[Bbnivende]

Belfast maybe referring to the push email experience. Some just like the menu / trackpad navigation and small device size.

Posted via CB10

[bobshine]

BBOS is long gone, BB10 was DOA, they could make a BBOS clone using Android, as long as it generally maintains the same experience.

Well that's what BlackBerry 10 was... sort of!

Posted via CB10

[DamianWarS]

Well guys... I'll make it simple for you. I work with one of the major banks here in Canada and there is zero applications available for BBOS nor BlackBerry 10.

so why, and why should BlackBerry go back to BBOS ?

Posted via CB10

So what you're saying is there is no net loss using a legacy device over using a bb10 at least as far as app support goes with this bank.

Posted via CB10

[TgeekB]

Belfast maybe referring to the push email experience. Some just like the menu / trackpad navigation and small device size.

Posted via CB10

Yup. Very simplistic but works perfectly for some.

[belfastdispatcher]

Well that's what BlackBerry 10 was... sort of!

Posted via CB10

Except it wasn't or all those bbos users would've upgraded.

[JeepBB]

Except it wasn't or all those bbos users would've upgraded.

I have to agree with this, even though I disagree with the premise that BBOS is erm, "the future".

The amount of BBOS awesomeness that wasn't on the Z10 when it was launched was truly shocking. Many on the CB forums at the time saw BB10.0 as a downgrade from BBOS.

[joeldf]

Updates are so rare now that it's impossible to speak of "all" of your apps updating. It's one at a time. In my experience, reboot times on the last iterations of BBOS7.1 are no worse than on BB10.

Posted via CB10

Really? What kind of reboot times are we talking about?

Let's compare actual minutes and seconds...

My Z10 is up and running from a cold boot (insert battery), hub loaded and all, in 1 minute and 30 seconds. When I first got it back in July '13, it was more like 1 minute, 45 seconds.

If your BBOS is up and running within at least 2 minutes, then I'll agree.

Note that some BB10 phones have the SIM password PIN lock enabled. That will add several minutes to the boat up time.

Posted via CB10

[bobshine]

So what you're saying is there is no net loss using a legacy device over using a bb10 at least as far as app support goes with this bank.

Posted via CB10

Yeah that's why we are with iOS now! BlackBerry 10 was considered but no developer support.

So if we come back to the subject of this thread, knowing what I just mentioned above, bringing back BBOS would just be the equivalent of flushing money down the toilet.

Posted via CB10

[donnation]

I have to agree with this, even though I disagree with the premise that BBOS is erm, "the future".

The amount of BBOS awesomeness that wasn't on the Z10 when it was launched was truly shocking. Many on the CB forums at the time saw BB10.0 as a downgrade from BBOS.

10.0 was a downgrade. A lot of people talked about how awesome it was until 10.1 when people began saying "finally BB10 is complete, 10.0 was a buggy mess," until 10.2 came out and people then started saying "well 10.1 wasn't really ready, but 10.2 is the real deal." Rinse and repeat for 10.3.

I'll add that people were so thrilled to have a BB phone with a capable web browser they overlooked what a mess 10.0 was.

[bobshine]

I have to agree with this, even though I disagree with the premise that BBOS is erm, "the future".

The amount of BBOS awesomeness that wasn't on the Z10 when it was launched was truly shocking. Many on the CB forums at the time saw BB10.0 as a downgrade from BBOS.

I don't think you understand. No one beside loyal BlackBerry users wanted BBOS... and even that userbase was shrinking fast (leaving for Android or iOS). So the point of bb10 was not to bring back an experience similar to BBOS! It would be more of the same... nothing to convince people to stay with BlackBerry.

The idea with BlackBerry 10 was to bring users from other platforms by offering apps and a similar experience... with a BlackBerry "touch"

Developers never jumped on the bandwagon and that just killed the device.

Posted via CB10

[JeepBB]

I don't think you understand. No one beside loyal BlackBerry users wanted BBOS... and even that userbase was shrinking fast (leaving for Android or iOS). So the point of bb10 was not to bring back an experience similar to BBOS! It would be more of the same... nothing to convince people to stay with BlackBerry.

The idea with BlackBerry 10 was to bring users from other platforms by offering apps and a similar experience... with a BlackBerry "touch"

Developers never jumped on the bandwagon and that just killed the device.

Actually, I think I understand quite well.

I fully understand that BB10 was never intended to replicate BBOS. BB10 was BB's transition from BBOS to a "modern smartphone OS". It failed!

It failed because it didn't appeal to iOS and Android users - contrary to what you suggest, it offered nothing for them, so they didn't buy BB10 in any sizeable numbers. Nobody from any other platform was interested in BB10 - an OS with incomplete features and few Apps. Anyone with even half an eye on the tech world could have written that outcome back in 2013... and many here did!

So, given that nobody on any other platform was interested, BB10's hopes for success rested on it migrating as many of those BBOS users as possible to the new BB platform. And BB failed there too!

