[kcdist]

Woah... this thread disappeared on me LOL.

Off-topic question: if Richardat has been spot on with his prognostications, how does that hurt BBRY?

Well.....I'll spell it out.

Say John is interested in purchasing a new Blackberry. Like every good consumer, he does his research. He Googles "Blackberry" and ends up on Crackberry.com.

John reads the News and Product Reviews, and then delves into the forums to read feedback from actual Blackberry users. He reads negative posts from not only actual Blackberry users who may be having issues, but also the comments from the problem posters....the Blackberry haters....the negative nellies.....those whose hobby, paid or otherwise, seems to be going from thread to thread, drowning any positivity out of comments. Kind of like the Dementors from Harry Potter.

John finishes his session with the thought "Wow....if all this negative crap is on a fan site, perhaps I'll rethink my purchase"

So there you have it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I think there's tonnes of room for those that have a general Blackberry hate-on, on sites like BRG, All Things Digital and the like.....post away.

However, I think posting on a fan site like crackberry.com should be reserved for those that generally like or did like the products, and want the company to succeed. That's not saying constructive criticism shouldn't be allowed.....but, this site has morphed into a beast of negativity with many posters seemingly waiting for a chance to dance on the grave of Blackberry.

I dunno.....I don't go on a lot of other sites. Maybe the Ford Mustang Fan Club is full of Mustang haters who belittle people that enjoy driving Mustangs??

[kcdist]

Clever, except you forget the part where the carriers were "forced" to sign those contracts, which was the genesis of my question. Or, more to the point, if carriers can be forced to buy devices, why hasn't BBRY done some forcing of its own? You know. . . "Take these Z10s. . .or else." It could work, right?

Easy.

The same principle is common throughout the business world. Say I want to sell Acme Wigits. I contact the Acme Wigit manufacturer. As he knows his products are in high demand, and as he also want some certainty for his assembly line, he, being in the position of power, allows me to carry his product, so long as I agree to purchase 1.2 million units per year. He makes me sign a contract with major financial penalties if I don't meet my quota.

Six months into the year, I've only sold 400 thousand Acme Wigits. I'm not meeting my quota, and could be in for a major hit if I don't increase my Acme Wigit sales.

Along comes Blueberry Wigits. The would like me to sell their product. I agree, as I want to diversify, however, in this case, I am in the position of power, as they need me more than I need them. I carry their products, but I give them no guarantees on sales numbers.

If a customer comes into my store looking specifically for Blueberry Wigits, I make a sale that I otherwise might have lost. Conversely, if a customer comes into my store looking for any Wigit, I steer him towards the Acme Wigit, as I'm still contractually obligated to buy 800 thousand more before the year is out.

There. Clear?

[Wiki Cydia]

Easy.

The same principle is common throughout the business world. Say I want to sell Acme Wigits. I contact the Acme Wigit manufacturer. As he knows his products are in high demand, and as he also want some certainty for his assembly line, he, being in the position of power, allows me to carry his product, so long as I agree to purchase 1.2 million units per year. He makes me sign a contract with major financial penalties if I don't meet my quota.

Six months into the year, I've only sold 400 thousand Acme Wigits. I'm not meeting my quota, and could be in for a major hit if I don't increase my Acme Wigit sales.

Along comes Blueberry Wigits. The would like me to sell their product. I agree, as I want to diversify, however, in this case, I am in the position of power, as they need me more than I need them. I carry their products, but I give them no guarantees on sales numbers.

If a customer comes into my store looking specifically for Blueberry Wigits, I make a sale that I otherwise might have lost. Conversely, if a customer comes into my store looking for any Wigit, I steer him towards the Acme Wigit, as I'm still contractually obligated to buy 800 thousand more before the year is out.

There. Clear?

No, it's not clear at all. You wanted to sell widgets. You entered into a contract to sell widgets. You weren't forced into that deal at all. It may have been a bad deal for you because you miscalculated, but I don't see any hint of "force."

[Tre Lawrence]

It's way simpler to me. BBRY messed up. No one did that for them. Apple and Google get way more complaints per capita than any other platform, and they make it.

No "hater" can cause a potential buyer to forego a purchase. They didn't stop you, did they? No forum user created this mess. If someone points out that Android has bloatware, well, unless Google kills the bloatware, Android has bloatware.

