[belfastdispatcher]

I thought this had to do with OS market share? Who the **** cares who the manufacturer is, it has nothing to do with this.

Because the title reads "Rim's drop in marketshare" not "Rim's OS drop in marketshare"
It's more then misleading, and under company shouldnt say Google not Android? I wasn't aware Android was a company. Manufacturers are important because sooner or later, unless it's already happening, android os adopters will compete against eachother, not only against rim and apple.

[avt123]

Because the title reads "Rim's drop in marketshare" not "Rim's OS drop in marketshare"
It's more then misleading, and under company shouldnt say Google not Android? I wasn't aware Android was a company. Manufacturers are important because sooner or later, unless it's already happening, android os adopters will compete against eachother, not only against rim and apple.

They already are competing against each other. But, the OS is what is being talked about and that is all that matters. This chart doesn't talk about manufacturers. The wording may be misleading, but it is talking about the OS as a whole. Symbian is number one of coarse, and it HAD multiple manufacturers. Now Nokia is the only one using Symbian.

See the thing is, RIM and Apple are their own OS. No one else creates a device using either of their operating systems. So if RIM's OS is seeing a decline, essentially RIM is as well because they are one.

[diapers]

RIM is demonstrating a fear of change, or fear of having to adapt. Untimely adaptation eventually leads to downfall

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

RIM is internally struggling with either sticking to enterprise or making inroads into the average consumer market. Most people who got a storm upgraded to the storm2 but did not upgrade to the 9800. Why is that? Probably has something to do with being abandoned on a crappy phone with crappy os and the only choice to dish out more cash for a not so great upgrade.. considering how strong the competition is I'm not surprised one bit they lost all those storm series users (me included when my new phone arrives).

[Rickroller]

14% of the market this quarter as opposed to 20% of the market last year. With the release of 49.00 Android phones like the LG optimus and soon to follow other models, Rims market share will undoubtedly continue to decline.

I don't see any future outcome other than android dominating the market the same way that Windows dominates the PC market. I think RIM will survive and at least hold it's third place position.

Blackberry is a good product but it is one that appeals to people who make their purchasing decisions based on their needs rather than their wants. and see their phone as a tool rather than a toy.

I agree 100% with this statement. Blackberry has a ton of loyal users, but even they are clamoring for phones to compete with Android and iPHone. The problem lies with the manufacturing. Even if RIM does release the S3 that has specs on par or slightly above Android and iPhone..it will bring some back..but ONE phone won't regain a bunch of lost customers. The fact that Android has as many manufacturers that they do..each releasing as many different phones as they do..means more and more Android phones that can satisfy customers wants AND needs. RIM simply can't keep up IMO. They are ONE vs MANY..and even Chuck Norris would struggle against that

[lnichols]

I agree 100% with this statement. Blackberry has a ton of loyal users, but even they are clamoring for phones to compete with Android and iPHone. The problem lies with the manufacturing. Even if RIM does release the S3 that has specs on par or slightly above Android and iPhone..it will bring some back..but ONE phone won't regain a bunch of lost customers. The fact that Android has as many manufacturers that they do..each releasing as many different phones as they do..means more and more Android phones that can satisfy customers wants AND needs. RIM simply can't keep up IMO. They are ONE vs MANY..and even Chuck Norris would struggle against that

The other issue is that if this Storm3 does come out, and only gets released on Verizon in the US, then it will be a bad business move. Someone can get a Galaxy Android, or a choice of various manufacturers Androids on any carrier in the US right now. This is why the Android OS has taken off. Apple iOS is only on AT&T in the US and their potential growth is slowed because of it. People are buying Androids because they are iPhone "like" (touch, nice screen, apps, etc) and they are available on their carrier. Torch only released on AT&T in US and they aren't selling a lot of them. Storm1 and 2 only on Verizon, and sales were never stellar. Most phone users aren't going to change service providers just for a phone, and most of the ones that will have already left to do so for iPhones. If RIM only releases a great phone on one carrier in the US then it is a poor business move. Their best selling devices (i.e. Curve line) were/are available on all carriers. Just look through the forums at all the people who wanted Storms, or Torches, or even lately the Style, on their carrier. That's a lot a potential sales lost with people wanting to use their upgrades with their carrier and can't because RIM isn't releasing on their provider. Just build your phones in CDMA and GSM versions and offer them to carriers and the subscribers will demand the carrier get the phone.

