[dgburns]

The BB 8820 has been announced for ATT with WiFi support. Would Verizon do the same thing with its version of the BB 8820 and block WiFi to force people to use its data and voice network?

8820 wireless specs:
Wi-Fi: 802.11b/g 4
Wi-Fi: 802.11a 4
North America: 1900MHz GSM�/GPRS networks
Europe/Asia Pacific: 900MHz GSM/GPRS networks
Europe/Asia Pacific: 1800MHz GSM/GPRS networks
North America: 850 MHz GSM/GPRS networks
EDGE networks

Since the 8820 isn't a CDMA phone, neither Verizon nor Sprint will be offering it. If they COULD offer it, I suspect Verizon would disable the WiFi and Sprint would not.

So anyone heard of a WiFi capable version of the 8830 (i.e. WiFi + CDMA/EV-DO)??? That would sure be killer.

[dgburns]

If they COULD offer it, I suspect Verizon would disable the WiFi and Sprint would not.

If you doubt me, look at something like GPS. Go to Telenav web site.
Sprint 8703e internal GPS, enabled. Verizon 8703e internal GPS, disabled. Alltel 8703e internal GPS, enabled.
My fiance has a Verizon 7103e (Telnav doesn't list this model), no GPS. Sprint 7103e internal GPS, enabled.
But I guess Sprint 8830 is too new to be listed on Telenav web site, but all reports are that it's GPS is enabled.

[jazz110]

OK, don't get offended, but have you been living under a rock or something? How do you not know that Verizon disables all the nice features of ALL the phones they get. Do you think the reason why your Razr doesn't support Bluetooth file transfers is because it's not a capability of the phone? Far from it, it's because Verizon disabled that capability so that they can charge you for using their GetIT now service for ringtones and other things you could easily put on the phone yourself from your own collection. VZW has been pulling this sort of crap for years and you my friend are a prime example as to why they are still getting away with it. 98% (estimate) of the people that buy cell phones do not do the research prior to buying the phones to know exactly what they should or should not be getting in terms of functionality from them. You, yourself stated, that you didn't even know the 8830 had GPS capabilities built in from RIM. If you look up the specs on the web for it you'll find out it most definatly has GPS and it most definatly should be working (without need of cell towers) with the BBMaps software or Google Maps software that can run on the phones FREE OF CHARGE!

This is why some of us are upset... they are ripping us off and you're letting them do it because you're not aware of all the capabilities a product has natively prior to purchase. They have brainwashed you my friend.

I happened to have a few minutes at lunch and dropped into some third party shop that carried Verizon. Wireless Universe or something like that. The sales guy didn't have a clue about the 8830's GPS hardware. He did know that it didn't support VZNavigator. He didn't know if even VZNavigator would be supported by the 8830 in the future. Yes, I know that feature/service costs extra.

All in all I'm pretty happy with the 8830's e-mail service. I've only had this since July 10, and it has sort of turned into the TIVO of my life. Freed me from my desk, and it has allowed me exceed in what I do at a university. Doing a little IM chatting with my daughter half way across the country just made my day.

Has Verizon backed down on any similar locked features in the past?

[JRSCCivic98]

Has Verizon backed down on any similar locked features in the past?

No one has pushed the issue "far" enough before....

[hooper]

No one has pushed the issue "far" enough before....

On other phones (READ Windows Mobile based) some talented developers have developed "hacks" to get around Verizon's nonsense. The Sammy i730 was a perfect example. Every limitation Verizon put into the phone was hacked to make it work.

The development community around RIM is just starting to pick up. Honestly, until RIM released this latest OS and series of phones, there was nothing interesting enought to mess around with.

VZW lost a 10,000+ device opportunity that I was working on to Sprint because they had no LBS services for 3rd party software developers.

Verizon will enable GPS in this phone for 3rd party applications to use. However, it won't be because consumers are getting pissed, but because large enterprise customers are threatening to move to alternate carriers to get LBS/GPS services.

[Noeld1024]

No one has pushed the issue "far" enough before....

Wasn't there a similar issue with the Motorola Q? Both myself and my wife at different times each had a Q & there weren't any problems by then...but didn't Verizon initially release the Q without Bluetooth support for file transfer?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I had heard that somewhere...and then they released a "patch" to "fix" the issue...I don't know...whatever...I just hope that they DO enable the GPS soon...I filed with FTC...but I really don't care how or why, I just want my phone's GPS enabled!

[lassesen]

"Searching for satellites" on blackberry maps!