Negative discussions follow negative performances. I understand wavering to avoid some discussions, but in a forum with "ignore" functionality, that is easily rectified.

[kcdist]

No, it's not clear at all. You wanted to sell widgets. You entered into a contract to sell widgets. You weren't forced into that deal at all. It may have been a bad deal for you because you miscalculated, but I don't see any hint of "force."

You're correct. I wasn't originally 'forced' to sign a deal with Acme, but, based on the information I had, I thought it was what I needed to do, even if the terms were not in my favour. However, after six months, and realizing I am falling behind in my agreed up Acme purchases, I am essentially 'forced' to sell them, so as to not face financial sanctions from Acme.

How's that?

[Wiki Cydia]

You're correct. I wasn't originally 'forced' to sign a deal with Acme, but, based on the information I had, I thought it was what I needed to do, even if the terms were not in my favour. However, after six months, and realizing I am falling behind in my agreed up Acme purchases, I am essentially 'forced' to sell them, so as to not face financial sanctions from Acme.

How's that?

It's better, but not by much. Remember, you still signed a contract for a product without any duress or force. It's like financing a car. When I agree to finance it, I agree to make the payments. If the car is wrecked and I owe more than my insurer is willing to pay, I don't get to say "well, you know the car is wrecked, so I really don't care to pay the balance due." Similarly, if I finance a house and the house burns down, I don't get to walk away from the loan just because I miscalculated and didn't buy enough insurance. That's not how business works.

[Roo Zilla]

Well.....I'll spell it out.

Say John is interested in purchasing a new Blackberry. Like every good consumer, he does his research. He Googles "Blackberry" and ends up on Crackberry.com.

John reads the News and Product Reviews, and then delves into the forums to read feedback from actual Blackberry users. He reads negative posts from not only actual Blackberry users who may be having issues, but also the comments from the problem posters....the Blackberry haters....the negative nellies.....those whose hobby, paid or otherwise, seems to be going from thread to thread, drowning any positivity out of comments. Kind of like the Dementors from Harry Potter.

John finishes his session with the thought "Wow....if all this negative crap is on a fan site, perhaps I'll rethink my purchase"

So there you have it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I think there's tonnes of room for those that have a general Blackberry hate-on, on sites like BRG, All Things Digital and the like.....post away.

However, I think posting on a fan site like crackberry.com should be reserved for those that generally like or did like the products, and want the company to succeed. That's not saying constructive criticism shouldn't be allowed.....but, this site has morphed into a beast of negativity with many posters seemingly waiting for a chance to dance on the grave of Blackberry.

I dunno.....I don't go on a lot of other sites. Maybe the Ford Mustang Fan Club is full of Mustang haters who belittle people that enjoy driving Mustangs??

I'm gonna tell you the truth. We're all paid by Crackberry to keep the site active. Without us, the BlackBerry fans would have nobody to complain about. Think about it.... would you have posted multiple times in this thread without the likes of Richardat et. al.?

[JakeTheCat]

I'm gonna tell you the truth. We're all paid by Crackberry to keep the site active. Without us, the BlackBerry fans would have nobody to complain about. Think about it.... would you have posted multiple times in this thread without the likes of Richardat et. al.?

The thought has crossed my mind. And given that CrackBerry is one division of Mobile Nations with its own revenue and cost structure it may be a good strategy - who knows!

[m1a1mg]

Despite what some may think, all of the top executives at Verizon would have killed their mothers to get the right to sell the iPhone. AT&T was kicking their collective a**.

[bennelong]

No "hater" can cause a potential buyer to forego a purchase.

Hi Tre. Sorry for not quoting you in full but I almost didn't buy a replacement for my previously damaged Z10 after reading these forums.
I except that you also raised valid points, but I isolated the one statement to which I take exception.
The first Z10 worked flawlessly, never once rebooting (on 10.0 & 10.1) - yet it failed the water immersion test. My current Z10 has never rebooted and is a far more serviceable device for my own personal needs than the two Samsungs I had prior to going BlackBerry and indeed every phone prior to those.
I understand that a smartphone is to most people, the sum total of it's installed applications, but in my case it was the properties of the QNX core implementation which led me to make what I considered an informed choice in device.
I haven't used my (Windows) lap-top since shortly after going to the Z10 and this device embodies what would have constituted my 'wildest dreams' as per 'mobile computing' one decade ago.