[lssanjose]

I don't know if you guys brought it up before, but I kept thinking about this for a few days: What potential effects do you all see if RIM, somehow, ports its OS to other manufacturers?

I say this because of the issue with proprietary business models. Granted, Mac use has been up substantially since the release of OS X (that was, and still is, the only reason why I respect macs), one just has to look at the landscape PCs have taken up over the last 20 years. Windows is ported over to various manufacturers, as opposed to Apple's sole ownership of its OS. This enabled consumers, and most importantly, businesses, cheap, and effective solutions.

This said, if RIM was to try this out, I think they could probably generate more revenue. Then again, it would force a change in business model. In a way, the BlackBerry branding wouldn't have the strength it's had over the years. But, overall, it would force RIM to make a better device than a third-party solution.

[stolzyboy]

I don't know if anyone should really be concerned unless you own shares in any of these companies.

Even if the newest, best phones hit the market tomorrow, it still comes down to personal preference: what you want and what works best for you. I've played with the Android phones that Verizon has (Droid, Droid X, Droid Eris, Droid Incredible) and the iPhones that AT&T had (iPhone 4G, iPhone 3GS). I'm still happy with my blackberry because I enjoy the whole user experience better.

Summary: What appears to be the best phone may not be the best phone for you. The way mobile technology moves, your phone is going to be surpassed in less than 6 months anyway. Stay along for the ride and see what comes out next.

My Droid X kicks the s1ht out of my Storm 2 in all ways!!!! And, I LOVED both of my Storms, had the 1 and the 2. I also had a Tour for work. The Android OS is leaps and bounds better than BB. I wish it wasn't because I love BB and the community, which is why I hang around here and still keep up with crackberry.

RIM better get it's s1ht together or it'll die a slow painful death. I do love their Playbook with the QNX OS, that looks promising and if they can pull that off with their phones and if it work as good as it looks, that may be a start, but the hurt has already been done, it will be a hard fight to get back.

stolzyoby

[Rickroller]

My Droid X kicks the s1ht out of my Storm 2 in all ways!!!! And, I LOVED both of my Storms, had the 1 and the 2. I also had a Tour for work. The Android OS is leaps and bounds better than BB. I wish it wasn't because I love BB and the community, which is why I hang around here and still keep up with crackberry.

RIM better get it's s1ht together or it'll die a slow painful death. I do love their Playbook with the QNX OS, that looks promising and if they can pull that off with their phones and if it work as good as it looks, that may be a start, but the hurt has already been done, it will be a hard fight to get back.

stolzyoby

Yea..but isn't the Droid X a relatively new release? (Correct me if i'm wrong) That's like trying to compare the iPhone 2 with the iPhone 4..the new one is leaps and bounds better than the old one. The S1 was made to compete with the original iPhone..and the S2 was a small upgrade..i don't believe it was meant to compete with Android on any level..because a year ago Android was still relatively new. Of course they're everywhere now..and only gaining in popularity because as someone pointed out..they are accessible across many different carriers.

I don't think RIM can keep up..nor do I think they have to. They are a business first and foremost..and they are globally expanding, continually generating revenue..and carving their niche in the world. Are they the fastest, most powerful phones on the planet? Of course not, but that doesnt mean people don't like them or won't buy them..because they meet a need/want that some people love..no matter if there is "better" out there or not. I just don't think RIM can keep up with ALL the different phone manufacters it's up against with Android, but as long as they can keep expanding globally and offering cheap phones to consumers..you won't see them DIE..as many people predict.

[lssanjose]

I was going to say the same thing, Rick Roller. The comparison doesn't seem fair. What I can say, my Droid (which is running a low voltage 800MHz Kernel) does beat the pants out of the storm 2. But, that's because the OS puts the device in the position to succeed.

Open source does have its perks, but it also has its downfalls. But, because it's open in nature, people aren't stuck for the most part.

[stuaw11]

I think it's fair. The Storm 2 was released October 2009, the original Droid (with better specs) that same month with a 5mp camera. So it's not like RIM didn'nt know 5mp cameras were coming then.

Processor-wise, the LG Expo on ATT with a 1ghz Snapdragon came 1 month after the Storm 2 release. So its not like RIM didn't know 1ghz processors were right there, plus the Toshiba G01 with 1ghz was out for a while before.