Ability to turn GPS on or off also appeared on it....


So HOW did I do it....

Well what is it worth to you?????

SIMPLE -- when all else fair, reload the application -- folks said it was software disabled.... so I went and reloaded the Maps from the RIM site... and voila

www. blackberry .com/devicesoftware/entry.do?code=maps

Just have to verify that I get a GPS location--- at least we are one step further!

[hooper]

"Searching for satellites" on blackberry maps!

Ability to turn GPS on or off also appeared on it....


So HOW did I do it....

Well what is it worth to you?????

SIMPLE -- when all else fair, reload the application -- folks said it was software disabled.... so I went and reloaded the Maps from the RIM site... and voila

www. blackberry .com/devicesoftware/entry.do?code=maps

Just have to verify that I get a GPS location--- at least we are one step further!

I hate to burst your bubble, but you won't get a satellite lock.

[JRSCCivic98]

"Searching for satellites" on blackberry maps!

Ability to turn GPS on or off also appeared on it....


So HOW did I do it....

Well what is it worth to you?????

SIMPLE -- when all else fair, reload the application -- folks said it was software disabled.... so I went and reloaded the Maps from the RIM site... and voila

www. blackberry .com/devicesoftware/entry.do?code=maps

Just have to verify that I get a GPS location--- at least we are one step further!

Been there, done that, next. The BBMaps that VZW preloaded on the phone has some limitations in it as well, but that's not the only piece to the puzzle. There are files in the OS that are coded to disable GPS only for VZW handsets and not others. If it was as simple as it being a BBMaps limitation then Goggle Maps or other GPS apps would work.

[JRSCCivic98]

Wasn't there a similar issue with the Motorola Q? Both myself and my wife at different times each had a Q & there weren't any problems by then...but didn't Verizon initially release the Q without Bluetooth support for file transfer?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I had heard that somewhere...and then they released a "patch" to "fix" the issue...I don't know...whatever...I just hope that they DO enable the GPS soon...I filed with FTC...but I really don't care how or why, I just want my phone's GPS enabled!

Yep, happened with both the Moto Razr and with the v710.

[lassesen]

:- (

I understand that telus is selling the 8830 in canada soon... So.... if telus does not disable GPS, then there's chance then copying those files across may resolve the issue --- fingers crossed.

[BlackBerry.est08]

I don't understand why they would need to disable the GPS functionality on the 8830. I'm currently with Bell and I'm pretty sure it's the same with all carriers, but with Bell, when you use the GPS, you have to sign up for a subscription (day, month or year) plus the GPS will use your data plan. The way I see it is that when you signed up for your voice/data plan, you're already "paying" to use the GPS because you need a data plan in order for it to work. I could be wrong but just wanted to post my experience to see if it helps anyone out

[dlathem]

According to the folks at RIM I contacted, you don't need a data plan to get GPS satellite information from the receiver chip in the 8830. The 8830, they say has an autonomous receiver chip just like the Garmin or Magellan auto units.

All cellphone must have, by law, a way to locate themselves for 911 calls. Most carriers use a system where you ping their towers and get an approximate location by the phone sending that data to a server that calculates the location and reports it. This only takes place when you make a 911 call.

I agree, if you are using the carrier data system to locate yourself for directional tracking services you need to pay for the data. The 8830 can, according to RIM, provide Blackberry Maps and Google Mobile with GPS coordinates without using the Verizon data service.

Verizon tells me they cannot allow access to their data system by third party navigation software for fear of a network virus. This is why, they say, all GPS or GPS type functions are disabled. Verizon insists that the GPS receiver in the 8830 cannot function without working with their data network.

So, the manufacturer says one thing and the carrier another.

Either way, if you have a 8830 you MUST have a data plan. You are already paying for data and apparently Verizon wants you to pay yet again when they release the VZNavigator for the 8830.

I believe Verizon will have a real legal problem if they attempt to charge customers who already have a data plan again to access the data they are already paying for just to use VZNavigator.

I hope they do the right thing by their customers when, and if, they release VZNavigator.

I am not holding my breath.

[BlackBerry.est08]

Yeah it's true that all phones have the "GPS chip" but if they say that's what's used to power the GPS on the 8830 instead of using your data plan, then charging customers again for something that has already been payed for is absolutely wrong. Me I thought that the GPS was receiving data and was using my data plan to get that data because when you start up the GPS it warns you that data rates apply or something like that. I hope not, but I'm positive that you have to subscribe to the GPS for a small fee which I think it's fair

[wazuri77]

Dear ,

Thank you for your recent e mail to Mr. Dennis Strigl, who has asked me to respond to you on his behalf.

