1. currentodysseys's Avatar
    interresting thread.
    From a business perspective i would focus on a couple of issues i believe RIM should take care of.

    -we always discuss far more the tech stuff and this is normal as the nature of the company is tech but it is evident that great tech with bad business management equals failure, look at hp for example on how from market leader in schifi calcs back in tthe 80s it was a computer referral, got in the pc market strong (hp was equal to high quality) and now they have to go back to their origins basically having missed great part of broad pc consumer market. That said i believe as many state that PR is something RIM needs to work on asap but this is part of marketing mix re-organisation, something i believe the company is currently developing and as said prior from ppl in here, they will walk the walk on the whole package with bb10, not only technologically but the whole business deal.

    -customer care! This is a part highly overlooked bu RIM in the past years. I do notice some improvement there but i believe they have lots of ground to cover in that arena and gradually bring down the filtering in comms, which i believe has been an after effect of general multiarea failure of management. Many angry clients equals filtering in cs in some way in order to keep your people from going insane but this creates further frustration and in vicious circle fires up bad pr. I believe this to be a crucial point for Rim in the general perspective. As i said they have improved quite a bit lately.

    -another issue is regaining the retailers in the non american markets. They hopefully will launch and invest in that in their marketing mix and be able to make telecoms companies want to sell them by attracting mutual benefit while retaining final consumers added value services (BIS & BES in corporate).

    -diversify is the only way to go in my opinion. The android step was great perspective imo and needs to go on further. If strategic partnership expansion is in the agenda, this would make a huge positive difference if handled correctly. With win8 around the corner i believe a blend-in strategy would be more efficient. MS is not about excluding compatibility and while windows are dominant i believe that RIM should position carefully and choose allies and grade of relationship building. I would put an asap on that one.

    -also i believe that RIM has to expand on accessories availability in their market penetration. People have a hard time in finding accessories, even the basics, for their bb and pb devices and this is another arena of end consumer decision making factor used broadly in retail shops, i am not saying it is decisive but it is indeed important in my up to now understanding.

    Global marketing local adaptation: launching with huge intervals from market to market makes RIM loose momentum in overseas markets. I live in Greece and up to now (the whole crisis issue is shifting things obviously) but up to now, people were and still are mobile crazy. Greeks will change their phones 1 or even 2 times a year (many of them). Blackberry is almost absent and only vodafone manages somehow to provide alternatives while all other brands are up to date. This makes rim look outdated always as they usualy come late in the market, almost by one generation lag of their own products. I know it is a small market but it also is an example of bad marketing. My company in a multinational and being responsible for the greek market made me achieve great growth numbers in the current economic setup, just by attacking similar issues in my sector (not in telecoms or mobiles).

    -lastly, when you have loyal clients that are desperately looking to obtain access to your products and you even fail those faithful ones, be sure at some point the point of no return is near. They need to foster better relationships with phone carriers and retailers. People will not go after RIM, it has to chase its own clients and they neglected that because they focussed on handling the after-effects of bad management and technological arena and lack of time-plan compliance.

    I do believe RIM is moving now and it is commendable that they work on parallel innovation with restructuring and re-planning strategy at the same time. Cut them some slack as in business terms what they are doing the last 7 months imo is commendable and not many enterprises can pull it off as well as RIM is doing. That alone says a lot! Wait for bb10 not because is tech ultimate move but because it will be an all hands on deck "war" for RIM and i believe they will make a great stance and advance. They are on a tight space and spot now but i see clear signs of marching on, i would expect nothing less from a real innovator such as RIM who the last years has suffered bad decisions and organisation but has never lost the sparkle. I am not a fanboy and i am angry with the company as a consumer but being objective i guess we have to give them the merit they deserve, and be confident they are the first ones that need to take care of us, their client base....looking forward to the playout on this one and i would love to see them re-gain momentum!
    Just some extra thoughts that even though local in nature i believe are enlightening in terms of company organisational behaviour and i guess that dumping clients nowadays, and always, is something inexcusable.

    Ps:bis internet would for example be a great added value in current economic situation in greece, for cheap internet with bb7 via bis. Instead of taking advantage of that, RIM is loosing a unique opportunity for further market acquisition....
    Last edited by currentodysseys; 03-12-12 at 09:54 AM.
    03-12-12 09:28 AM
  2. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Wow, that was a mouthful. All great points, but this one might be the most significant:
    -lastly, when you have loyal clients that are desperately looking to obtain access to your products and you even fail those faithful ones, be sure at some point the point of no return is near. They need to foster better relationships with phone carriers and retailers. People will not go after RIM, it has to chase its own clients and they neglected that because they focussed on handling the after-effects of bad management and technological arena and lack of time-plan compliance.
    Huge point, IMO. RIM initially reached success by essentially building a better mousetrap, and they all came knocking at their door. Even as recently as a year ago, management seemed to still be in that mindset, that customers would simply come to them because of what RIM believed were the obvious advantages of the platform. But those advantages weren't so obvious, and in some cases weren't even advantages due in large part to changing customer needs and wants.

