[Economist101]

What else are we going to compare them to from RIM? Let me guess, the older models... And if you look at the older models, the upgrades are extremely minor.

Remember that the reason given for the 11-month gap in phone releases was that the phones RIM originally intended to release were deemed to be below market expectations. As a result, RIM decided to scrap them in lieu of more significant upgrades, a decision which led to the 11-month gap.

[avt123]

Remember that the reason given for the 11-month gap in phone releases was that the phones RIM originally intended to release were deemed to be below market expectations. As a result, RIM decided to scrap them in lieu of more significant upgrades, a decision which led to the 11-month gap.

Exactly. Even those ones were labeled under par. The market made this claim before they even had the chance to be created. So my point stands. The only ones to compare them with are the models previous to OS 7 devices.

[ssbtech]

The Torch is a Bold with a slide out keyboard and a Storm screen. The Torch uses the same exact hardware as the Bold of old (not talking about new OS 7 Torch). The Torch uses the same exact screen as the Storm.

And what exactly is the problem with that? The screen is twice as big as the bold it is based off of yet the whole phone retains a fairly compact size. In fact, it was the evolution from the Bold to the Torch that sold me on RIM and why I own a Torch and a PlayBook.

The Storm 1 and 2 are the same exact device with minor upgrades. The Storm 2 has a better screen (surepress works much better) and I believe a camera upgrade as well as WiFi.

That almost sums up the upgrades between iPhone 3 and 4...

The new Torch is NOT a new form factor. It is a Storm without surepress. You call that new? It is just rebranded. That is NOT a new form factor. How can you say it is? You have to be blind or never seen a Storm before.

Look at any number of the Samsung/Motorola/LG phones.. they all look the same. They're bulky oversized bricks with stupid oversized screens. There's very little "form factor" evolution with other phones.

Who else has a good slider phone like the Torch?

The only new form factor of OS 7 devices is the 9900. It provides the typical experience of a QWERTY BB like the standard Bold, with the addition to a touchscreen. That is new. No other BB before this had this form. Same goes for the 9800 and 9500. Those were new forms.

And if you go back to what you quoted me on, I wasn't talking about form factor. I was talking about hardware. Totally different category. I said the Torch and Storm were exceptions. Once again, I was talking abou the Bold line, the flagship line.

[/QUOTE]

The Bold is the flagship phone? That's news to me.

And now that the Bold has had it's guts upgraded, are you happy?

[avt123]

And what exactly is the problem with that? The screen is twice as big as the bold it is based off of yet the whole phone retains a fairly compact size. In fact, it was the evolution from the Bold to the Torch that sold me on RIM and why I own a Torch and a PlayBook.

It is recycled into a different form. I never said it was a problem for you, but for others it is. The Torch 9800 is an underpowered device. Creating a brand new form factor and using the guts of an already 3 year old device is just not smart. The Bold 9000 was powerful for it's time, not for the 9800s time.

The resolution on the Torch compared to other devices at the time was garbage. You compare the Torch next to an iPhone 4, original Droid and any HTC Android device released around the same time and it looks horrible. It may not to you, and the resolution may be fine to you, but in comparison to the competition, it is not. The screen at that time was already 2 years old (it started on the 9500).

That almost sums up the upgrades between iPhone 3 and 4...

Does it? You might want to go look at a spec sheet friend. The memory doubled. The processing speed doubled. Newer WiFi standards. New exterior design. The screen resolution doubled.

Look at any number of the Samsung/Motorola/LG phones.. they all look the same. They're bulky oversized bricks with stupid oversized screens. There's very little "form factor" evolution with other phones.

Once again, form factor is not all that matters in a smartphones evolution. Many of these devices have had significant hardware (internal) upgrades.

Also, oversized is your opinion. That doesn't mean the device isn't evolving. Look at the Galaxy S 2 compared to the SGS 1. Dual core, more memory, SAMOLED +, thinner design etc..

That's a great upgrade from the one, just like the 9900 is a great upgrade from the 9780, the Torch to the new Torch and the Storm to the new Torch (Storm style).

Who else has a good slider phone like the Torch?