Verizon Wireless' advertisements do not represent the autonomous GPS receiver and you may be referring to and Ad by the manufacturer. There may be disclaimers that not all carriers will sell the unit with the GPS system active.

In the 4th quarter of 2007, Verizon Wireless is expecting to launch VZNavigator in many of our PDA devices. The software to utilize this program would be available to our customers at no cost.

If you have further questions, please feel free to contact me directly.

Steve Schwed
Verizon Wireless
HQ Executive Relations Supervisor
e-mail [email protected]

[dlathem]

The software may be free, but I will bet you a dollar to a doughnut that a fee for the service will be proposed.

[dgburns]

According to the folks at RIM I contacted, you don't need a data plan to get GPS satellite information from the receiver chip in the 8830. The 8830, they say has an autonomous receiver chip just like the Garmin or Magellan auto units.

...

I agree, if you are using the carrier data system to locate yourself for directional tracking services you need to pay for the data. The 8830 can, according to RIM, provide Blackberry Maps and Google Mobile with GPS coordinates without using the Verizon data service.

I think you are confusing this. Correct (see first post in this thread) the GPS in the 8830 is fully autonomous, i.e. can work just like a Garmin or Magellan, however you clearly MUST have a data plan in order to get the maps to your device. No current application for BlackBerry includes pre-loaded maps like a Garmin or Magellan or TomTom or whatever, they all get the location from the GPS chip and then download maps over the air (i.e. they require data). I previously had a 7100i via Nextel and BBMaps worked seemlessly and worked like a Garmin or whatever, BUT Nextel's iDEN is way too slow for it to be practical.

Verizon tells me they cannot allow access to their data system by third party navigation software for fear of a network virus. This is why, they say, all GPS or GPS type functions are disabled. Verizon insists that the GPS receiver in the 8830 cannot function without working with their data network.

I think the whole virus thing is someone just making up a excuse because whoever you talked to doesn't have a REAL clue what Verizon has planned. As for working with their data network, as I said, of course they would have to work with their data network in order to download the maps.

Either way, if you have a 8830 you MUST have a data plan. You are already paying for data and apparently Verizon wants you to pay yet again when they release the VZNavigator for the 8830.

You hit the nail on the head. VZW wants the revenue. Just like with the TeleNav service that Nextel sells on their GPS-enabled BB's, VZW wants the revenue that would be generated by being able to sell you some number of "routes" per month for an additional fee. Sure, they'll give you the VZNavigator software for free, you'll just have to pay extra to be able to actually USE it (just like you have to pay them $15 extra to be able to USE the tethered modem capability of the 8830).

I believe Verizon will have a real legal problem if they attempt to charge customers who already have a data plan again to access the data they are already paying for just to use VZNavigator.

Why? Nextel has no "legal problem" charging you extra to use their TeleNav solution. Nor does seemingly anyone else that offers the TeleNav service.

I hope they do the right thing by their customers when, and if, they release VZNavigator.

I am not holding my breath.

Nor am I. The "right thing" is a matter of perception of course, and while I would LIKE to be able to use GoogleMaps or BBMaps for no extra charge above what I'm already paying for a data plan, VZW has obviously made a corporate decision to not do so. *SIGH*

[johnny-d]

Car navigation system purchased from big box store = $200.00
Not having to worry about stupid Verizon Corporate Policy---priceless
I figure they are going to charge us $15 bucks / month if they ever get GPS on the phone, so at that rate, I would have broken even after 13 months. I would love GPS to work on my Verizon phone, but it is not worth the aggravation worrying about it any longer.

[dlathem]

I think you are confusing this. Correct (see first post in this thread) the GPS in the 8830 is fully autonomous, i.e. can work just like a Garmin or Magellan, however you clearly MUST have a data plan in order to get the maps to your device. No current application for BlackBerry includes pre-loaded maps like a Garmin or Magellan or TomTom or whatever, they all get the location from the GPS chip and then download maps over the air (i.e. they require data). I previously had a 7100i via Nextel and BBMaps worked seemlessly and worked like a Garmin or whatever, BUT Nextel's iDEN is way too slow for it to be practical.
*SIGH*

I do not mean to add to the confusion but I am really talking about two different types of data and I should have been more clear on this.