It's not like RIM didn't know they needed more RAM. Its been a complaint for a long time since OS5 was introduced. It shouldnt have taken them almost a year to get a decent amount of RAM in their phones.'

They're STILL releasing devices to date with HVGA screens (even the Torch). Why? HVGA was 2008/2009. VGA is a bare minimum resolution on a high end smartphone today.

What it comes down to IMO is RIM is and was complacent since they were still seeing sales and decided no innovation needed to be done. The problem with that logic is before 3 years ago they had little competition besides Palm and a little from MS; no iphone and no Android. Only recently have they finally realized (shown by OSX and the Playbook) that if theyre complacent with their OS and hardware that they will fall far behind.

[Rickroller]

I think it's fair. The Storm 2 was released October 2009, the original Droid (with better specs) that same month with a 5mp camera. So it's not like RIM didn'nt know 5mp cameras were coming then.

Processor-wise, the LG Expo on ATT with a 1ghz Snapdragon came 1 month after the Storm 2 release. So its not like RIM didn't know 1ghz processors were right there, plus the Toshiba G01 with 1ghz was out for a while before.

It's not like RIM didn't know they needed more RAM. Its been a complaint for a long time since OS5 was introduced. It shouldnt have taken them almost a year to get a decent amount of RAM in their phones.

What it comes down to IMO is RIM is and was complacent since they were still seeing sales and decided no innovation needed to be done. The problem with that logic is before 3 years ago they had little competition besides Palm and a little from MS; no iphone and no Android. Only recently have they finally realized (shown by OSX and the Playbook) that if theyre complacent with their OS and hardware that they will fall far behind.

From everything I've heard about RIM and their purchasing practices..it sounds like they purchase large amounts of hardware at one time, and then build around that hardware. If that's the case, then even though 1Ghz processors were coming out, RIM already had a large inventory of processors to use. From a business standpoint, if you don't use up your inventory before buying more..then you take a loss. Perhaps they figured that the cellphone landscape wouldnt shape up the way it did. Perhaps they thought Android OS might fail..which it very well might have if it wasn't open source and had the level of people in there tweaking it like they have.

In any case, I think they are definately rethinking things now..but for many..it's too late. They've tasted the Android kool-aid and like what it has to offer. And as I said..even if RIM does produce 1-2 top of the line phones every year..they are competing with all the other manufacturers who will be producing probably 10-20 new models a year (collectively). I can't see RIM ever dying..but they definately aren't (and won't be) the big kid on the block anymore. It's like I say..no matter how tough you are..there will always be someone tougher to come along.

[lssanjose]

From everything I've heard about RIM and their purchasing practices..it sounds like they purchase large amounts of hardware at one time, and then build around that hardware.

Reminds me of the company I used to work for. Before I left it, we had an arse load of inventory just sitting in the warehouse. Just go to Dance Dance Revolution for Wii, PS2, PS3, Xbox 360, & PC and check out flingo; and you'd imagine how much we have left in stock. It really depends on a company's goals. I know my bosses still want to make a profit, so they're really reluctant to just purge dead weight inventory. It seems like RIM is trying to go with the same move. It's totally understandable because an investment was made. But, as the big boss wants, he wanted to move the surplus inventory, even at a loss.

Another co-worker of mine did mention the effects of excessive inventory, and how it'd affect warehouse costs. Because of dead weight, and the fact you're pulling in new items at a rapid rate, housing fees will end up catching up, and biting the back side.

It makes you wonder, what decision RIM will ultimately make. I don't know how business friendly the climate is in Canada, where RIM is supposedly based.

[belfastdispatcher]

RIM is internally struggling with either sticking to enterprise or making inroads into the average consumer market. Most people who got a storm upgraded to the storm2 but did not upgrade to the 9800. Why is that? Probably has something to do with being abandoned on a crappy phone with crappy os and the only choice to dish out more cash for a not so great upgrade.. considering how strong the competition is I'm not surprised one bit they lost all those storm series users (me included when my new phone arrives).

Wrong, Storm2 haven't upgraded to Torch yet because even if they bought their Storm2 when it first came out a year ago, they would still have one year left out of their 2 year contract. This is exactly my situation. Standard contract length these days is 2 years.