    I do believe RIM's management has gotten this message and has taken corrective action. What remains to be seen is how successful that action will be.
    currentodysseys likes this.
    03-12-12 10:34 AM
  3. anon(3896606)'s Avatar
    Apple was almost dead but they came back up, RIM can do this aswell!
    maddie1128 likes this.
    03-12-12 10:36 AM
  4. ubizmo's Avatar
    Without question, virtually everything hinges on the success of BB10. And I agree, RIm's future is still very much up in the air. It's also not beyond the realm of possibility that they execute BB10 flawlessly and still fail. A lot is going to depend on what Nokia delivers with WP and how it is received. But RIM is not a walking corpse. Not yet, anyway.
    Nokia is already putting a lot of resources into its WP lineup, in terms of promotion. And they are bundling Nokia Drive with their devices. Nokia Drive is a very good turn-by-turn navigation system. Other WP devices don't have it. WP in general is already getting very good reviews and customer ratings, even though it has a tiny market share. And the WP app ecosystem, in particular, has a lot of momentum, with over 70,000 apps already.

    Even so, WP can't do all that BBOS can currently do. But it has a strong start, and WP8 and BB10 are due to be released at around the same time. WP8 builds on WP7.5, whereas BB10 doesn't build on BBOS 7. So if BB10 hobbles coming out of the gate, Nokia could really surge at that point.
    currentodysseys likes this.
    03-12-12 10:58 AM
  5. currentodysseys's Avatar
    Wow, that was a mouthful. All great points, but this one might be the most significant:


    Huge point, IMO. RIM initially reached success by essentially building a better mousetrap, and they all came knocking at their door. Even as recently as a year ago, management seemed to still be in that mindset, that customers would simply come to them because of what RIM believed were the obvious advantages of the platform. But those advantages weren't so obvious, and in some cases weren't even advantages due in large part to changing customer needs and wants.

    I do believe RIM's management has gotten this message and has taken corrective action. What remains to be seen is how successful that action will be.
    Thank you! I apologise for the length as it was more a deposition of thoughts on the go rather than structured conclusions, with the hope of constructively provoking criticism and point for development (mini forumkeyboard storming ).

    It just stroke me reading about apple the perception of a post (i think mobile nations but not sure) yesterday, that apple made it because they know they could be beaten and because they have been beaten. This is not an apple vs rim issue, i bring it up just focusing on consciousness of vulnerability (irrelevant if apple has this or not). I believe that unconsciously RIM bet strong client base affiliation would get them through the rough times but it backfired and became a whole new deal all together. This is not to flame rim, it is a common scenario in many enterprises, but the point is as you said they need to pull this one off because when your great added value (and rim has big value in mailing bbm, bis amd bes), it is not enough for client base retention i believe you have to sound general alarm. The alarm has been rung and i do believe they are more than capable to pull this through but they have to select segmentation aftereffects carefully because i believe once they decide certain customer groups have to be overlooked, then all this negative pr and publicity will have food for the fire and will be hihly flamable, they need a contingency plan, and i say that knowing that i may be in a subgroup of customers that may suffer the negative effects... We ll see!

    Thanks again for taking the time with my loooooong post
    03-12-12 11:00 AM
  6. Economist101's Avatar
    Apple was almost dead but they came back up, RIM can do this aswell!
    Apple's computer business has never really recovered though. Sure, it's very profitable, but market share is just a slice of what it once was. If RIM is to do something similar to Apple, they're going to need products that drive revenue the way iOS products do. The iPhone alone generated $23+ billion in revenue during its last quarter; RIM's entire business generated around $5.2 billion.
    03-12-12 11:37 AM
  7. currentodysseys's Avatar
    Apple's computer business has never really recovered though. Sure, it's very profitable, but market share is just a slice of what it once was. If RIM is to do something similar to Apple, they're going to need products that drive revenue the way iOS products do. The iPhone alone generated $23+ billion in revenue during its last quarter; RIM's entire business generated around $5.2 billion.
    I agree to an extent. The difference is that apple maintained a strong client base with mac in the design and creative marketing/ video etc segment on their desktops. The assured these clients on this market.

