07-15-11 06:11 AM
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  1. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I think RIM would rather sell more Torches than Curves, but that's just me.

    I know that sounds disingenuous, but look where their growth is centered at.
    That depends completely on the Ratio

    1 Million torches at 30% GM
    or 2 Million Curves at 25% GM

    from a production standpoint that first 2 million curves at 25% GM could lead to the next Million at 30% GM, AND have generated a greater revenue.

    though since we don't know the actual profit mix of the devices that RIM sells to the carriers, nor the volumes in which each prospective market is budgeted to achieve, this is all just "jibber jabber"
    07-12-11 07:58 AM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    issue is not new phones, RIM releases more phones than it's competitors. As a former BB user, their phones are simply inferior to what is out there. I couldn't see myself paying 500$ for a phone I knew wouldn't last a year, probably not upgradable when there were better options out there.
    9300s sell for 200 on prepay, no contract and 8520 for just over 100 no contract. At these prices they don't have much competition.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 08:01 AM
  3. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    issue is not new phones, RIM releases more phones than it's competitors. As a former BB user, their phones are simply inferior to what is out there. I couldn't see myself paying 500$ for a phone I knew wouldn't last a year, probably not upgradable when there were better options out there.
    RIM has released 2 new devices in 2011..

    HTC, Samsung, Sony, motorolla EACH have released more than that, in addition to them all being lumped under the same umbrella in terms of OS.

    as for inferiority, that is completely subjective, currently there isn't a phone on the market that is as useful for me, as the Torch, IF there was, I'd own it. as devices like my Playbook get paid for within a month of use when they actually bring positive results to my work flow.

    as for not lasting a year, the life span of my device is 9-18 months usually depending on if it is the primary or secondary device, just like notebooks, you don't buy a smartphone to upgrade it later, when the time to upgrade comes you buy a new device as the technology is always changing and advancing,

    I don't update my GPS Maps, I buy a new device when my map is out of date, might cost me $50 more a year, but each new device adds some features to make it worth the $50 per year in use. thus making it a good investment.
    Phil DeLong likes this.
    07-12-11 08:03 AM
  4. diapers's Avatar
    RIM has released 2 new devices in 2011..

    HTC, Samsung, Sony, motorolla EACH have released more than that, in addition to them all being lumped under the same umbrella in terms of OS.

    as for inferiority, that is completely subjective, currently there isn't a phone on the market that is as useful for me, as the Torch, IF there was, I'd own it. as devices like my Playbook get paid for within a month of use when they actually bring positive results to my work flow.

    as for not lasting a year, the life span of my device is 9-18 months usually depending on if it is the primary or secondary device, just like notebooks, you don't buy a smartphone to upgrade it later, when the time to upgrade comes you buy a new device as the technology is always changing and advancing,

    I don't update my GPS Maps, I buy a new device when my map is out of date, might cost me $50 more a year, but each new device adds some features to make it worth the $50 per year in use. thus making it a good investment.
    I'm just telling you from my end why I didn't go from a storm2 to a torch because the specs for the touch are indeed inferior and chances are it won't run os7. You may be completely fine with what RIM is offering you but a million others didn't.
    07-12-11 08:37 AM
  5. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Wouldn't you ladies and gents say that ecosysytem has something to do with the success of RIM's competitors? In other words, iTunes and Google's mobile suite.
    07-12-11 08:49 AM
  6. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Wouldn't you ladies and gents say that ecosysytem has something to do with the success of RIM's competitors? In other words, iTunes and Google's mobile suite.
    Ecosystem has more to do with the success than the specs IMO!!

    Only reason Android devices didn't sweep Apples iPhone is Apple's ecosystem is a better consumer ecosystem than googles and is more entrenched

    Though it is very much a mix between the RIM ecosystem, and the Keyboard that has kept RIM in the game.

    BES is an ecosystem, as is the BBM integration.
    I wouldn't trade those for iTunes, but I really strongly believe RIM must address itunes like features in their product line, content delivery is important.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 08:53 AM
  7. blackjack93117's Avatar
    The figure is suspect - mostly because it is too "round" of a number . More than a million? He doesn't have a more exact figure than that?
    What source did that come from - the author's head, a stab in the dark? Just because something is in print doesn't make it true. It's good to get an alternate source before spreading rumors.