[stuaw11]

From everything I've heard about RIM and their purchasing practices..it sounds like they purchase large amounts of hardware at one time, and then build around that hardware. If that's the case, then even though 1Ghz processors were coming out, RIM already had a large inventory of processors to use. From a business standpoint, if you don't use up your inventory before buying more..then you take a loss. Perhaps they figured that the cellphone landscape wouldnt shape up the way it did. Perhaps they thought Android OS might fail..which it very well might have if it wasn't open source and had the level of people in there tweaking it like they have.

In any case, I think they are definately rethinking things now..but for many..it's too late. They've tasted the Android kool-aid and like what it has to offer. And as I said..even if RIM does produce 1-2 top of the line phones every year..they are competing with all the other manufacturers who will be producing probably 10-20 new models a year (collectively). I can't see RIM ever dying..but they definately aren't (and won't be) the big kid on the block anymore. It's like I say..no matter how tough you are..there will always be someone tougher to come along.

Well then again, that's RIM's own problem, not the consumer, that they rehash hardware in multiple models and generations.

That's a business model problem and still of RIM's own doing. I can't name one other manufacturer who does this over so many models and generations of devices. So it's obviously a RIM mentality issue they need to solve quickly.

[lssanjose]

I forgot the name of the corporate email program by Verizon and another company (I think it's Good, something, something) pans out, businesses will slowly trickle away from BlackBerry. Key word being slowly, because it most businesses like continuity in certain spaces.

[stuaw11]

True but sometimes continuity in specs leads to downfall.

Look at Palm for one, at one point they were dominant on top with RIM for smartphones. But they kept rehashing the same hardware over and over again never progressing further. The screen went from 240x240 to 320x320, but other phones past that quickly. Same older processors, same form factor basically, and the OS didn't change much (Palm OS especially since they cant be blamed for MS's slow upgrades).

It sounds vastly similar to RIM right now, rehashing the same hardware over and over basically with one or 2 tiny improvements, OS hasnt drastically improved in years. All while competition is passing them by.

Now of course RIM is different because they have a good niche following in corporate and secure facilities, so they won't die like Palm did quickly. But this could be a sign of RIM beginning to fall like Palm did, only at a slower rate if they continue the same path of complacency Palm followed.

[belfastdispatcher]

True but sometimes continuity in specs leads to downfall.

Look at Palm for one, at one point they were dominant on top with RIM for smartphones. But they kept rehashing the same hardware over and over again never progressing further. The screen went from 240x240 to 320x320, but other phones past that quickly. Same older processors, same form factor basically, and the OS didn't change much (Palm OS especially since they cant be blamed for MS's slow upgrades).

It sounds vastly similar to RIM right now, rehashing the same hardware over and over basically with one or 2 tiny improvements, OS hasnt drastically improved in years. All while competition is passing them by.

Now of course RIM is different because they have a good niche following in corporate and secure facilities, so they won't die like Palm did quickly. But this could be a sign of RIM beginning to fall like Palm did, only at a slower rate if they continue the same path of complacency Palm followed.

I have a feeling Palm started to go when they stopped supporting Rim's blackberry connect software therefore excluding them from bes and bis push email. A bit like Nokia business phones too, starting with the Nokia E71 they didn't allow it anymore.

[lssanjose]

I realized how cheap the components Palm used were when my speaker stopped working after my mic jack was messed with. I'd have to hook it up to a bluetooth to get any call working on my 700WX. I had a Palm PDA where the screen cracked - prior, it was showing color anomalies. At the time, I thought Palm was THE name for PDAs, and that mindset drove my 700WX purchase in '07. Oh, how little I knew then.

[Rickroller]

True but sometimes continuity in specs leads to downfall.

Look at Palm for one, at one point they were dominant on top with RIM for smartphones. But they kept rehashing the same hardware over and over again never progressing further. The screen went from 240x240 to 320x320, but other phones past that quickly. Same older processors, same form factor basically, and the OS didn't change much (Palm OS especially since they cant be blamed for MS's slow upgrades).

It sounds vastly similar to RIM right now, rehashing the same hardware over and over basically with one or 2 tiny improvements, OS hasnt drastically improved in years. All while competition is passing them by.

Now of course RIM is different because they have a good niche following in corporate and secure facilities, so they won't die like Palm did quickly. But this could be a sign of RIM beginning to fall like Palm did, only at a slower rate if they continue the same path of complacency Palm followed.