[If you're aware of them, please excuse the edits as I pressed Post accidentally very shortly after having chosen to comment, requiring some mental gymnastics on CB10 - with a sprained thumb to boot ;-) ]


Z10 via CB10

[CrackedBarry]

That said, the premise of this thread is very simple. OP linked to a story that implicated Samsung in spreading negative stories about their competition. I agreed that Blackberry has also likely been on the receiving end of some of these types of shenanigans. I also believe that Crackberry.com, as the largest English language Blackberry fan website, has also likely been subjected to negative posting with less than honorable intentions.

Well, for what it's worth I'm glad you didn't lose too much money on BBRY.

As for "negative posters" on Crackberry, you're confusing cause and effect. Do they hurt BBRYs image and reputation? Yes, to some extent.
(Though its only a small percentage of cellphone users that visit dedicated forums like this.)
But it's a side effect of the horrendous mismanagement of Blackberry, more than anything else.

I can't speak for all of the posters you might have in mind, but most of the are former Blackberry users themselves. Blackberry has a history of not listening to their customers, releasing subpar products, and worst of all: Whether deliberately or not, misleading their customers and fans with constant delays, and products that don't live up to what was promised. Look at the Playbook.

Blackberry has done a tremendous job at alienating their own customers, and if the company had listened to critics and "trolls" as early as 3-4 years ago, things might have turned out very differently.

[CrackedBarry]

As he knows his products are in high demand, and as he also want some certainty for his assembly line, he, being in the position of power, allows me to carry his product, so long as I agree to purchase 1.2 million units per year. He makes me sign a contract with major financial penalties if I don't meet my quota.

Six months into the year, I've only sold 400 thousand Acme Wigits. I'm not meeting my quota, and could be in for a major hit if I don't increase my Acme Wigit sales.

Along comes Blueberry Wigits....

Well, it seems that you're not a very good widget salesman, if you can't properly predict future demand for Acme Widget, and sign contracts based on faulty predictions...

But back to the cellphone market: Apple requiring a carrier to commit to a certain number of models isn't anything unique or unfair. It's a common practice, to commit to buying a certain number of product, when its in high demand.

And again you're confusing cause and effect. The iPhone started out on one carrier, and was exclusive for a number of years. Verizon wanted a competitor, and turned to Blackberry. The result was the Storm. Enough said...

If Blackberry had released better products that people wanted over the iPhone, neither Sprint nor Verizon would have ended up as desperate to get the iPhone to their network as they ended up being.

Do salespersons sometimes try to steer people away from Blackberries? Yes, but not because Samsung is bribing them (though I wouldn't put it past them) or because of a deliberate corporate policy. (Imagine the lawsuit, if this was the case. $12 an hour sales associates aren't good at keeping secrets).
The reason they sometimes steer people away from Blackberries, is for the most part because they have seen too many returns on the phones. It's expensive for the store and a hassle for the employees. The many returns is again Blackberrys fault, for the most part because they didn't listen to their customers and the market. Just look at how low in customer satisfaction Blackberries have ranked over the years.

[richardat]

Thanks for your comments Richard. You became very passionate and the only times I've ever seen anyone get so defensive is when that person feels they have something to defend. So what is it you are defending? Are you short the stock then?

Jake,

I should think it be very obvious what i was defending. I was defending against completely false allegations which that poster continues to spew. If you were a long-term poster here, I think you would find that if you logged into a thread (and one I wasn't even involved in for that matter!) and saw completely false allegations about you, that you might be inclined to respond as well. How about if a poster started openly proclaiming you to be a paid Blackberry shill who was just here to mislead people, and mispresent yoruself? Wouldn't bother you? How about if claim you are a criminal? Child molester? Ponzi scam artist? Shoplifter?

I think if anybody has ever accused you falsely in your life (and I hope you haven't had that experience) you would understand just how off-putting that is.

Fortunately, I think the validity of kcdists accusations and posts are now clear, and it doesn't bother me anymore. I think CB'ers are a bit smarter than he/she imagines - regardless of their personal feelings towards BB, or towards me.

These kinds of allegations - based on absolutely NOTHING ie. I don't like your opinion - even though it was correct - so I'm going to think of the most insulting assumption about why you're here and accuse you of it - even though I don't know a THING about you, well they show the morality, and intellect of the accuser.