There are plenty of other good sliders. I loved my Droid. HTC makes several as well. They are horizontal sliders though, not vertical.

The Bold is the flagship phone? That's news to me.

Really? Wow. If you thought the Torch was the flagship, you are wrong.

The Bold is the form factor known best from RIM. It is top of the line. Meaning you can see the difference between the Bold and Curve. The Curve is the midrange device.

The Torch is just as powerful as the Bold, but it is not their flagship.

And now that the Bold has had it's guts upgraded, are you happy?

Yea, I am. It actually brings RIM back into the competition some what, even though I do not like OS 7. Although, I wanted the 9900 back in 2009. My 9000 was my second favorite smartphone ever. We were calling for this form factor back then.

[Economist101]

The Bold is the flagship phone? That's news to me.

The Bold is RIM's flagship phone.

[Chrisy]

I guess if you call the "upgrades" from say the Storm 1 to the Storm 2 "constantly evolving" then I might agree with you. Although I don't think its any large secret that BB's have constantly recycled old hardware with minor improvements into "new" phones. That was their business model for years.. and the reason they are about as relevant as the Delorian is nowadays.

Don't forget the "upgrade" from 9630 to 9650. Added WiFi and Touchpad. That's it..for $200 and two years more contract. I just couldn't do it.

I wish the 9930 or Torch were out 8 months ago. Then I would have been happy with RIM.

[Rickroller]

Don't forget the "upgrade" from 9630 to 9650. Added WiFi and Touchpad. That's it..for $200 and two years more contract. I just couldn't do it.

I wish the 9930 or Torch were out 8 months ago. Then I would have been happy with RIM.

Yup..that's how RIM rolls. And why they're in the current situation they're in.

Its funny how when I first got the Storm way back when..what I really wanted was a Bold with a touchscreen..and actually thought that the Tour was gonna be that device. Here we are almost 3 years later and RIM has has finally released that device I craved back then. Now? No thanks..

[ssbtech]

The resolution on the Torch compared to other devices at the time was garbage. You compare the Torch next to an iPhone 4, original Droid and any HTC Android device released around the same time and it looks horrible. It may not to you, and the resolution may be fine to you, but in comparison to the competition, it is not. The screen at that time was already 2 years old (it started on the 9500).

Perhaps I'm just ********, but the screen looks just fine on my Torch 9800. And for all this talk of "HD video" the other makes like to throw around, remember that none of them actually have HD screens.

Does it? You might want to go look at a spec sheet friend. The memory doubled. The processing speed doubled. Newer WiFi standards. New exterior design. The screen resolution doubled.

Funny how even Apple doesn't make a big fuss about CPU speed and RAM...
Apple - iPhone - Compare iPhone 4 and iPhone 3GS

Once again, form factor is not all that matters in a smartphones evolution. Many of these devices have had significant hardware (internal) upgrades.

Also, oversized is your opinion. That doesn't mean the device isn't evolving. Look at the Galaxy S 2 compared to the SGS 1. Dual core, more memory, SAMOLED +, thinner design etc..

The galaxy S2 (and any other phone with a 4.3" screen) is just too damn big to carry comfortably in a pocket, unless you wear those stupid cargo pants with massive pockets. Just the screen on the S2 is almost the same size as my entire Torch. Then you have to add the bezel, etc.. You can't tell me that the Torch isn't a nice tidy form factor.

There are plenty of other good sliders. I loved my Droid. HTC makes several as well. They are horizontal sliders though, not vertical.

Like I said, show me a good vertical slider phone - RIM pretty much has the market cornered on that one.

Really? Wow. If you thought the Torch was the flagship, you are wrong.

The Bold is the form factor known best from RIM. It is top of the line. Meaning you can see the difference between the Bold and Curve. The Curve is the midrange device.

I'm not sure how "flagship" and "midrange" are defined in the RIM world. To me, flagship would be the phone with the most features - and the Torch 98xx has the Bold beat there. If the Curve is the midrange device that puts the Torch 98xx as their low-end, entry-level device? Hardly...

[avt123]

Perhaps I'm just ********, but the screen looks just fine on my Torch 9800. And for all this talk of "HD video" the other makes like to throw around, remember that none of them actually have HD screens.