There were few touchpoints between BBOS and BB10, therefore no comfort zone for those transitioning, which might have been understandable and forgiveable. What was not understandable, nor forgiveable, was features that worked perfectly in BBOS being implemented in BB10 in a flawed and incomplete manner. BB10.0 was a downgrade... and the majority of BBOS users either kept their BBOS devices or moved to other platforms - shaking their heads sadly at the depth of BB's incompetence.

What's that line about only having one chance to make a first impression?

So, having alienated BBOS users, and having nothing to attract iOS/Android users; BB10 was fatally wounded at launch and the outcome was almost inevitable. And here we are.

BB seem to have learned though. The Priv has a number of BB10-like features (unfortunately not yet finished - oh so BlackBerry ) and access to the Google Play Store... so it might actually pull across some of the BB10 users. I doubt there'll be enough of them to save BB hardware though. We'll know more on 1st April.

[joeldf]

10.0 was a downgrade. A lot of people talked about how awesome it was until 10.1 when people began saying "finally BB10 is complete, 10.0 was a buggy mess," until 10.2 came out and people then started saying "well 10.1 wasn't really ready, but 10.2 is the real deal." Rinse and repeat for 10.3.

I'll add that people were so thrilled to have a BB phone with a capable web browser they overlooked what a mess 10.0 was.

I waited for two things to happen before getting my Z10, upgrading from a, by then, two and a half year old 9800. First, AT&T had to offer a refurbished model - which they had by July of '13. Second, the release of 10.1. I had been keeping up with BB10 since release right here on these forums and waited on certain features to make it into the OS. I can't remember all the things that made it into 10.1, but I think Bedside Mode was one of them. That was enough for me to go for it, and hope other things make it eventually (most of my wishes have).

I've never said "this is it, now it's done". It was never done. My "now, how about...." list has gotten shorter over time, but still not completely crossed out.

Honestly, the biggest thing that attracted me to BB10 was native Exchange Activesync support. My work had BES at one time but had dumped it several years before I got my Z10. I had to rely on my BIS tying into Outlook Web Access to get my work emails in the 9800, and a Pearl 8100 before that. Of course, that left the device on its own for calendar and contacts. No real support for meeting invites that way either. And, BIS polled for my emails every 15 minutes since neither the work email nor my personal home ISP email supported push through BIS.

So, while some here espouse the wonders of BIS push email, remember that only certain email services supported it, and not everyone could experience the wonders.

With BB10, however, I finally got real push email on my work account through EAS - calendar and contact syncing OTA too. No such luck with my home email since my ISP's IMAP implementation apparently does not support push. But, keeping up with work was, and still is, more important to me.

Posted via CB10

[ravencore]

OP, remember that legacy devices is the reason why BlackBerry is where it is today

Posted via CB10

Nope - decaying corporate culture is the reason for that. They stopped innovating.

[ravencore]

Developers never jumped on the bandwagon and that just killed the device.

Posted via CB10

Developers will go to any ecosystem that has users. The problem was in the marketing.. blackberry completely failed to market bb10.

[DrBoomBotz]

Developers will go to any ecosystem that has users. The problem was in the marketing.. blackberry completely failed to market bb10.

But users won't go to a platform without an app ecosystem when 2 viable alternatives exist.
This has all been discussed to death.

I'm really curious why you can't see this.

[thurask]

Developers will go to any ecosystem that has users. The problem was in the marketing.. blackberry completely failed to market bb10.

Marketing exposes a product, but if the product has flaws besides exposure (chiefly, ecosystem), then advertisement wouldn't be the panacea some think it is.

[DrBoomBotz]

OS=airplane
Ecosystem=wings
Marketing=afterburner

[Jerry A]

But users won't go to a platform without an app ecosystem when 2 viable alternatives exist.
This has all been discussed to death.

I'm really curious why you can't see this.

I'm guessing many don't see it because they honestly believe that everyone else is wrong.

They throw in the marketing panacea thinking that a hip campaign will make all these "sheep," "idiots," etc come over to the BB10 platform.

After all, everyone else is sooooooo stupid that they'll naturally jump ship once they're shown the error of their non-BB10 ways.

They have no grasp of the economic and marketing term "rational consumer." You know, the basic principles that state people maximize utility and need a motivating reason to embrace a product (ie it HAS to be better in a tangible way).

Those that grasp the above then start on the reductive narrative. You know, "all the other features are a waste, i don't use them so you must obviously be mistaken for using them."

At least that's my experience and observation. It's the smartphone version of Emo/Goth reactionism.

Great, now i have Bauhaus, The Cure and The Sisters of Mercy songs stuck in my head.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Their preference for high priced devices lately is killing them. I think that's the main issue. BBOS, BB10, BB Android..... it doesn't matter. None of them are going to sell if priced higher than more popular models.

Their preference for selling high-priced devices is closely tied to their preference to at least breaking even on the hardware business. Even with Android, BB needs to sell 5M high-priced, high-margin devices to break even. With BB10, BB needed 10M fairly high-priced devices to break even (10M Leaps wouldn't get it done), because the costs of keeping the BB10 platform at a remotely viable level of development is much higher.