    Why did this instantly remind me of the Democrat party?
    Always the mentions of how many jobs gained, but the number of jobs lost is never subtracted. Any mention of customers gained because of Playbook or other reasons?
    Last edited by blackjack93117; 07-12-11 at 09:01 AM.
    07-12-11 08:53 AM
  8. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I'm just telling you from my end why I didn't go from a storm2 to a torch because the specs for the touch are indeed inferior and chances are it won't run os7. You may be completely fine with what RIM is offering you but a million others didn't.
    I reiterate that inferiority is subjective

    Stating that the torch did not meet your needs is completely acceptable, and is very prudent that you realized that and purchased something different.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 08:56 AM
  9. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I'm just telling you from my end why I didn't go from a storm2 to a torch because the specs for the touch are indeed inferior and chances are it won't run os7. You may be completely fine with what RIM is offering you but a million others didn't.
    OS7 would bring no benefits to the Torch, it lacks the hardware for it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 08:57 AM
  10. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    The figure is suspect - mostly because it is too "round" of a number . More than a million? He doesn't have a more exact figure than that?
    What source did that come from - the author's head, a stab in the dark? Just because something is in print doesn't make it true. It's good to get an alternate source before spreading rumors.

    Why did this instantly remind me of the Democrat party?
    Always the mentions of how many jobs gained, but the number of jobs lost is never subtracted. Any mention of customers gained because of Playbook or other reasons?
    This was the twitt:

    "@BlackBerry: Pow! @BlackBerry continues momentum across EMEA with 1 Million+ new subscribers added in less than 3 weeks. #teamblackberry ^CH"

    Wasn't exactly a press release and I doubt they could fit full figures in that twitt.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by belfastdispatcher; 07-12-11 at 09:11 AM.
    07-12-11 09:08 AM
  11. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    OS7 would bring no benefits to the Torch, it lacks the hardware for it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Wait now!!

    OS7 if nothing else would allow me to have ONLY. "All" and "favourite" headings and not all the other crap, that alone would be worth the upgrade.

    before the shift from OS6.1 to OS7 there was talk of OS6.1 lite which is suspect would take into account the lower hardware devices.

    I would greatly hope for those who are keeping their Torch for another year that RIM continues with the 6.1lite development calling it just 6.1 and bring some of the UI enhancements that don't center around hardware graphic acceleration to the existing. OS6 user base

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 09:12 AM
  12. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Wait now!!

    OS7 if nothing else would allow me to have ONLY. "All" and "favourite" headings and not all the other crap, that alone would be worth the upgrade.

    before the shift from OS6.1 to OS7 there was talk of OS6.1 lite which is suspect would take into account the lower hardware devices.

    I would greatly hope for those who are keeping their Torch for another year that RIM continues with the 6.1lite development calling it just 6.1 and bring some of the UI enhancements that don't center around hardware graphic acceleration to the existing. OS6 user base

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I agree with that, an OS6 upgrade could and should do it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 09:16 AM
  13. i7guy's Avatar
    I'm just telling you from my end why I didn't go from a storm2 to a torch because the specs for the touch are indeed inferior and chances are it won't run os7. You may be completely fine with what RIM is offering you but a million others didn't.
    I actually agree with you, which is why my business device is a Blackberry. I guess by definition, since I view Blackberry as the best business devices all other devices are inferior.

    With an ipad 2 I almost have the best of both worlds.
    07-12-11 09:16 AM
  14. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I actually agree with you, which is why my business device is a Blackberry. I guess by definition, since I view Blackberry as the best business devices all other devices are inferior.

    With an ipad 2 I almost have the best of both worlds.
    But what about google turn by turn navigation!!! No one can be satisfied without that

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 09:31 AM
  15. ADGrant's Avatar
    But what about google turn by turn navigation!!! No one can be satisfied without that

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    If navigation is a priority, a Nokia E6 might be the way to go. It comes with free access to NavTeq maps for the life of the phone.
    07-12-11 10:26 AM
  16. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    But what about google turn by turn navigation!!! No one can be satisfied without that

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I actually much prefer navigating using blackberry maps, turn by turn navigation is great but I find you don't become aware of your surroundings or your route as much.
    If I navigate somewhere using turn by turn I find I need it a second time, if I use blackberry maps the second time I will not need gps navigation as I learned the route.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 10:30 AM
  17. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    If navigation is a priority, a Nokia E6 might be the way to go. It comes with free access to NavTeq maps for the life of the phone.
    . I was being facetious

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 10:33 AM
  18. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    I actually much prefer navigating using blackberry maps, turn by turn navigation is great but I find you don't become aware of your surroundings or your route as much.
    If I navigate somewhere using turn by turn I find I need it a second time, if I use blackberry maps the second time I will not need gps navigation as I learned the route.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    What?

    BD, you lost me completely. Please explain if you don't mind.
    07-12-11 10:46 AM
  19. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    What?