    The phone and tablet for apple was all about creating a new market and setting the "standards" it was evolved diversification with market changing - creation. It is not the same for RIM.

    They can not create a new market easily and the resources they have are limited in comparison with the competition. They should diversify in my opinion but it is a totally different recipe and not comparable with apple, unless they bring out a total game changer (eg a phone that could substitute pc s in essence or something of that caliber).

    in that sense it is a totally different story. they have to go with the flaw and mutate, they cannot re-invent if they do not form alliances of great calibre because the competition has strong and more powerful assets... Unless they "re-invent" mobile phones somehow and this is where i think they are moving towards with tablet products complementing the phone innovation. Their choices of acquisitions kind of raise suspicion towards a direction of the sort??
    03-12-12 12:46 PM
  8. WES51's Avatar
    Over a month ago, I got an Android phone from my employer for work.

    My experiences in short: what a piece of garbage. It is a TOY and NOT a business tool.

    Now seeing first hand what the competition has to offer, I believe Blackberry has a long future, unless they mess up (and try to copy the android TOY CONCEPT).
    09-19-12 01:35 PM
  9. iankeiththomas's Avatar
    I realize that this is an older thread, but if the optimistic scenario is that RIM turns out like Motorola or Nokia, then the negative sentiment is, if anything, understated. Motorola would be on death watch right now if not for Google having bought it, and Nokia's best case scenario is probably "purchased by Microsoft."
    09-19-12 01:58 PM
  10. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Over a month ago, I got an Android phone from my employer for work.

    My experiences in short: what a piece of garbage. It is a TOY and NOT a business tool.

    Now seeing first hand what the competition has to offer, I believe Blackberry has a long future, unless they mess up (and try to copy the android TOY CONCEPT).
    LOL. What device did they give you?
    09-19-12 02:03 PM
  11. grunt0300's Avatar
    Just one opinion, and it doesn't rule out the nuclear option (total sell-off of company assets); but from a purely financial standpoint, there's a lot in here that makes sense. In particular, it notes past market leaders that also missed the iPhone threat, yet they too still live and breath. It also reaffirms something I've been suggesting in several of these threads: RIM does not need to climb back to the top of the mountain in order to survive. That is not to suggest it's going to emerge as the sole owner of a tiny little niche product, either. There's a pretty broad area between the two where RIM can continue to comfortably exist and maintain a degree of relevance.

    Just a little more food for thought.

    Research In Motion: Negative Sentiment Is Overdone - Seeking Alpha
    I suggested the possibility of Rim being sold a long time ago, and was met with hostility from the "Canadian Mafia". I was told that the Canadian Govt. would not allow the sale(but i don't believe it).
    09-19-12 02:16 PM
  12. WES51's Avatar
    LOL. What device did they give you?
    Samsung Galaxy II (I think, at least it is sure not the Galaxy III)

    The original communication apps are a joke. I guess there are better ones on the web, but come on: straight out of the box this machine is one totally disfunctional toy. It does not even have half of the functions of BB and most of the functions are even hidden and hard to access. Very poorly made and badly thought out.
    09-19-12 02:36 PM
  13. qbnkelt's Avatar
    The Galaxy devices, as many of the Android devices, do not appeal to folk who want to take a phone out of the box, turn it on, and go. Their appeal is in tweaking and perfecting the experience to make a uniquely personal device.

    I would not suggest one for business. To say nothing of BB's security features through BES, which are, in my opinion, unmatched based on its ability to track, monitor, and provide accountability as well as sync perfectly with Outlook.
    09-19-12 02:55 PM
  14. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    TouchWiz...
    09-19-12 03:21 PM
  15. WES51's Avatar
    ...Their appeal is in tweaking and perfecting the experience to make a uniquely personal device...
    YES, I kind of assumed that.

    The problem is that in a business environment such tweaking is limited for many reasons.

    Most importantly, because if I were to tweak this phone (install other eMail app etc.) and later there were a problem (e.g. an eMail or massage missed) with the app or the phone -> it would be on me (even if it was not my fault). Company could say I altered the device and I'm liable.

    So using the device with "out of the box" features, any arising problem with the device is on the company not me.

    Bottom line. As you said, Android is not great for business.

    It does not even come close to BB out of the box.
    09-19-12 03:31 PM
  16. WES51's Avatar
    And as far as touchscreen goes. On the BB, I can write almost as fast as my thoughts come to my mind. After a month of peactice, I find it almost impossible to write nearly as fast on the touchscreen.
    09-19-12 04:04 PM
  17. abwan11's Avatar
    A friend at work went from iphone to s2 and is completely paralyzed with this thing. He can't wrap his head around the way it works. He can make calls and that's it. He is absolutely frozen when he tries to do anything on it.
    09-19-12 05:18 PM
  18. Blacklatino's Avatar
    Over a month ago, I got an Android phone from my employer for work.

