[gregorylkelly]

I'm having trouble trying to figure if BB (or carriers...not looking for that debate in here) is making the right move by releasing the Z10 in March or if the delay was a complete mistake.

First of all, when the Z10 was delayed from Q4 2012 to Q1 2013, we all heard a bunch of times that RIM was making a huge mistake by releasing their new Flagship device in Jan/Feb because that is the worst time of the year to release a new phone, right after the holiday season. Now that BB isn't releasing the Z10 during that slow season, everyone keeps saying that BB is making a big mistake. There is a reason why no other big name phones were released during these past 2 months (and none releasing for another month). Market research has proven time after time that releasing a phone in the first 2-3 months of the year is not a smart move.

On the other hand, BB is in a situation where they just need to release this damn phone. Whether this was a strategic move or not, it is being viewed as another delay by most people. Since Thorsten took over, we kept hearing about a new RIM/BB, but this perceived delay is bringing that into question. Is this a new RIM/BB, or is this a case of "some things are never going to change"? Also, there is a good argument that BB could have benefitted from releasing the Z10 without any strong competition facing it for at least a month, maybe even longer. However, once those new devices come out, the Z10 would be considered old. If they release it alongside those other phones, it will be perceived as being "new" for longer.

As you can see, I just don't know what to really think. I believe both sides of my argument make sense and raise valid points. I fall on the side of the coin that says that the carriers/testing-requirements are the ones that are mostly responsible for the delayed US launch, but BB still holds some of the blame/credit. Either way, I ultimately think that a US release date of mid-March will end up being best for BB10s perception in the long-run, but could end up screwing them as well.

One last food for thought....The Z10 is currently being "beta-tested" by a few select countries to fix the kinks and allow developers to release some of the key apps. While I don't think this has anything to do with the "delay," it may help make it work out better in the long run. I still hold my out-dated opinions of Android from when I used the slow and glitchy Droid X back in the day. Initial impressions are lasting ones.

What are your thoughts? Are both opinions valid, or am I off my rocker with either one? Am I missing anything important?

[kbz1960]

I think you're pretty close. My thoughts are the OS still wasn't really ready and carriers want the mainstream apps available before release.

[JWWDUKE]

I think you're pretty close. My thoughts are the OS still wasn't really ready and carriers want the mainstream apps available before release.

Totally off topic, but holy smokes kbz, twenty one thousand posts!!!!! I don't know if I should say congrats, or I'm so sorry for your serious crack addiction!! haha

Back on topic now...

I think part of the problem is the carriers not wanting to sell it the way it is, and without the major apps. I also think that BBRY didn't have the production up to snuff, I mean there are still stores in Canada that are sold out.

I truly believe that if it could have been sold in the U.S. at launch, it would have been. There is a definite reason why it is not being sold there yet.

[TheScionicMan]

Considering that these are huge national carriers, it seems to more more likely that it just takes time for something like this to go through all of the needed steps. These are also businesses that probably have a forward looking business plan, not knee-**** reactions and gut check calls. A couple weeks difference in the product release is not going to make or break their whole business and scrambling isn't part of the normal routine. I don't see these companies waiting for sales numbers that won't come out very soon. I also don't imagine them all standing around pondering news leaks and reading the tea leaves in preparation of a bulk order.

The simplest theory is usually the right one. There's no evidence of any of these other theories taking place, except in people's thoughts...

[kbz1960]

Totally off topic, but holy smokes kbz, twenty one thousand posts!!!!! I don't know if I should say congrats, or I'm so sorry for your serious crack addiction!! haha

Back on topic now...

I think part of the problem is the carriers not wanting to sell it the way it is, and without the major apps. I also think that BBRY didn't have the production up to snuff, I mean there are still stores in Canada that are sold out.

I truly believe that if it could have been sold in the U.S. at launch, it would have been. There is a definite reason why it is not being sold there yet.

LOL I have a lot to share. More like I'm full of it.

[Thunderbuck]

What's the point of this discussion, exactly?

However we might feel about the rollouts (and again, I'll point to the Lumia 920 that launched on September 5 and wasn't actually available until November, and the SG4 which will launch next month but probably won't be available until May), what does the discussion accomplish? Assuming any of us could do anything about it, it's long past the time to be able to change any of this timing.

[ynomrah]

What's the point of this discussion, exactly?