BB would probably need to be selling 20+M devices per year in order to be able to break even on a lower-cost (Leap-type) device. Without volume, there are no economies of scale, and there's to much competition at the low end of the market to compete there.

[TgeekB]

Their preference for selling high-priced devices is closely tied to their preference to at least breaking even on the hardware business. Even with Android, BB needs to sell 5M high-priced, high-margin devices to break even. With BB10, BB needed 10M fairly high-priced devices to break even (10M Leaps wouldn't get it done), because the costs of keeping the BB10 platform at a remotely viable level of development is much higher.

BB would probably need to be selling 20+M devices per year in order to be able to break even on a lower-cost (Leap-type) device. Without volume, there are no economies of scale, and there's to much competition at the low end of the market to compete there.

I agree, but I don't see it working. Somehow they have to convince enough people to overpay for an Android device made by Blackberry. I hope it works, but I won't be one of them.

[Bbnivende]

Actually, I think I understand quite well.

I fully understand that BB10 was never intended to replicate BBOS. BB10 was BB's transition from BBOS to a "modern smartphone OS". It failed!

It failed because it didn't appeal to iOS and Android users - contrary to what you suggest, it offered nothing for them, so they didn't buy BB10 in any sizeable numbers. Nobody from any other platform was interested in BB10 - an OS with incomplete features and few Apps. Anyone with even half an eye on the tech world could have written that outcome back in 2013... and many here did!

So, given that nobody on any other platform was interested, BB10's hopes for success rested on it migrating as many of those BBOS users as possible to the new BB platform. And BB failed there too!

There were few touchpoints between BBOS and BB10, therefore no comfort zone for those transitioning, which might have been understandable and forgiveable. What was not understandable, nor forgiveable, was features that worked perfectly in BBOS being implemented in BB10 in a flawed and incomplete manner. BB10.0 was a downgrade... and the majority of BBOS users either kept their BBOS devices or moved to other platforms - shaking their heads sadly at the depth of BB's incompetence.

What's that line about only having one chance to make a first impression?

So, having alienated BBOS users, and having nothing to attract iOS/Android users; BB10 was fatally wounded at launch and the outcome was almost inevitable. And here we are.

BB seem to have learned though. The Priv has a number of BB10-like features (unfortunately not yet finished - oh so BlackBerry ) and access to the Google Play Store... so it might actually pull across some of the BB10 users. I doubt there'll be enough of them to save BB hardware though. We'll know more on 1st April.

The reverse was also true. The VKB on the 9860 was really bad and the BBOS browser was not as good as the competition. By 2013, BBOS products could barely be called a smartphone.

Speaking for myself, I never upgraded to the Q10 because the screen was hardly any larger than my 9900 and yet it lacked a track pad. IMO a 3.1 inch screen was too small to support a gesture based OS. A significant number of BBOS users were more comfortable with a menu based / home key, phone button approach over what was offered on the Q10.






Posted via CB10

[zramil]

Resounding yes. Bold 9780 and 9790 are the perfect size, form factor, everything as far as I'm concerned.

[Bbnivende]

Resounding yes. Bold 9780 and 9790 are the perfect size, form factor, everything as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry, a 2.45 inch screen is a tad small but you could get a strap and wear it on your wrist.

Posted via CB10

[Roveer]

I spent some time this weekend with an old friend who used to use BB phones (BB7). She had a new Samsung S6 edge. She had nothing but complaints about it. Too Big, too heavy, curved screen allowed you to hit buttons just holding phone. Can't text on the keyboard. Can't hold in one hand. On and on. At one point I pulled out my Torch to reply to a text and she started complaining again how she missed her BB phones. She told me that she looked at the Priv and that it was too big and too flimsy. Those were my too complaints. I told her there was a vienna prototype that we were all hoping would come to market but nobody knows if it will ever appear.

I'm sure she'll get used to the Samsung but just listening to her complaints (unsolicited) were basically to a point all of the things that I've worried about when considering a move away from a BB device. I took her phone and put it on my waist sideways. Never going to happen. I too can't seem to type a simple message on a screen based keyboard (that includes the torch screen keyboard).

So for me, I'm not an app hound, but having some apps is a good thing, but having a physical keyboard seems to be a big need for me.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the legacy type form factors come back as new phones. But i know that I'm in the minority and that's no way to run a business. I would like to see the Vienna though...

Roveer

[ravencore]

But users won't go to a platform without an app ecosystem when 2 viable alternatives exist.
This has all been discussed to death.

I'm really curious why you can't see this.

Because you guys are just throwing out excuses for the bb10 failure instead of talking about the big picture.
The fact is both Palm OS and Windows Mobile had billion more apps then Apple when the iPhone and Android launched yet it didn't stop them from getting adopted.
It's much more complicated then just the app ecosystem.
It is much more about connecting with people and getting them excited. BlackBerry felt old to people.. The iPhone seemed "hip" even though it's incredibly lame in reality. But if you can't change a perception then it's a marketing failure. It had nothing to do with apps.