1. blackmoe's Avatar
    EVERY app (especially financial institutions) that has access to sensitive information is password protected on iOS devices (assume Androids, too). No casual user will have access to this info.

    Do you have NFC installed on your laptop? Why is this an issue on "phones" and not on laptops where EVERYTHING is stored?
    Why do you think some middle eastern countries wanted RIM to open access to their secure servers? Apple was never asked because the carriers handling IPhone traffic aren't secure.
    08-08-11 11:22 AM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    EVERY app (especially financial institutions) that has access to sensitive information is password protected on iOS devices (assume Androids, too). No casual user will have access to this info.

    Do you have NFC installed on your laptop? Why is this an issue on "phones" and not on laptops where EVERYTHING is stored?
    Probably it is not a concern yet, since there are no consumer laptops on the market yet that support NFC.

    Lenovo has introduced one for enterprise only, and it will not be available to consumers for another several months. Lenovo adds NFC functionality to ThinkPad laptop PCs

    NFC chips for laptops are very new. broadcom nfc chip - NFC Rumors NFC Rumors
    08-08-11 11:27 AM
  3. Snick Snack's Avatar
    I believe that the difference is that most people who are active on tech sites, such as this one, are more aware and more concerned about security than the average PC/smartphone owner who never or rarely visits tech sites.

    You call yourself a geek on your public profile on Crackberry. The "average consumer" is not one who considers himself/herself a geek.
    You don't have to be a geek to be concern about security on your electronic devices/network. As I've said all you need is an identity compromise to bring that lesson home. And unfortunately that's easier to achieve then it should be.

    And yes as a "geek" I'm probably ahead of the average consumer in carrying, but you can't not afford to care either.
    08-08-11 11:28 AM
  4. Economist101's Avatar
    I think it's a pretty broad call to say consumers (implying all consumers) have never cared about security. That's a big generalization.
    Yes, it is a big generalization. It's also true. However, I deliberately didn't use the word "all," so don't' suggest I implied it.

    I consider myself a consumer and I care very much about computer security, my home network system is firewalled by my router, by Windows and my Virus protection. My BB and my wi-fi network are all password encrypted. My virus protection is updated automatically same as my Windows.
    You're the exception. Many people can't even be bothered to put a passcode on their phone, much less secure wi-fi networks. It's like how every so often man bites dog, but that doesn't change the fact that in most cases, dogs bite people, not the other way around. And just so we're clear, you'll notice I didn't use any absolute language like "all" or "every."

    The one and only time (touch wood) that I ever had my debit card compromised was when I used it at what gas station because they didn't take credit cards. Luckily for me, my bank caught that problem immediately, flagged my account and denied all access to my information until I went to my bank, got a new card etc.
    It's "knock on wood," not "touch wood." As for this example, what does it have to do with the current discussion? Is the bank owned by RIM?

    If you experience any kind of identity compromises you would care very, very much about security.
    I never suggested otherwise. But since most people have never had (and likely will not have) this experience, it's not a powerful motivator. Here in Southern California, there's a constant earthquake danger. Yet the majority of people around here aren't prepared. Why? Because the last significant earthquake was in 2008, and the last one which resulted in loss of life was in 1994. As a result, most people do not see it as the kind of danger that's worth the worry. It's human nature, unfortunately.

    Perhaps there are more consumers who are careless about security then there are consumers who are more aware. But I'm sure with education or hard lessons learned many of these "unaware" consumers will be significantly more cautious.
    So basically you're acknowledging that what I wrote was true, but with "education," people's behavior might change. Profound.
    08-08-11 11:32 AM
  5. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I just checked Windows Network and Sharing Center. In my apartment building, which has 11 units: 2 people are using WPA2-PSK, one is using WPA-PSK, one is using WEP, and there are 3 unsecured networks.
    08-08-11 11:39 AM
  6. sosumi11's Avatar
    It's funny listening about how people are worried about security, yet use an operating system on their laptops/desktop that created a multi-billion dollar anti-virus industry because the Seattle-based software maker chose reverse compatibility over security.

    No wonder they are worried.
    Last edited by sosumi11; 08-08-11 at 11:47 AM.
    08-08-11 11:45 AM
  7. vw1's Avatar
    I was a die-hard blackberry fan, UNTIL I got a whiff of Android. Then I said to myself, why the heck did I waste so much time with a phone that was slow as ****, couldnt access half of the websites i wanted to, had to have the battery pulled daily (or the black clock would drive me nuts), would shut down and reboot at random, would shut down when i tried to use the camera, took 7 minutes to reboot...and the list goes on. My friends and family thought i was nuts for sticking with bb. Then I saw the light and since I have an Android phone with a keyboard I havent looked back since (well maybe the first 2 days during my learning curve) but after that once I realized what BB doesnt do as opposed to what Android does I couldnt believe I spent so much time and $ on Blackberry.

