horse and buggies, shaving with straight razors, and writing with fountain pens.

I was exaggerating on the billions but yes both palm and windows mobile had massive head starts on the app front. If it was just apps that mattered then no one would have ever left those ecosystems.
But just like the commodore computer, which at one point had 40% desktop computer marketshare.. market share especially in the high tech world, is no guarantee that a future upstart will not dethrone you.

You crediting the iPhone way too much. It wasn't that revolutionary and wasn't a huge upgrade. Your right they pushed capacitive touchscreen forward.. other then that the first iPhone was mediocre at best. Palm and Windows Mobile had already invented good mobile GUIs that apple and android just copied and incrementally improved. Having a non user replaceable battery was not a feature - it was done to make phone repairs difficult since apple believes users don't have a right to fix their own stuff. Heck the 1st iPhone couldn't even multitask because it ran so hot and un-efficient when ironically Palm OS was dissed for that for years before the iphone , and Widows Mobile had achieved that in the pocketpc days. Bigger screens have been a trend from the beginning.. apple didn't invent it and other phones at the same time had similar size specs. But I will agree that Steve Jobs was gifted at fooling, I mean reaching the masses that a non revolutionary device was somehow better then other devices that actually at the time offered much more functionality, like multi tasking. That was actually my point that Steve Jobs was gifted in marketing, which BlackBerry was lacking with bb10.

[ravencore]

If all it took was marketing, we'd all still be riding horse and buggies, shaving with straight razors, and writing with fountain pens.

It's actually funny you brought up horse and buggies since one of my other favorite people to read about is Henry Ford. In his day people in town called him the "crazy car guy" who went around nutty talking about how his horseless carriage was going to change the world.

He got the same reaction your guys are giving me - saying it's not possible to beat "android" since they have all the apps. Just like you, in a world full of carriages you only believe in carriages, and in a world full of android you only believe in android.

"Regular" people don't believe change is possible other then what is staring them right in the face at that moment.

The only reason Apple was able to make a comeback in the 90's is because Steve Jobs didn't think like regular people.- it wasn't that his product was so great but actually it was is that his belief in it reprogrammed you to believe in it too. That's what entrepreneurs do every day.

Whereas BlackBerry had lost the imagination of the masses and they had no one with the skills to make people believe again.

[anon(9721108)]

Should BlackBerry try to bring back the legacy devices running older OS and find a way to help all BlackBerry users move along by maybe keeping the support for all BlackBerry phones (Bold, BB10 phones, etc.) and introducing a new version of OS that runs on all devices?

I made this post mainly due to seeing how BlackBerry is dying and me hoping BlackBerry can turn things around and survive and also me missing the old Bold phones (perfect size and form factor.)

What do you think?

Posted via CB10

this actually reminds me of Apple's last few ios updates, they were designed to make the older 4S and newer devices run faster because so many people still use the older devices, and people complained that their Apple devices went obsolete too quickly and could not be updated after a little while (usually 2 years).

So I understand what you are saying and I think its a good idea but with so many older apps not bothering to update because there is no future for developers to work with legacy devices, it's not looking too hopeful. Now with Whatsapp getting a death date of "sometime later this year" it is almost like one of the few last nails in the coffin.

I'm going to use mine as long as I can and I have an iphone that is being neglected and it cannot understand why

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[JeepBB]

You crediting the iPhone way too much. It wasn't that revolutionary and wasn't a huge upgrade.
.

You lost me at this point.

I can't view anything else you say with any seriousness after that.

Such wilful dismissal of the disruptive change that the iPhone brought to the world is beyond me.

[Robert Roger]

I left BB10 Z10 two weeks ago,I sold it for half price I've bought. The android apps have been lagging.no decent maps apps.And announcements about whatsapp...
I moved to Windows phone.I was afraid of missing BB Hub. And flow of BB. Surprisingly,I'm not missing any of these.
Moving to Windows was one of the best decisions. Android or iPhone not for my taste.
I was so blindly devote to BB and I shouldn't after the first time they messed up with Playbook.
After Chen what he did now with BB, I will never trust again BB.
Good bee.