However we might feel about the rollouts (and again, I'll point to the Lumia 920 that launched on September 5 and wasn't actually available until November, and the SG4 which will launch next month but probably won't be available until May), what does the discussion accomplish? Assuming any of us could do anything about it, it's long past the time to be able to change any of this timing.

What's the point of having a forum then? Why should there be a place for people to discuss things anyway? This is the same sort of question that your asking. This is a discussion forum for a reason, and judging by most other threads here, this one is perfectly legitimate.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

[edwinsberry]

I've had these same thoughts and questions since the announcement and although yea we can't change anything about it, I think it does give us glimpses into Blackberry which we all support. I like to know I'm supporting something that will support the products I buy back. And, with all the things going on and honestly feeling slighted not getting the phone in the US and other countries, realistically it all makes sense to me that BB has had to wait on this. Marketing wise I thought it was bad right off, but now I'm not so sure. I want a lot of people to buy the Z10 (or Q10 for that matter since I'm sort of stuck with Sprint) and I want it to have a good name, bugs out, smooth operating system and lots of apps and splash. (Love the Alicia Keys thing). I think we may look back and think the delay allowed for this. Fact is, I think (don't know the stats, who needs facts, joking), a lot of pent up purchase power out there would love to buy something other than the Iphone or Android and just don't have an option yet. Maybe this will give them one. Also, many buyers out there don't keep up with phone releases like Mobile Nations does, so when we finally get the phones, I don't know for sure it matters it wasn't in January. Although, I'm still kind of bummed about it. My wife couldn't wait anymore and jumped ship to Android. Didn't like that. Oh well.

[newcollector]

We USA Crackberrians know and feel the disappointment and frustration of the delay of the Z10's availability in this country. I doubt most cell phone users do. My limited personal experience is this: If you ask people you know, from the doctor to the waitress if they have heard of the new BlackBerry Z10, most have no knowledge, even former BlackBerry users. People's lives are tech infused, but most people are not so tech consumed that they know what is the latest and greatest phone soon to be released. They don't know until the marketing hype. The news of BlackBerry's demise has been trumpeted from every corner or the tech world, that the perception (wrong perception as far as I am concerned) has become reality. It will take some strong marketing, advertising and some great word of mouth communication to make the Z10 a success. Sales people will have to see it as a viable option. The "delay" is really not a delay. We in the USA tend to think we deserve to be first because we are in the USA. My perception is that BlackBerry is doing this right. The later release for the USA gives some time for the finished OS to work out some kinks and for word of mouth from users elsewhere to spread about the real life capabilities of the phone. What is a month and a half in a lifetime? Its not much, and a little patience on our part may yield greater results than we initially anticipate.

[adjdudley21]

I've had these same thoughts and questions since the announcement and although yea we can't change anything about it, I think it does give us glimpses into Blackberry which we all support. I like to know I'm supporting something that will support the products I buy back. And, with all the things going on and honestly feeling slighted not getting the phone in the US and other countries, realistically it all makes sense to me that BB has had to wait on this. Marketing wise I thought it was bad right off, but now I'm not so sure. I want a lot of people to buy the Z10 (or Q10 for that matter since I'm sort of stuck with Sprint) and I want it to have a good name, bugs out, smooth operating system and lots of apps and splash. (Love the Alicia Keys thing). I think we may look back and think the delay allowed for this. Fact is, I think (don't know the stats, who needs facts, joking), a lot of pent up purchase power out there would love to buy something other than the Iphone or Android and just don't have an option yet. Maybe this will give them one. Also, many buyers out there don't keep up with phone releases like Mobile Nations does, so when we finally get the phones, I don't know for sure it matters it wasn't in January. Although, I'm still kind of bummed about it. My wife couldn't wait anymore and jumped ship to Android. Didn't like that. Oh well.

Better Android than Apple... lol

[Thunderbuck]

What's the point of having a forum then? Why should there be a place for people to discuss things anyway? This is the same sort of question that your asking. This is a discussion forum for a reason, and judging by most other threads here, this one is perfectly legitimate.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

Then in response to THIS I'd ask why a new thread, when there are already multiple discussions underway?

Why beat a dead horse?

[web99]

Yep, people are understanding when it took the Samsung Galaxy III over a month to be released in the States last June and the Nokia Lumia 2 months to be released last November. But it's like the sky is falling in the case of Blackberry, even though people have been informed that it will be released sometime in March.