    I thought i would wait it out for the 9900 but of course Ive been waiting now for months and i was sick of waiting (freaking ridiculous). How much longer do you have to wait on a phone good grief, its a phone! It shouldnt take months and months to come out and I bet when it does it still wont be as wonderful as my Android phone.

    No battery pulls, No phone shutting down at random, no stupid black clock, no lag, no slow internet, no inability to play you-tube, no expensive Apps (many of android apps are free and they are good apps not just the BS apps that Appworld has)...AWESOME battery life (my stock Android battery last longer than the extended battery I bought for my 9650)...BTW I have the Motorola XPRT, loving it!

    So I can see RIM disappearing soon unless they step it up. And believe me I was the biggest BB fan ever. But this 9650 drove me crazy and it made me not trust RIM with another phone. I refused to buy another BB because of all the problems I had with it. So bye bye RIM...
    08-08-11 11:46 AM
  8. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    It's funny listening about how people are worried about security, yet use an operating system on their laptops/desktop that created a multi-billion dollar anti-virus industry because the Seattle-based software maker chose reverse compatibility over security.

    No wonder they are worried.
    For the record, I also run Linux.
    08-08-11 11:55 AM
  9. Snick Snack's Avatar
    Yes, it is a big generalization. It's also true. However, I deliberately didn't use the word "all," so don't' suggest I implied it.



    You're the exception. Many people can't even be bothered to put a passcode on their phone, much less secure wi-fi networks. It's like how every so often man bites dog, but that doesn't change the fact that in most cases, dogs bite people, not the other way around. And just so we're clear, you'll notice I didn't use any absolute language like "all" or "every."



    It's "knock on wood," not "touch wood." As for this example, what does it have to do with the current discussion? Is the bank owned by RIM?



    I never suggested otherwise. But since most people have never had (and likely will not have) this experience, it's not a powerful motivator. Here in Southern California, there's a constant earthquake danger. Yet the majority of people around here aren't prepared. Why? Because the last significant earthquake was in 2008, and the last one which resulted in loss of life was in 1994. As a result, most people do not see it as the kind of danger that's worth the worry. It's human nature, unfortunately.



    So basically you're acknowledging that what I wrote was true, but with "education," people's behavior might change. Profound.
    I use my bank as an example in terms of NFC coming out soon. People will care when they start experiencing compromises like this, that's all.

    You said "consumers don't care" and sorry, I just don't agree with "consumers don't care", I think they do, but will they change their behaviour, not so sure. That part I agree with you... sad but true (not the agreeing with you part! but the fact that there are people who are uncautious.

    BTW you can only prepare so much for an earthquake (I live on the same fault line up north) but you can take a more proactive approach to electronic security, wouldn't you agree?
    08-08-11 12:00 PM
  10. Buzz_Dengue's Avatar
    Do you have NFC installed on your laptop? Why is this an issue on "phones" and not on laptops where EVERYTHING is stored?
    ... why would NFC be on a laptop? I like the visuals this invokes though
    drjay868 likes this.
    08-08-11 12:01 PM
  11. Snick Snack's Avatar
    I just checked Windows Network and Sharing Center. In my apartment building, which has 11 units: 2 people are using WPA2-PSK, one is using WPA-PSK, one is using WEP, and there are 3 unsecured networks.
    I don't live in an apt. but in my neighbourhood there are 6 wireless networks within range of my house. 2 of them running WPA2-PSK, four on WEP and one unsecure...

    Perhaps in the US there are more unsecure networks, I dunno... I live in Canada and pretty well unless I'm in a public hotspot it's hard to find an unsecure network available.
    08-08-11 12:07 PM
  12. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I use my bank as an example in terms of NFC coming out soon. People will care when they start experiencing compromises like this, that's all.

    You said "consumers don't care" and sorry, I just don't agree with "consumers don't care", I think they do, but will they change their behaviour, not so sure. That part I agree with you... sad but true (not the agreeing with you part! but the fact that there are people who are uncautious.

    BTW you can only prepare so much for an earthquake (I live on the same fault line up north) but you can take a more proactive approach to electronic security, wouldn't you agree?
    I think you just touched on another thing that could explain apathy on the part of some people.