I never said the Torch screen wasn't "fine". I said that when you look at it next to the other devices that were priced similarly you can easily see the difference in quality. The screen looks like garbage compared to the Retina display, SAMOLED and qHD displays. The new Torchs screen is much nicer.

Funny how even Apple doesn't make a big fuss about CPU speed and RAM...
Apple - iPhone - Compare iPhone 4 and iPhone 3GS

When the iPhone 4 first came out, those two things were mentioned on the website. Don't know why it isn't anymore. It use to talk about the A4 being in the iPhone 4.

The galaxy S2 (and any other phone with a 4.3" screen) is just too damn big to carry comfortably in a pocket, unless you wear those stupid cargo pants with massive pockets. Just the screen on the S2 is almost the same size as my entire Torch. Then you have to add the bezel, etc.. You can't tell me that the Torch isn't a nice tidy form factor.

Maybe for you is is too big. I had no problem fitting my Droid X in my front pocket. Normal jeans as well. I'm 5'10 and am "athletic" build. No problems here.

I never said the Torch wasn't nice and small. It is a nice compact form.

Like I said, show me a good vertical slider phone - RIM pretty much has the market cornered on that one.

Yep they do have that one cornered. Good for them. But it doesn't really seem like the vertical slider market is that big. Definitely nice to have the option though.

I'm not sure how "flagship" and "midrange" are defined in the RIM world. To me, flagship would be the phone with the most features - and the Torch 98xx has the Bold beat there. If the Curve is the midrange device that puts the Torch 98xx as their low-end, entry-level device? Hardly...

The Bold is flagship.

Also, your logic (in the last sentence) is wrong. I was talking about front facing QWERTY device being what RIM is known for. The Curve is the mid-low range device in this category and the Bold is flagship. The Torch is in a different category, but the Bold is still the flagship device from RIM. It has been this way since the 9000.

[o4liberty]

This type of press hurts any company and shows to investors that there are issues at RIM. BUT one persons thinking isn't always right. The one thing rim needs to do is get up with the other platforms as far as device performance goes.

[GeorgeRussos]

What these "analysts" fail to recognise, is the fact that there are other markets than the US one, too.
BlackBerry phones are used here in Europe in SUCH A BIG EXTENT. Just because half the US population are fashion victims and use the iPhone just to take photos with the front facing camera (and I'm NOT hating on the iPhone here) doesn't mean we are like that, too. I'm not saying that there ARE Americans that KNOW what they use their BlackBerry phones for, like the users here on CrackBerry, but apparently, according to these "analysts" these advanced users are stupid, because they support a company that will be dead by 2013 and, to say such thing, is stupid. One, of course, could hope that they would quit talking bad about RIM, but the evidence so far suggests that that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness.

[ssbtech]

I actually think RIM needs to greatly improve their desktop software. The desktop/device sync thing is one thing Apple has really done well.

I really don't need to spend more for a phone with twice the power and RAM than I need.

It's a phone for heaven's sake, not a computer.

[Rickroller]

What these "analysts" fail to recognise, is the fact that there are other markets than the US one, too.
BlackBerry phones are used here in Europe in SUCH A BIG EXTENT. Just because half the US population are fashion victims and use the iPhone just to take photos with the front facing camera (and I'm NOT hating on the iPhone here) doesn't mean we are like that, too. I'm not saying that there ARE Americans that KNOW what they use their BlackBerry phones for, like the users here on CrackBerry, but apparently, according to these "analysts" these advanced users are stupid, because they support a company that will be dead by 2013 and, to say such thing, is stupid. One, of course, could hope that they would quit talking bad about RIM, but the evidence so far suggests that that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness.

We're already seeing Android beginning to make inroads in European markets..and once iphone releases a cheaper model..I suspect these "loyal" european markets will follow suit with the rest of North America..

I actually think RIM needs to greatly improve their desktop software. The desktop/device sync thing is one thing Apple has really done well.

I really don't need to spend more for a phone with twice the power and RAM than I need.

It's a phone for heaven's sake, not a computer.

Alot of people actually like having a "computer" in their pockets..including me. If I only wanted a phone I would've just bought a flip..

