[dlathem]

After several tries I have finally received what I believe is a very clear statement by Research In Motion about the GPS capabilibities of the BB 8830.

The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone houses a proprietary, autonomous GPS receiver. This
receiver is able to calculate the handheld's location relying solely on GPS
satellites with no input from cellular towers. While the device does have assisted
GPS, i.e. A-GPS capability, it houses a "full" GPS system similar in nature
to GPS systems used by GPS-only car kits and mobile devices. This is designed to
be accessible by second- and third-party applications such as BlackBerry Maps, Google
Maps, and TeleNav. Such programs do need a wireless data signal to download mapping
information, though they can figure out where the BlackBerry is in terms of latitude
and longitude with just the GPS signal.

The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone as released by Verizon has had this "full"
GPS capability disabled at a software level. Verizon has indicated that they plan
to release their own proprietary GPS mapping solution at a later time; possibly
VZ Navigator. AT&T and T-Mobile have both taken similar routes with their 8800
series handhelds; locking out GPS access for 3rd party programs and only enabling
access to the built-in receiver to the TeleNav program that they sell themselves.

If you would like Verizon to enable GPS functionality on the BlackBerry 8830, I
suggest you contact them and advise them as much.

Thank you again for contacting us, Dennis. If you have any questions or comments,
feel free to contact us.

Sincerely,

Adam
BlackBerry Customer Support
Research In Motion Limited


What say you Verizon!

[Firefishe]

So what do we do now? Seems to me that the representative from RIM has stated that the company's are crippling the functionality of our BB 8800/8830 GPS Chipsets.

Don't know about the 8800 statement, though, as I thought the AT&T 8800's GPS worked just fine with 3rd party apps?

However, the matter at hand seems clear: RIM's customer service department has stated that the 8830 has available Autonomous GPS functionality. We, as the owners of said hardware, have the right to full functionality of the stand-alone portion of the 8830's (and 8800's for that matter) GPS capability.

I think another question is also in order: Are there any other GPS-enabled handsets on the market that are not being crippled, and, if so, why then would BlackBerries be singled out?

I think those of us who have experience in or are willing to learn the complexities of Java Coding, should form a callaborative effort to provide, as a public service, an open source and as as free a solution as is possible software solution that would allow unfettered access to the 8830's (and 8800, if accurate) Autonomous GPS Functions.

Either that, or form a company and resell stock BlackBerries with no carrier branding, fully-unlocked, and with no gps limitations, save for A-GPS lockout for those carriers who won't support it from a 3rd party reseller.

The above, also, to avoid potential legal and FCC issues. We just want to be able to use our units' stand-alone, Autonomous GPS functionality, and most decidedly *not* interfere with a carrier's ability to control relevant traffic on their own network.

The ability to receive a stand-alone GPS signal from our 8830's internal chipset would not interfere with anyone's network, no matter who they are. A Bluetooth signal being received from an external puck doesn't interfere, so why would the Autonomous function of the internal GPS? Fact is, it wouldn't!

Sincerely,
Firefishe

[JRSCCivic98]

If you have the Blackberry JDE loaded up and can open up cod files take a look at the following two and see what's inside that pertains to GPS enabled or disabled. See what you find.

net_rim_services_impl
net_rim_locationapi

[hooper]

How are they actually disabling GPS here? It isn't at the software level, because you can load the Bell OS and it still doesn't work.

[JRSCCivic98]

Yes, it is at the software level. From everything I'm seeing it's controlled by a service book, which they are not sending. However, I have not been able to see if this is completely right because I haven't had a chance to take a peek at a Sprint phone yet.

Also, keep in mind that all OS's (even the Bell one) has info for cross carrier setups in the various xml and alx files. These settings pertain to the "carrier ID" which for VZW is 105. So, it's either linked to that and in the OS or via Service Books. It's just like the carrier themes. They are all in there, but not unlocked unless you remove the carrier ID check.

[audit]

I'd like it to work on the 8703's. I didn't like the feel of the 8830 and still won't go to it even though my boss keeps telling me that he'll pay for it if I want it. I'll stay with the 8703 until it's no longer available from anywhere or I'm forced to change carrier's.

[hooper]

If you have the Blackberry JDE loaded up and can open up cod files take a look at the following two and see what's inside that pertains to GPS enabled or disabled. See what you find.

net_rim_services_impl
net_rim_locationapi

Aren't cod files binary? I think you need the java files for the OS.

[mnm101]

Chat InformationPlease wait for a Verizon Wireless sales representative to assist you with your order. Thank you for your patience!

Chat InformationA Verizon Wireless online pre-sales specialist has joined the chat. You are now chatting with Emily.

You: hello

Emily.: Hello. Thank you for visiting our chat service. How may I help you today?