    I don't know how the TV weather forecasters are on the news in Canada or California. Here the most extreme weather we could get would be tornadoes or blizzards. However, the TV weather forecasters, especially one particular guy, tend to make any severe weather alert sound like Armageddon is coming. When people hear the overly exaggerated stuff too much, they tend to ignore a real danger, like the "boy who cried wolf."

    The warnings about PC and smartphone security could also have the same effect on people as the weather warnings.
    08-08-11 12:07 PM
  13. qbnkelt's Avatar
    It sounds strange to me, but there appears to be a certain amount of advocacy on this thread for apathetic consumers who are oblivious to security. Pardon me, but is the idea to dummy down the smatphone market in favour of flashy apps, games and overmuscled devices at the expense of security?
    I would state that however much the average consumer is portrayed as an uninformed apathetic loser, the truth may be away from that. Most adults who care about their credit scores care about the safety and integrity of their finances and personal information. I don't see the average consumer walking into lamp posts with his head is in the sand.
    I will purchase devices that guard my information over a 4.3 slab of glass with a gorgeous screen and a dual core processor.
    Last edited by Qbnkelt; 08-08-11 at 07:21 PM.
    08-08-11 12:33 PM
  14. Buzz_Dengue's Avatar
    I will purchase devices that guard my information above a 4.3 slab of glass with a gorgeous screen and a dual core processor.
    I know these choices are currently mutually exclusive, but can I puh-leez get that in my next Blackberry phone? Soon?
    08-08-11 12:39 PM
  15. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    It sounds strange to me, but there appears to be a certain amount of advocacy on this thread for apathetic consumers who are oblivious to security. Pardon me, but is the idea to dummy down the smatphone market in favour of flashy apps, games and overmuscled devices at the expense of security?
    I would state that however much the average consumer is portrayed to be as an uninformed apathetic loser, the truth may be away from that. Most adults who care about their credit scores care about the safety and integrity of their finances and personal information. I don't see the average consumer walking into lamp posts because his head is in the sand.
    I will purchase devices that guard my information above a 4.3 slab of glass with a gorgeous screen and a dual core processor.
    I think it all comes down to the perspective of what business one works in, and what his/her job is.

    For instance, the IT staff at a business will do their best to secure the network and prevent the users from infecting machines with malware.

    However, someone who works for a company that does PC repair welcomes apathetic consumers. The less those consumers care about security, the more money there is to be made when those folks bring in their PCs to clean up viruses.

    We do not have a smartphone malware removal service business at this time, but I am sure that Symantec, McAfee, and all those other companies would love to have more platforms on which their software can run.
    08-08-11 12:41 PM
  16. Snick Snack's Avatar
    I think you just touched on another thing that could explain apathy on the part of some people.

    I don't know how the TV weather forecasters are on the news in Canada or California. Here the most extreme weather we could get would be tornadoes or blizzards. However, the TV weather forecasters, especially one particular guy, tend to make any severe weather alert sound like Armageddon is coming. When people hear the overly exaggerated stuff too much, they tend to ignore a real danger, like the "boy who cried wolf."

    The warnings about PC and smartphone security could also have the same effect on people as the weather warnings.
    LOL... yes I think you're right.

    We get the occasional news feature story on smartphone security and how important it is. In fact one was on a couple of days ago... can't remember what it said since the warning went out specific to Droid and iPhone users...

    A recent newspaper article said 6.6 million Canadians owned smartphones as of March 2011. (Our population is only a little over 10 million - we probably have more bears/moose then people). Of those smartphones owners, about 42 per cent (approximately 2.77 million) owned Blackberry smartphones, combined with the fact that a majority of wi-fi networks are password protected I think Canadians overall are more security consious, thus my slant on why I think not all consumers are unaware or uncaring about electronic and privacy protection/security.
    Last edited by Snick Snack; 08-08-11 at 12:58 PM. Reason: Population should have said 32 million... sorry.
    08-08-11 12:44 PM
  17. qbnkelt's Avatar
    True, that.
    But my mother is quite interested in preserving her information...she's fairly average. And carries a BB.
    08-08-11 12:47 PM
  18. sosumi11's Avatar
    Pardon me, but is the idea to dummy down the smatphone market in favour of flashy apps, games and overmuscled devices at the expense of security?
    How is a system that is UNIX-based (Darwin foundation) be called dummy downed?

    Oh, any device that is easy to use must be "dummy-downed". Never mind.
    08-08-11 12:55 PM
  19. qbnkelt's Avatar
    How is a system that is UNIX-based (Darwin foundation) be called dummy downed?