In terms of gracefully losing money....well other posters are doing that all over CB right now. Sure some complain - some of the complaints have absolute merit - but most, accept at least some responsibility for their mistakes. Some have openly talked about having learned various lessons. A couple have even said to me: I wish i had listened to you - that's stunning - it takes quite a person to admit they were wrong - especially on the internet, but doesn't make me feel better - if somebody is a big enough person to say that, then I don't feel good in the slightest about their losses, or their sadness now. All of these people - show character! On the other hand, I can't think of a better way to simply compound your errors by lashing out at other posters, trying to put responsibility on them AND making false allegations about them.....CB'ers can decide for themselves what kind of character does that.

FOR THE RECORD: I hold NO position - and have NEVER held any position in Blackberry or RIM - or Apple, or Samsung. In fact, the only tech stocks I have ever owned are AMD, ATI, and MS. (fun trivia: did really REALLY well on AMD, pretty well with ATI, lost a mild amount on MS - didn't actually want MS...but another party pushed for it....it basically did nothing at he time, went down slightly before I sold)

Having said that, I absolutely, were I playing stocks (I'm not), shorted RIm the last 2 years, up until this year. I would have gone in at 40$ or even 20$...but below that.... at that point, and throughout this year, I have had no strong feeling about BBRY except that it would, in general, go down/stay low, however, I felt they had already essentially reached "bottom"....frankly I'm surprised it's dipped as low as it has at times. In any case, others have eloquently pointed out how ridiculously implausible it is to blame us for BB's demise, nor it's stock price - which ultimately has been a pretty accurate reflection in the big picture of their results.

...and no...I won't be answering to anymore accusations about my "motivation" from either of you. As I have pointed out over and over, it's not even rational to ask. Were i a liar as accused, I could simply lie and say anything I wanted. My guess is, most regulars here, will have be able to sense that I'm not - but in the end, i have no control over what people choose to believe.

[richardat]

Woah... this thread disappeared on me LOL.

Off-topic question: if Richardat has been spot on with his prognostications, how does that hurt BBRY?

I guess kcdist should be profusely thanking Mr. Samsung for sending me.....could have saved them a lot of money.... I come to your forum earthlings with a grave warning....klaatu barada nikto!!!!

[kcdist]

I can't speak for all of the posters you might have in mind, but most of the are former Blackberry users themselves. Blackberry has a history of not listening to their customers, releasing subpar products, and worst of all: Whether deliberately or not, misleading their customers and fans with constant delays, and products that don't live up to what was promised.

There seems to be almost a circular argument going on here.

No one disputes Blackberry made a series of errors that lead them to their current situation. Some believe they had help getting here, some think they did it all on their own. Fair enough.

There is also do doubt that some Crackberry.com posters that fit the '100% negative, 100% of the time' category might have been original Blackberry customers who had a bad experience or two. However, if that were the case, why do they still post here? Are they really trying to save the remaining Blackberry fans from ourselves? I can understand a negative post or two on the way out.....but they stay. Hundreds and Thousands of posts, all raining on the parade. Despite Richards ramblings, and the odd slag from other negative posters, I have yet to see a single reasonable answer as to why. Not one.

Therefore, and with the quantity of posters I'm referring to, I'm lead to believe something else is at play. Of course, I'm not alone. Daily, there are numbers of threads where posters ask the same questions.

Ultimately, the argument will never be concluded. No paid poster would ever admit it. Instead, they would revert to mockery or feign outrage that someone would even suggest such a slanderous thing (see examples of both in the above posts).

All that said, my point has been made.....One day Crackberry might want to look at this issue - or not.

Out.

[Wiki Cydia]

Despite Richards ramblings, and the odd slag from other negative posters, I have yet to see a single reasonable answer as to why. Not one.

I know how you feel. I'm still waiting on an answer as to how carriers are "forced" into contracts. Waiting for answers is a real pain.

[sinsin07]

Shady Practices by Samsung Affecting BBRY?

Hard to tell due to "Shady Practices by Blackberry Affecting BBRY".

[exiledcanadian]

It's not shady practices. It's part of affiliate marketing programs that everyone uses. If you want to see it in action, just go to BBWorld and see how many apps have 5-star, one word reviews.

Posted via CB10

[qbnkelt]

Wow...what a thread....

[Shlooky]

BBRY affected BBRY.