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

What these "analysts" fail to recognise, is the fact that there are other markets than the US one, too.
BlackBerry phones are used here in Europe in SUCH A BIG EXTENT. Just because half the US population are fashion victims and use the iPhone just to take photos with the front facing camera (and I'm NOT hating on the iPhone here) doesn't mean we are like that, too. I'm not saying that there ARE Americans that KNOW what they use their BlackBerry phones for, like the users here on CrackBerry, but apparently, according to these "analysts" these advanced users are stupid, because they support a company that will be dead by 2013 and, to say such thing, is stupid. One, of course, could hope that they would quit talking bad about RIM, but the evidence so far suggests that that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness.

Those "analysts" do recognize that RIM is loosing market share outside of North America... and they see that cheaper handsets from other manufactures and government concerns about security being a big question that could affect future growth in those markets.

Blackberry's are not going anywhere... but RIM as the company we know today is in trouble and may not make it .

[katiepea]

I actually think RIM needs to greatly improve their desktop software. The desktop/device sync thing is one thing Apple has really done well.

I really don't need to spend more for a phone with twice the power and RAM than I need.

It's a phone for heaven's sake, not a computer.

Spend more? Rims phones are the most expensive on the market. For many people the phone IS a computer, a lot of people do full on spreadsheet work on their phone and resolution matters. The resolution on the first torch was bad, I owned one, it was knocked in almost every review, it wasn't even close to what was a market standard, and just as much $. Nobody is going to tell you not to love blackberry. But owning one, don't you at least want them to TRY to give you the most for your money? Because for years they've been selling phones nowhere close to competitive are higher prices or equal prices. You seem to consistently imply everything you don't have is junk you don't need, in that case please never upgrade the phone again. In fact why did you get a torch?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Tre Lawrence]

It just occurred to me... people complain about Mike and Jim, but it could be worse. RIM could be run by some of the posters here. Now that would be cause for alarm.

[Tre Lawrence]

You seem to consistently imply everything you don't have is junk you don't need, in that case please never upgrade the phone again. In fact why did you get a torch?

Exactly... LOL.

[ssbtech]

Spend more? Rims phones are the most expensive on the market.

Bell Canada:

Samsung Galaxy S2 - $169.95
HTC Sensation 4G (sounds like a sex toy) - $99.95
Motorola XT860 - $99.95

BlackBerry Bold 9900 4G - $169.95
BlackBerry Torch 9810 - $149.95
BlackBerry Curve 9360 - $49.95


I'd say they're pretty well priced.

The resolution on the first torch was bad, I owned one

I own one too and it suits me just fine. I can't think of any reason I'd want higher res. Higher res on a 3" screen just makes everything hard to read.

Nobody is going to tell you not to love blackberry. But owning one, don't you at least want them to TRY to give you the most for your money?

The Torch does everything I need and want it to do. $199 was a perfectly fair price for everything it is capable of doing. They're down to $99 now that the 9810 is out which makes it an even better deal.

Because for years they've been selling phones nowhere close to competitive are higher prices or equal prices. You seem to consistently imply everything you don't have is junk you don't need, in that case please never upgrade the phone again. In fact why did you get a torch?

Presently I don't see a need to upgrade my phone, and it's not because BlackBerry doesn't offer anything revolutionary as you keep complaining about. I will never buy an Apple product and I can't stand the Android interface. Right now I have the best phone for my needs. I don't buy into all this "oh this one has a faster CPU and more RAM" crap.

2GHz dual core is not something I need to make phone calls.


Speaking of Android - every Android tablet I have used is a confusing, laggy mess. The interface is never smooth like the PlayBook, there are so many widgets and "floating windows" all over the place you never know where anything is.

[avt123]

I own one too and it suits me just fine. I can't think of any reason I'd want higher res. Higher res on a 3" screen just makes everything hard to read.

Wow I have the exact opposite reaction to high res screens. If anything, text is a lot easier for me to read. I haven't heard many people having complaints about high res screens so far. Only some of the qHD ones and some things on SAMOLED+ screen can look a little too saturated.