[barbarianthemadserb]

For me, regardless of all the pros n cons and seemingly good logic, I would be in heaven if BB resurrected the BB9900 (more ram and maybe a dual core?). I know it is not gonna happen. My bb9900 still is my daily driver and chief communications tool. I also have a Z10, Z30, Passport, BB Priv (plus android devices such as Nexus 5, 5x,6). To me, all the newer stuff are gadgets that I enjoy but my go to is always my BB9900. ahhh, bring back the 50's-I know I know it's a pipe dream. lol

[Thiagu AB]

Yep... it might be a smaller screen mobile and not fit for the current market but we all know that the Keyboard and making breaking calls are even better than the Current costly Touch Phones.I really love the Blackberry Bold Series OS7 Mobile's Keyboard,OS RELIABILITY,SMS text bubbles, Apps icon,Notification Designs,Email Management Especially Hiding Folder and the quick receiving sending operations for EMAIL even in 2G network.Above these all we need a perfect phone to Make Calls and send SMS. I love to work with SMS than Whatsapp or iMessage or anything that needs Data Plan.

[Jerry A]

It's actually funny you brought up horse and buggies since one of my other favorite people to read about is Henry Ford. In his day people in town called him the "crazy car guy" who went around nutty talking about how his horseless carriage was going to change the world.

He got the same reaction your guys are giving me - saying it's not possible to beat "android" since they have all the apps. Just like you, in a world full of carriages you only believe in carriages, and in a world full of android you only believe in android.

Seriously? You're the exact opposite of Ford. He's Apple in this situation (new disruptive, industry tech).

You're more like Lazaridis (or the Ford naysayers), mocking the innovation and hoping for the best while staying stagnant.

It's not that I only believe in Android. I believe that people aren't as stupid as you wish they were and can be marketed into accepting an inferior solution.

[Jerry A]

You lost me at this point.

I can't view anything else you say with any seriousness after that.

Such wilful dismissal of the disruptive change that the iPhone brought to the world is beyond me.

Agreed. I think we're being trolled.

Didja see the Ford comment?

W? T? F?!?

[DrBoomBotz]

Whereas BlackBerry had lost the imagination of the masses and they had no one with the skills to make people believe again.

You mean like this guy?

[TgeekB]

Because you guys are just throwing out excuses for the bb10 failure instead of talking about the big picture.
The fact is both Palm OS and Windows Mobile had billion more apps then Apple when the iPhone and Android launched yet it didn't stop them from getting adopted.
It's much more complicated then just the app ecosystem.
It is much more about connecting with people and getting them excited. BlackBerry felt old to people.. The iPhone seemed "hip" even though it's incredibly lame in reality. But if you can't change a perception then it's a marketing failure. It had nothing to do with apps.

I think you're both right. It's about the app ECOSYTEM, not just apps. Its all about connecting with your base in an emotional way. Apple did this well, Blackberry did not.

[idssteve]

Who's going to develop apps for an ecosystem almost no one knows exists? Catch 22.

Marketing wouldn't have been THE answer but folks generally find it easier to know you're still alive if they can at least hear you breathing.

[idssteve]

For me, regardless of all the pros n cons and seemingly good logic, I would be in heaven if BB resurrected the BB9900 (more ram and maybe a dual core?). I know it is not gonna happen. My bb9900 still is my daily driver and chief communications tool. I also have a Z10, Z30, Passport, BB Priv (plus android devices such as Nexus 5, 5x,6). To me, all the newer stuff are gadgets that I enjoy but my go to is always my BB9900. ahhh, bring back the 50's-I know I know it's a pipe dream. lol

Yep. My fingers and thumbs are still the same length they were 5 yrs ago. "Technology" has outpaced biology, it seems. Even the BIG players seem to be recognizing a potential market for compact FF comfort. something BB HAD a head start with. Once again, they'll surrender that niche also. I've never seen anyone win a race by FOLLOWing the leader across the finish line. Lol.

[moonhacker]

I think you're both right. It's about the app ECOSYTEM, not just apps. Its all about connecting with your base in an emotional way. Apple did this well, Blackberry did not.

Diddo...