Emily.: Hi!

You: I was wondering if you had any info on the 8830 BlackBerry's GPS capabilities?

You: when will it be available > >

Emily.: This phone is available now.

Emily.: The BlackBerry 8830 World Edition smartphone redefines style, function and capability. This sleek and performance-driven smartphone has been redesigned with trackball navigation and a new backlit QWERTY keyboard. It comes equipped with microSD expandable memory support and a media player. It also offers Bluetooth® support and BroadbandAccess Connect service via VZAccess Manager.

Emily.: The BlackBerry 8830 is the first Global CDMA/GSM BlackBerry which promises to deliver the best global wireless experience to our customers when traveling abroad.

You: yah, I know, I'm asking about the GPS capabitlities; when will it be available?

Emily.: Are you referring to the navigational system?

You: yes

Emily.: This is available through a third party only.

You: which?

Emily.: You would have to visit Blackberry's manufacture website to view this.

You: I did.... RIM provided the phone with a GPS device which VZW has disabled. I was wondering if VZW ever plans on enabling this feature and allow us users to use it as it was intended to be used.

Emily.: I will be right with you.

Emily.: There is a difference. The GPS that is placed on this phone is for the Government officials to local in case you are lost or kidnapped. They use the cell towers to track the phones. The GPS for the navigational is totally different.

Emily.: I have not heard from you for a few moments. Would you like me to keep this chat session open for you?
You: y

Emily.: How else may I assist you online today?

You: It's the first CDMA BlackBerry smartphone capable of roaming globally on GSM/GPRS networks1, and it's packed with other incredible new features, including GPS*, BlackBerry® Maps........ * Check with service provider for supported features and services...... from the RIM website

Emily.: I just explained what the GPS is referring to please see above.

[JRSCCivic98]

^^^ Why does this surprise anyone? The idiots on the phone for Tier 1 support don't know anything, you'd expect the ones on chat to know more. LOL

[JRSCCivic98]

Aren't cod files binary? I think you need the java files for the OS.

COD files can be opened with the Java SDK which is available. I just haven't had time to look into it myself. If someone is a software developer for BB then they can easily look into those two files. If I had a Sprint 8830 handy I'd download the files off the phone and do a binary compare with the ones off the Verizon 8830. If they are the same then it's not that. The kicker is that I'd have to have 2 phones on the same software version which is not the case at the moment since Sprint and Verizon have 2 different revision versions of the OS. I want to say that I'm pretty sure the capability is Service Book driven. If someone with a Sprint phone could just list all of their Service Books it would easily explain this. Hack, it might even be in the "Provisioning" Service Book.

[uscwest]

This sounds like a possible class action suit in the making.

[Idaho Outlaw]

This sounds like a possible class action suit in the making.

I am not sure I follow?? You couldn't class action BB, because they didn't sell you the phone. You can't class action VW, because they are providing exactly what they say they are. No where do they advertize unlocked GSM or GPS.

I'm not argueing, I just need enlightened.

[jkendrick]

Brighthand just published a review of the Verizon 8830 and the author claims the GPS worked fine:

RIM BlackBerry 8830 World Edition Review - Brighthand.com Smartphone and PDA Discussion Forums

[JRSCCivic98]

I am not sure I follow?? You couldn't class action BB, because they didn't sell you the phone. You can't class action VW, because they are providing exactly what they say they are. No where do they advertize unlocked GSM or GPS.

I'm not argueing, I just need enlightened.

What Verizon is doing is extortion via disinformation of their customers. Simple as that.

[Noeld1024]

lol...true dat...I spoke with a bunch of Verizon reps and heard the same crap from all of them...although a few did say that they're going to be releasing VZNavigator probably for a lot of the PDAs in the future...but that's all they would say...

[yensalt]

Ohhh... I love this phone. I just cancelled my verizon 8830 trial upgrade...I regret doing so because verizon has been pretty good to me over the years (relatively speaking - all cell phone carriers are out to get you).

BUT... I signed up with Sprint instead and got the BlackBerry 8830 again.

Things I noticed, day 2:

* Comes in cool black! Verizon's silver was classy and clean, but black is growing on me, but shows smudges easier.
* The keypad is much more visible at night with the white on black, vs. the blue on silver.
* The same places I used to drop calls have perfect signal now (living and working in a beach city- everyone drops calls, but this is much improved!)
* Cost for data package is cheaper
* GPS works like a champ with Googlemaps...wow, it is VERY impressive.
* The bad: customer support people are *******...hopefully I don't have to do anything involving them again - they just don't have a clue.

Anyone have an opinion of Sprint vs. Verizon?

Stan.