    Oh, any device that is easy to use must be "dummy-downed". Never mind.
    The content in my post dealt with security, not the underlying core.
    But you're right. I could have been clearer.
    Posted while at work...boring teleconference.
    sosumi11 likes this.
    08-08-11 01:03 PM
  20. sosumi11's Avatar
    The content in my post dealt with security, not the underlying core.
    But shouldn't security start with the underlying core and not added on as a layer?
    08-08-11 01:13 PM
  21. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Am I following this correctly?

    Your real concern is with Gmail, as you got two phishing e-mails while using Gmail in conjunction with your Atrix?

    If this is what you're asserting, it goes opposite of my experience. Gmail has done a fantastic job of blocking spam, and has features now that will warn me when a suspicious e-mail arrives. Their services, as I've found them, far outpace the competition when it comes to separating the good from the bad.

    And, my apologies in advance if I'm reading your post incorrectly, it's been a long day.
    I can relate to long days...maybe we should get together for a virtual pint!!
    I've not had a positive with gmail, although I know that it is an widely used. I did not care for the feel of it, but that was my personal preference and has no bearing on the two incidents I experienced.
    It may have been as a result of an app I loaded...a theme...can't be certain. I do know that I had to load gmail to be able to use the App market, so at this point I can speak of correlation but not causality. In as many years as I've carried smartphones, I find the coincidence alarming enough that I am not ready to call it a coincidence.
    08-08-11 01:17 PM
  22. qbnkelt's Avatar
    But shouldn't security start with the underlying core and not added on as a layer?
    That is the reason I like BB. The core is inaccessible. At best a hacker would get to the app layer but not deeper.
    08-08-11 01:21 PM
  23. Shlooky's Avatar
    You never know, hackers can do all sorts of things these days. RIM could be their next target for all we know.
    08-08-11 01:40 PM
  24. Economist101's Avatar
    It sounds strange to me, but there appears to be a certain amount of advocacy on this thread for apathetic consumers who are oblivious to security. Pardon me, but is the idea to dummy down the smatphone market in favour of flashy apps, games and overmuscled devices at the expense of security?
    The point is to recognize the way people behave. You can talk security all you want, but the reality is that most people just aren't paying attention. This isn't advocacy on behalf of those people; it's merely a recognition that they think and behave a certain way, and that the behavior reveals their preferences.

    I would state that however much the average consumer is portrayed to be as an uninformed apathetic loser, the truth may be away from that. Most adults who care about their credit scores care about the safety and integrity of their finances and personal information. I don't see the average consumer walking into lamp posts because his head is in the sand. I will purchase devices that guard my information above a 4.3 slab of glass with a gorgeous screen and a dual core processor.
    Just so we're clear, I certainly don't think consumers are losers. But they like what they like. Now, if U.S. consumers put security at the top of their list, RIM would sell more devices. But U.S. consumers don't, so RIM doesn't. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but rather acknowledging that these are the facts.

    It's like if I say that people here in the U.S. place our health at the top of what's important to us, even as our obesity rate keeps climbing and tobacco companies continue to make millions each day. Does that make any sense? No, because if our people did care, obesity and tobacco would appear at lower rates. Now do I wish that people took better care of themselves? Of course. But I'm not foolish enough to suggest that in light of the facts, health is of prime importance to most people. U.S. consumers aren't losers, but we are often apathetic.
    Last edited by Economist101; 08-08-11 at 01:50 PM.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    08-08-11 01:43 PM
  25. sosumi11's Avatar
    That is the reason I like BB. The core is inaccessible. At best a hacker would get to the app layer but not deeper.
    Exactly! The same logic applies to Apple's OS X, which goes back to my original question:

    Why do people that are worried about security use an operating system on their laptops/desktops made by a company that puts reverse compatibility over security?

    Apple routinely makes their past OS's obsolete because they know how to make transitions transparent:

    OS 9 to OS X (Mac Classic allowed both systems to run simultaneously)
    Power PC to Intel processors (Rosetta converted PPC code to Universal code)

    Microsoft had a heck of a time upgrading XP and ended up with Windows 7 which doesn't even allow direct upgrading from XP without buying a new box (or buy/install Vista first).

    RIM was forced to resort to a temp OS upgrade while they are working on QNX devices.

    You may criticize me for bringing up computers, but what do you call a computer that fits in your pocket?

    Hint: It's not a phone.
    08-08-11 01:45 PM
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