    My experiences in short: what a piece of garbage. It is a TOY and NOT a business tool.

    Now seeing first hand what the competition has to offer, I believe Blackberry has a long future, unless they mess up (and try to copy the android TOY CONCEPT).
    I'm an old-school techie. So, I use whatevers available that works for me. As a long-time BlackBerry owner, I also had to start using an agency phone that changed from an older BES 8300 to my personal 9700, to an agency iPhone lV to a Samsung G lll. Definitely not a BlackBerry, but, I do use mine as a business tool, games aren't allowed on mine. @49, aside from my wife.....I love having options. Unfortunately, we haven't had the option to but a new Blackberry (non-OS7) for awhile.
    Last edited by Blacklatino; 09-19-12 at 05:41 PM. Reason: Clarification
    09-19-12 05:34 PM
  19. Blacklatino's Avatar
    A friend at work went from iphone to s2 and is completely paralyzed with this thing. He can't wrap his head around the way it works. He can make calls and that's it. He is absolutely frozen when he tries to do anything on it.
    LOL. I have friends and coworkers that totally run from a BlackBerry saying it's too hard to use.
    09-19-12 05:39 PM
  20. qbnkelt's Avatar
    I find the idea of BB being hard to use really funny. I gave my mother an 8310, a 9700, and a 9900. She never even cracked open the manual. Not once.
    09-19-12 05:49 PM
  21. southlander's Avatar
    Most importantly, because if I were to tweak this phone (install other eMail app etc.) and later there were a problem (e.g. an eMail or massage missed) with the app or the phone -> it would be on me (even if it was not my fault). Company could say I altered the device and I'm liable.

    I hear ya. That's one if the main reasons I stopped using my droid razr maxx. The stock email was terrible at handling non google email accounts (go figure). I liked k9 pretty well. But then I just found the size of the device and the awkward placement of the android menu key down to the far left annoying -- since all the email apps need the menu key. It was like the phone was designed to make my messaging a chore whereas my torch makes it fun.

    One other issue I had not anticipated was how on my blackberrys I often choose to delete messages only at the handheld. I did not really see a way to do this on my droid. Yeah I am sure there's some app or something I could mess around with if I cared to.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9850 using Tapatalk
    09-19-12 06:12 PM
  22. WES51's Avatar
    One other issue I had not anticipated was how on my blackberrys I often choose to delete messages only at the handheld. I did not really see a way to do this on my droid. Yeah I am sure there's some app or something I could mess around with if I cared to.
    Exactly. While such details might sound unimportant for "home" users, they can make a huge difference for the business users.

    Another example is the poor eMail management of the default Galaxy eMail app.

    Inbox and Sent-Items are in separate folders which can't be united -> and why not. After sending eMails it is a pain in the to click through menus to get to the sent item box.

    Plenty of other small (and totally unnecessary) restrictions as well.

    It is as if Android was designed with the home user in mind. In it's out of the box stage, it is definately an inferior plattform.

    I just hope that the number of users that requires BB and relies on BB platform is going to be able to support BBs future.
    09-19-12 09:55 PM
  23. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    ^^^ While I respect your point of view, for my needs, I consider Android OS to be a better business platform. I won't pretend that I didn't try hard to make everything "BB-ish" at the beginning, but I eventually prefered Google's way of handling email. To be fair, every business account I use is Google Apps-based, so Android is a natural extension of that.

    I do not use Outlook, but I do recall not being happy with the way Android works with it.

    For example, I think IMAP (100% mirroring with archiving) is a very intuitive form of email management for the mobile user. After spending a while trying to replicate what Southlander was trying to do, I figured that archiving worked better for me.

    Depends on the needs, but we are one in the hope that RIM keeps trucking.
    09-19-12 10:49 PM
  24. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Oh yeah... I was not the biggest fan of K9... I thought it got too bloated, which was sad for me since it is based on the Gmail app, IIRC.
    09-19-12 10:50 PM
  25. trsbbs's Avatar
    A friend at work went from iphone to s2 and is completely paralyzed with this thing. He can't wrap his head around the way it works. He can make calls and that's it. He is absolutely frozen when he tries to do anything on it.

    Sort of like our current President couldn't work an IPhone the other day.

    Tim

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9850
    09-19-12 10:53 PM
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