[madm002]

I think you're pretty close. My thoughts are the OS still wasn't really ready and carriers want the mainstream apps available before release.

This

[chrysaurora]

The later release for the USA gives some time for the finished OS to work out some kinks and for word of mouth from users elsewhere to spread about the real life capabilities of the phone. What is a month and a half in a lifetime? Its not much, and a little patience on our part may yield greater results than we initially anticipate.

I don't know if the delay is intentional or unintentional. But I am praying that BlackBerry is using this time by reading these forums and bringing most requested apps, investigating and fixing all reported bugs and adding most-requested features (legacy features from BB7 and completely new feature requests).

Then in response to THIS I'd ask why a new thread, when there are already multiple discussions underway?
Why beat a dead horse?

Oh, come on! Ignore this thread or point to another thread for OP to add to. But don't spoil OP's (discussion) party for no reason

[Emu the Foo]

What's so serious about it? It's not far off. And whether it's because of the OS or cuz the carriers it what it is. Sorry to be so blunt but people know what was said. Sure your points do make senses, somewhat, but hey don't need to be put the way you did. I do agree about it being considered old when it comes out however blackberry needs to market that it doesn't matter compared to android. They need to do what android does because you know they will market the **** out of the specs on the galaxy s4 and the htc one. BlackBerry might not be on top anymore but chevy hasn't stopped making cars because ford and toyota make more

[gregorylkelly]

Then in response to THIS I'd ask why a new thread, when there are already multiple discussions underway?

Why beat a dead horse?

To be honest, I haven't seen a topic presented the way I presented it. So far this thread has had some good opinions and no trolling or insults except by you. I don't think the problem here is the thread, but maybe it's just one of the posters in this thread.

Learn to relax and ignore something if you don't like it.

[gregorylkelly]

What's so serious about it? It's not far off. And whether it's because of the OS or cuz the carriers it what it is. Sorry to be so blunt but people know what was said. Sure your points do make senses, somewhat, but hey don't need to be put the way you did. I do agree about it being considered old when it comes out however blackberry needs to market that it doesn't matter compared to android. They need to do what android does because you know they will market the **** out of the specs on the galaxy s4 and the htc one. BlackBerry might not be on top anymore but chevy hasn't stopped making cars because ford and toyota make more

Hah, the "Serious" in the thread title was to imply that trolls and other instigators weren't welcome. It had nothing to do with being a no smiling, no laughing fun free discussion about the topic at hand. I guess the title sounds like I meant something other than what I did. Sorry about that.

[randall2580]

What's the point of this discussion, exactly?

However we might feel about the rollouts (and again, I'll point to the Lumia 920 that launched on September 5 and wasn't actually available until November, and the SG4 which will launch next month but probably won't be available until May), what does the discussion accomplish? Assuming any of us could do anything about it, it's long past the time to be able to change any of this timing.

While I agree the comparison with MS and Nokia on the WP8 are valid ones, I see no point in including Samsung in this as a sign post that BBRY can follow. Samsung makes about an 8 billion dollars a quarter profit - and that is after insane marketing spending. Until just now it included insane R&D spending as well. Samsung has itself as a must see device anytime they drop one, the "next big thing" has been a very effective marketing campaign here in the USA..

Heck did you see the Super Bowl ad for them. They were advertising nothing really except the Galaxy Name in a 1:30 commercial, about 4 or 5 million dollars to keep the "Galaxy" name in front of folks. I was in Best Buy last weekend - they are putting in "Galaxy" stand/display in the store to showcase those devices, I saw no other manufacturer so prominently displayed here in the US BestBuy stores.

The gap between Jan 30th and the subsequent Super Bowl Commercial (think folks who are not registered here could recount the commercial and it's message if called by a polling firm?) and the eventual launch date here in the States has effectively "sucked the oxygen" out of the room. Look through this forum even the fanguys and gals are getting restless now and some are resigned to "when it comes it comes" oh boy. Yes they will rev back up once we have the countdown back on the CrackBerry masthead again , but BBRY had a chance with the launch here - and they have frittered it away I do not believe that was a wise decision.

I have my own suspicion that cash on hand may be a factor here. Thorsten is on record saying the cash on hand would not go below about 2 billion dollars. I think this was a mistake, as he has now made that a benchmark. Probably a little gun shy after PlayBook and the disaster that commitment to build was, they erred on the side of caution and on this I believe they have told the truth - sales have exceeded even their conservative expectation, and that's not a good thing necessarily.