[katiepea]

Bell Canada:

Samsung Galaxy S2 - $169.95
HTC Sensation 4G (sounds like a sex toy) - $99.95
Motorola XT860 - $99.95

BlackBerry Bold 9900 4G - $169.95
BlackBerry Torch 9810 - $149.95
BlackBerry Curve 9360 - $49.95


I'd say they're pretty well priced.




I own one too and it suits me just fine. I can't think of any reason I'd want higher res. Higher res on a 3" screen just makes everything hard to read.




The Torch does everything I need and want it to do. $199 was a perfectly fair price for everything it is capable of doing. They're down to $99 now that the 9810 is out which makes it an even better deal.



Presently I don't see a need to upgrade my phone, and it's not because BlackBerry doesn't offer anything revolutionary as you keep complaining about. I will never buy an Apple product and I can't stand the Android interface. Right now I have the best phone for my needs. I don't buy into all this "oh this one has a faster CPU and more RAM" crap.

2GHz dual core is not something I need to make phone calls.


Speaking of Android - every Android tablet I have used is a confusing, laggy mess. The interface is never smooth like the PlayBook, there are so many widgets and "floating windows" all over the place you never know where anything is.

At this point what you say is so absurd I can't even bring myself to believe you're even being serious. The 9900 is $100 more than phones phenomenally better than it, matter of opinion? Sure

Its stunning that you keep saying nuh uh its fine regarding the resolution, please feel free to pull up any review, even from this site, and read people ramble on about the screen, glad it suits you, but here you are once again, claiming an extremely well requested feature is somehow dumb. So far you don't want apps, don't want a good browser, don't want a hi res screen... Ok moving on.

Its rather redundant to clammor on about how you think androids interface is confusing. Its so customizable that you could make it appear identical to a blackberry if you wanted to, to look and function like one. But I'm assuming you'd say customizing is for sheep.

So you don't buy into faster CPU speeds and larger ram... I guess that would mean rims newest phones are faster due to magic and wizardry then, its certainly not hardware upgrades, those are total nonsense. I get your point that it suits your needs, really I do, but previously you've stated rims problems are their customers, well thank you sir for striving to prove that theory

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[_StephenBB81]

It just occurred to me... people complain about Mike and Jim, but it could be worse. RIM could be run by some of the posters here. Now that would be cause for alarm.

+1
I would say 99% of the posters here couldn't manage a small manufacturing firm, let alone even sit in on a board of directors meeting.

Though there are a few I would not cringe to see on the board

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[ssbtech]

So you don't buy into faster CPU speeds and larger ram... I guess that would mean rims newest phones are faster due to magic and wizardry then, its certainly not hardware upgrades, those are total nonsense.

I never said that, what I said was that a phone doesn't need to have 2GHz multi-core processors in them just for the sake of having a fast processor.

I have friends who seem to have a new phone every 6 months. Why, I have no idea.

I just don't see what Android/iPhones can do for me that my Torch doesn't do.

Perhaps it's just because I can't stand anything sci-fi and I prefer the more business like approach of the BlackBerry. If you want to believe your phone landed from outer space, go ahead.

[_StephenBB81]

I actually think RIM needs to greatly improve their desktop software. The desktop/device sync thing is one thing Apple has really done well.

I really don't need to spend more for a phone with twice the power and RAM than I need.

It's a phone for heaven's sake, not a computer.

I would rather use RIM's DM over iTunes ANYDAY
I tunes is the reason I don't maintain Mac's and iPood's for friends. The worst software ever!

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[ssbtech]

I would rather use RIM's DM over iTunes ANYDAY
I tunes is the reason I don't maintain Mac's and iPood's for friends. The worst software ever!

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Didn't say I liked iTunes

But for some reason my picture and video sync doesn't work, the WiFi music sync never worked right and slowed the phone right down, the Desktop software .exe process doesn't terminate properly when I close the program so I have to go into Task Manager and kill it manually every time...

[Tre Lawrence]

I generally hate desktop companion software, and while I have come to appreciate iOS, there is NOTHING I hate more in this world than iTunes. It is the very definition of bloatware.

I dislike DM, but not nearly as much as iTunes.