[yensalt]

COD files can be opened with the Java SDK which is available. I just haven't had time to look into it myself. If someone is a software developer for BB then they can easily look into those two files. If I had a Sprint 8830 handy I'd download the files off the phone and do a binary compare with the ones off the Verizon 8830. If they are the same then it's not that. The kicker is that I'd have to have 2 phones on the same software version which is not the case at the moment since Sprint and Verizon have 2 different revision versions of the OS. I want to say that I'm pretty sure the capability is Service Book driven. If someone with a Sprint phone could just list all of their Service Books it would easily explain this. Hack, it might even be in the "Provisioning" Service Book.

I just got my Sprint BB Phone, and I still have my Verizon BB phone, going back via Fedex soon. What do you want to know? Not sure if this is what your looking for, but I think I have these "books" on my Sprint BB:

Provisioning [PROVISIONING]
Wireless Village - AIM [SMP]
Spring BlackBerry Internet Browsing Service [BROWSERCONFIG]
Spring Software Store [BROWSERCONFIG]
IPPP for BIBS [IPPP]
Browser Config for 5 Click [BROWSERCONFIG]
IPPP for 5 Click [IPPP]
BBFS2 [YHO]
BBFS1 [BBIMConfig]

Stan.

[tiger123]

Back to the subject at hand...

I bet Verizon will charge an extra subscription fee or charge for the software to allow the GPS to work. They have blocked it so it will be a money maker for them...they are cheating us out of something we already have then they will charge us for it.

[JRSCCivic98]

There is also info that VZW's contract with RIM specifically asks RIM to disable GPS in the device for them. Seems RIM is selling out, yet their stock keeps rising. Do you really want to help them in the process of ripping you off. If RIM had any guts they would deny Verizon's request and not cripple the GPS. I know this doesn't help things, but it's more info that's been made available.

[jazz110]

I of course am not happy that my Verizon 8830 could be giving me GPS service. I did not know that the device could support GPS when I bought it, and I still could return it. However, I did buy it knowing that GPS was not on the feature list, though I assumed I could buy Verizon's Navigator Service available on the last Moto Razr I had. So, does anyone know why the 8830 can't even support Verizon's Navigator pay to play service? If Verizon is going to lock out the native ability at least they could do is offer a cell tower based GPS. Is is common that Verizon holds back features or functionality? If they are working with Moto or RIM to get a device with their specs wouldn't they get all the features to roll out with the sale of the device?

[labear]

The BB 8820 has been announced for ATT with WiFi support. Would Verizon do the same thing with its version of the BB 8820 and block WiFi to force people to use its data and voice network?

[JRSCCivic98]

The BB 8820 has been announced for ATT with WiFi support. Would Verizon do the same thing with its version of the BB 8820 and block WiFi to force people to use its data and voice network?

I wouldn't put it past them to do so.

[JRSCCivic98]

I of course am not happy that my Verizon 8830 could be giving me GPS service. I did not know that the device could support GPS when I bought it, and I still could return it. However, I did buy it knowing that GPS was not on the feature list, though I assumed I could buy Verizon's Navigator Service available on the last Moto Razr I had. So, does anyone know why the 8830 can't even support Verizon's Navigator pay to play service? If Verizon is going to lock out the native ability at least they could do is offer a cell tower based GPS. Is is common that Verizon holds back features or functionality? If they are working with Moto or RIM to get a device with their specs wouldn't they get all the features to roll out with the sale of the device?

OK, don't get offended, but have you been living under a rock or something? How do you not know that Verizon disables all the nice features of ALL the phones they get. Do you think the reason why your Razr doesn't support Bluetooth file transfers is because it's not a capability of the phone? Far from it, it's because Verizon disabled that capability so that they can charge you for using their GetIT now service for ringtones and other things you could easily put on the phone yourself from your own collection. VZW has been pulling this sort of crap for years and you my friend are a prime example as to why they are still getting away with it. 98% (estimate) of the people that buy cell phones do not do the research prior to buying the phones to know exactly what they should or should not be getting in terms of functionality from them. You, yourself stated, that you didn't even know the 8830 had GPS capabilities built in from RIM. If you look up the specs on the web for it you'll find out it most definatly has GPS and it most definatly should be working (without need of cell towers) with the BBMaps software or Google Maps software that can run on the phones FREE OF CHARGE!

This is why some of us are upset... they are ripping us off and you're letting them do it because you're not aware of all the capabilities a product has natively prior to purchase. They have brainwashed you my friend.

[uscwest]

When I bought my BB8830 I did know it had GPS but I didn't know that VZ had turned it off until I read this forum.

[JRSCCivic98]

When I bought my BB8830 I did know it had GPS but I didn't know that VZ had turned it off until I read this forum.

Makes you angry doesn't it? Especially since VZW is the only carrier that does this. Please call them and voice your opinion. The more people complain the more they will see we don't appreciate their tactics.