The other thing that seems eminently true at this point, there may have been great carrier enthusiasm in places like the UK, Canada and the UAE, but you would be hard pressed to prove it to me here in the U.S. If you are an average customer go to the AT&T homepage and try and find any mention of BBRY at all without really looking for it.

[gregorylkelly]

I have my own suspicion that cash on hand may be a factor here. Thorsten is on record saying the cash on hand would not go below about 2 billion dollars. I think this was a mistake, as he has now made that a benchmark. Probably a little gun shy after PlayBook and the disaster that commitment to build was, they erred on the side of caution and on this I believe they have told the truth - sales have exceeded even their conservative expectation, and that's not a good thing necessarily.

If this is true, I believe it is/was a huge mistake. They didn't need the PlayBook to be a raging success for it to have been important (in the development of BB10) and for their balance sheet. RIM should have been more conservative entering the unknown tablet market (at the time it was really only the " iPad market"), especially when they knew for sure that they would be releasing an incomplete device. If they only prepared for about 200,000 to 400,000 sales in the PlayBooks first quarter, then it would not have hurt them early as much as overproducing it hurt. Even if demand was for 5 million a quarter, they could have adjusted and only missed out on potential profit as opposed to overproducing which led to massive losses.

In the case of the Z10 (and to a much lesser degree the Q10), BLackBerry absolutely needs to sell as many as they can as quickly as they can. If they over produced and it under sold, they would be in a horrible (probably company ending) position. However, unlike the PlayBooks scenario, if they have in fact under produced the Z10 and they miss out on potential sales, they still may be in an unrecoverable position. Unlike with the PlayBook, BB10 is the future of this company. They need to make sure they produce enough to meet demand. They can't afford to miss out on potential sales.

The above is all my opinion. If you disagree, I'm open for a good discussion about this....

[DannyAves]

Why beat a dead horse?

In Europe I think they do this before they turn it into lasagna.

[Thunderbuck]

I'll repeat the points I've made elsewhere:

1) "Carrier testing" is not the issue. Before launching in the US, the carriers wanted some "market validation" to see how well-received the Z10 would be in other countries. "Carrier testing" is a nice, opaque excuse that doesn't make it look like there's a lack of faith in BB or the Z10.
2) Apps probably not much of an issue; most of the big names would be ready to roll. Presumably some have been held back in order to add weight to the US launch.
3) There seems to be a deliberate effort to keep US sales out of the next quarterly conference call, possibly out of a desire to make it as much of a "good news" story as possible and to forestall reporting on US sales as long as possible.

[Thunderbuck]

Oh, and anyone who wants to complain about the delay from the launch date to actual availability might want to consider this:

Sony fails to show PlayStation 4 console at PlayStation 4 event | The Verge

[Emu the Foo]

10 characters

[web99]

I'll repeat the points I've made elsewhere:

1) "Carrier testing" is not the issue. Before launching in the US, the carriers wanted some "market validation" to see how well-received the Z10 would be in other countries. "Carrier testing" is a nice, opaque excuse that doesn't make it look like there's a lack of faith in BB or the Z10.
2) Apps probably not much of an issue; most of the big names would be ready to roll. Presumably some have been held back in order to add weight to the US launch.
3) There seems to be a deliberate effort to keep US sales out of the next quarterly conference call, possibly out of a desire to make it as much of a "good news" story as possible and to forestall reporting on US sales as long as possible.

Yep, I do agree with 1) and 3) and I would also add another possible reason

4) Lab testing can only detect certain bugs, while others show up once a large number of people start using the device. With that in mind, especially as the BB10 is a brand new OS, the US carriers wanted too see how what kind of technical issues and shortcomings would come up once the Z10 was released to the general public in BB friendly markets. This would give an opportunity for some of them to be corrected before it was released to a less forgiving US market.

[peter9477]

Has anyone noted yet that there may be an element of "stockpiling" going on, what with the countries where it's launched having a borderline supply issue? Are they perhaps carefully controlling the supply in Canada, the UK, and other places, while ensuring they have a large enough supply built up and ready to go in the US when the time comes?

I'm not suggesting this was the reason for the delay in the US... though wanting to ensure a good supply could have contributed to the carriers' choice of timing. But does it explain a bit why so many stores are constantly sold out, though frequently restocked (to go by other threads), in spite of the supposedly >1M per month that have been built since November?