I realize you need an internet data plan to download navigation maps as the 8830 does not store them locally. Even without GPS activated on the 8830 I already have access to this information. I have an external bluetooth GPS puck that provides the 8830 the GPS data and the phone goes out and gets the map data to match it via the internet data plan I am already paying for.

The other data, used by the 8830, is for compliance with the FCC requirements of determining a callers location during a 911 call. This is not internet based data and is held wholly within the Verizon network.

Verizon uses A-GPS (Assisted GPS) utilizing either AFLT (Advanced Forward Link Trilateration) or EFLT (Enhanced Forward Link Trilateration) on their CDMA system to get information on location via their own network towers. This involves the phone pinging the three nearest towers and obtaining information from them and sending that data to a PDE (Position Determination Entity) server operated by the network to calculate the location of the device. The data from the GPS receiver in the 8830 is used by this system as a supplement to improve accuracy..therefore the assisted part. In this case the GPS data is assisting the other location system.

Just for further clarity.....There is a second variety of A GPS where the data network on the phone goes out over the internet to get almanac and ephemeris data to speed up the TTFF (Time to First Fix) of the GPS. To my knowledge this does not involve data from a CDMA AFLT/EFLT network. This is known as "aided" GPS. The phone internet based data aids the GPS in getting the first location fix faster than it otherwise would.

What I am saying is that if the GPS receiver chip in the 8830 is liberated it can be used in the same way I am currently using the GPS bluetooth puck. I am already paying for that internet data needed by Blackberry maps. I do not believe that Blackberry Maps would know what do do with the AFLT or EFLT data if it had it.

It looks like to me like Verizon wants to put us all in the position of paying for the CDMA network traffic via AFTL/EFTL that we don't need for third party Navigation software in exchange for liberating the GPS.

The VZNavigator, will no doubt, use the AFTL/EFTL data as well as the GPS data for its mapping program. It might be that the only way we will be able to have built in Navigation in the 8830 is to use VZNavigator and the AFTL/EFTL data system. I doubt that Blackberry Maps or Google Maps would work any better after Verizon released VZNavigator for the 8830 because they still might not "unlock" the autonomous GPS receiver built in to the 8830.

So, when RIM says the GPS chip in the 8830 does not need a data plan what they are talking about is the CDMA based AFTL/EFTL data.

Adding to the confusion is Verizon's position that the GPS system in the 8830 is integrated with the AFTL/EFTL location system and cannot be separated. RIM's position is that the GPS receiver data can be provided without accessing any other data via AFTL/EFTL.

Who is right?
Who do we believe?

[BlackBerry.est08]

Well on Bell's 8830, when you load the GPS you have options to pick: "Month ($xxx.xx) plus data use" or "Day ($xxx.xx) plus data use" so they're are actually telling you your data plan comes into play and it isn't Bell that's doing it, it's the actual program itself. Like someone posted earlier, the maps and locations are not preset or already on your 8830, when you run the GPS, it actually retrieves it from which ever server so you have to use your data plan in order for the GPS to work. Again, that's with Bell, don't know how it is in the States but I figure it's basically the same thing if not, something close to it.

[dlathem]

With Verizon you have to have a data plan if you have a blackberry so you are already paying for the data to get the maps to your blackberry when you use mapping software. The problem with the Verizon 8830 is that you don't have access to the GPS location data to feed your navigation program that pulls its maps via the data you are already paying for.

[bruce_h96]

I was unaware of this GPS issue until last night. A tech at Verizon said there is a way to bypass the block. He said it is lengthy and that I'd have to figure it out myself through web research.

Any ideas?

Bruce

[DJpyrax]

Feel free to post a compliant on the FCC website.

[HoldHard]

Yep, after the evaluation timeperiod expired, it suddenly stopped working. Very interesting. It worked two weeks ago but now on day number 31 it stops. After contacting Verizon support and them connecting to Blackberry support, was told by BB that Verizon has turned off the GPS capability.

Since I have not turned in my recommendation on the purchase of the BB (the company is looking at 40 or 50 as we have a global presence) it looks like I'll be recommending SPRINT as the carrier of choice for the 8830.

Too bad Verizon.... you just lost another little account ($10K for hardware and another $39K per year in services....). I guess you can afford to let a $50,000 client go to your competition......

HH

[ibmman69]

That is very interesting. He may have just been blowing smoke.

I was unaware of this GPS issue until last night. A tech at Verizon said there is a way to bypass the block. He said it is lengthy and that I'd have to figure it out myself through web research.

Any ideas?

Bruce