Lol..you make it sound like RIM's been doing this for a decade while every other phone manufacturer has been continually surpassing them. It's only been about 2 years since the Storm was released..which was RIM's attempt into the touchscreen market. Before that..Android wasn't even a player in the game. It's only been in the last year or so where things have really heated up..as is evident by the Q3 market share report from '09 to '10. So to sound like this has been RIM's problem for many many years isn't accurate.

It's up to RIM to decide whether they even want to be the number 1 kid on the block..if so, then yes..they need to drastically reshape their business model. But my guess is..that they will continue to put out low-midrange devices with perhaps 1 or 2 models that are somewhat on par with high end models..all the while continuing to globally expand into countries and marketshares that don't even know what Android is..and continuing to make profit. Because bottom line is..it's all about the profit..not whether you or I consider them to be #1 or #4.

[Danf]

It's up to RIM to decide whether they even want to be the number 1 kid on the block..if so, then yes..they need to drastically reshape their business model. But my guess is..that they will continue to put out low-midrange devices with perhaps 1 or 2 models that are somewhat on par with high end models..all the while continuing to globally expand into countries and marketshares that don't even know what Android is..and continuing to make profit. Because bottom line is..it's all about the profit..not whether you or I consider them to be #1 or #4.
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Absolutely, Rim cannot survive trying to cater to the diehard high end phone enthusiast. who are notoriously fickle and change their phones as often as they change their underwear.

the curve 9330 and the style 9760 are a clear sign that Rim is going after the entry level smart phone market. There is a huge section of phone users that have yet to purchase their first smart phone. To them the 9330 is affordable and nothing short of amazing.

Another factor will be who is the beneficiary of win mobile abandoning their business base. The new WinMo 7 is clearly targeting the 20 something media centric crowd that lives on facebook, myspace, twitter, and youtube, but is unlikely to make any headway against android.

[WillieLee]

They already are competing against each other. But, the OS is what is being talked about and that is all that matters. This chart doesn't talk about manufacturers. The wording may be misleading, but it is talking about the OS as a whole. Symbian is number one of coarse, and it HAD multiple manufacturers. Now Nokia is the only one using Symbian.

See the thing is, RIM and Apple are their own OS. No one else creates a device using either of their operating systems. So if RIM's OS is seeing a decline, essentially RIM is as well because they are one.

But RIM isn't seeing a decline. They are growing over 30% per year. These charts are misleading and rather meaningless when it comes to the health of the companies involved.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[grahamf]

But RIM isn't seeing a decline. They are growing over 30% per year. These charts are misleading and rather meaningless when it comes to the health of the companies involved.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Not to mention that they aren't in stasis, as most of the posters try to make us believe.
Before the first storm was in development, they have been working on QNX and making the next generation devices. However, they knew that the QNX devices wouldn't be ready for years, so they had essentially slapped together stopgaps to stay relevant until they can bring out the QNX devices in 2011. Admittedly, they have put little effort in some of the stopgap devices, but this will all be over with by the end of next year.

[lssanjose]

I can only hope so, for competition's sake. The last thing I need is some revelatory pronouncement by one Steve F. Jobs.

[Danf]

I can only hope so, for competition's sake. The last thing I need is some revelatory pronouncement by one Steve F. Jobs.

What, you don't want an iBerry?

[sleepngbear]

But RIM isn't seeing a decline. They are growing over 30% per year. These charts are misleading and rather meaningless when it comes to the health of the companies involved.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

True, RIM's sales are growing, but four other hardware manufacturers are growing faster. On Wall St, it's all about growth potential and who's got more of it. It's a huge market right now, with a lot of people moving up from 'dumb' phones to smart phones, and all these companies are scrambling to grab as many of them as they can. What's hurting RIM is falling market share, and that's due at least in part to so many new smart phone owners making the jump to the 'cool' stuff. iPhone and Androids have the perception of being cool, while BB still has that business-user stigma.

The Torch was a big step in breaking out of that image, but by the spec sheet alone, it really wasn't quite enough, and the BB brand as a whole still has a long way to go there. I'm not complaining myself -- the Torch is everything I could want in a phone. But it and other BB models are obviously not drawing new smart phone customers as fast as the competition, nor is it stealing many existing customers away from them. Yet.