    BD, you lost me completely. Please explain if you don't mind.
    Ok, if you use just turn by turn navigation you are much less aware of the area you're in, you just listen to the directions.
    If you use blackberry maps you see the whole area you travel in and you're much more likely to learn the route so the second time you go to that address you'll not need navigation anymore. Maybe it's just me but I like to learn where I'm going, not just to get there.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-12-11 10:57 AM
  20. otacon#AC's Avatar
    Quite a few people reached upgrade time, and wanted 'new'. This isn't surprising, I concur.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Exactly why left RIM... and it wasn't something new, I wanted something that had features that every other smartphone on the market has had for at least a year. The Droid 3 fit the bill for me. I'll never give up a physical keyboard.
    07-12-11 04:13 PM
  21. iN8ter's Avatar
    I would say growth is where the demand is no?

    Smartphones or not, in UK at least, there's a huge demand for base model blackberrys and all you have to do is walk into a phone shop and see how many blackberry clones there are for sale, qwerty but of course, no BBM.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    You missed the point. deRusset got it, but his numbers are purely speculative so I can only speak to the methodology which makes business sense.

    However, the smartphone market is not like the dumbphone market where you sell high volumes of cheap phones that may or may not break in six months. Manufacturers sell smartphones almost like a subscription service. Their primary goal is to get you to buy one smartphone, and then to get you to buy their next (supposedly better) smartphone in 6-12 months. 2 Years at the most.

    Samsung sold ~10 million Galaxy S phones in 10 months, and now the Galaxy S II is selling like hotcakes. That's what they want.

    That's why Carriers had early upgrade discounts, but now that the smartphone market has grown to (comparative to a decade ago) MASSIVE scale, they simply don't need it. People in developed nations are already conditioned to upgrade frequently and many of them don't mind paying high prices for a new gadget (not all people, just way more than enough - even I have brought 1 $500+ phone per year for the past 3 years... but I am not oblivious to it...).

    Selling tons of cheap curves in markets where people don't have as much disposable income for frequent upgrades may make for a nice bump on the balance sheets this year, but it tapers off because some of those are emerging markets where people don't have as much disposable income as in some other countries (US, UK, CN, AUS, etc.).

    They won't be lining up at Best Buy for the New Curve model next year the way Apple fans do, and they certainly won't be buying a new phone every year like Apple and Android fans do. They are more concerned with "what works" than "what's cutting edge." That's why the Curve Sells well there, and is always a hugely popular phone in those markets... But how many of those people actually buy new phones as frequently as those in those countries I mentioned?

    I know my mom kept her Curve 83xx until it was falling apart, and she's sitting on money. Someone who isn't as well off it's about to replace a perfectly good phone. But the average iOS/Android geeks are more than willing to drop some cash for a nice phone. Look how many people on this forum have 2+ fairly recent and rather expensive smartphones listed as being owned by them :P
    Last edited by N8ter; 07-15-11 at 04:34 AM.
    07-15-11 04:23 AM
  22. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    You missed the point. deRusset got it, but his numbers are purely speculative so I can only speak to the methodology which makes business sense.

    However, the smartphone market is not like the dumbphone market where you sell high volumes of cheap phones that may or may not break in six months. Manufacturers sell smartphones almost like a subscription service. Their primary goal is to get you to buy one smartphone, and then to get you to buy their next (supposedly better) smartphone in 6-12 months. 2 Years at the most.

    Samsung sold ~10 million Galaxy S phones in 10 months, and now the Galaxy S II is selling like hotcakes. That's what they want.

    That's why Carriers had early upgrade discounts, but now that the smartphone market has grown to (comparative to a decade ago) MASSIVE scale, they simply don't need it. People in developed nations are already conditioned to upgrade frequently and many of them don't mind paying high prices for a new gadget (not all people, just way more than enough - even I have brought 1 $500+ phone per year for the past 3 years... but I am not oblivious to it...).

    Selling tons of cheap curves in markets where people don't have as much disposable income for frequent upgrades may make for a nice bump on the balance sheets this year, but it tapers off because some of those are emerging markets where people don't have as much disposable income as in some other countries (US, UK, CN, AUS, etc.).

    They won't be lining up at Best Buy for the New Curve model next year the way Apple fans do, and they certainly won't be buying a new phone every year like Apple and Android fans do. They are more concerned with "what works" than "what's cutting edge." That's why the Curve Sells well there, and is always a hugely popular phone in those markets... But how many of those people actually buy new phones as frequently as those in those countries I mentioned?

    I know my mom kept her Curve 83xx until it was falling apart, and she's sitting on money. Someone who isn't as well off it's about to replace a perfectly good phone. But the average iOS/Android geeks are more than willing to drop some cash for a nice phone. Look how many people on this forum have 2+ fairly recent and rather expensive smartphones listed as being owned by them :P
    It doesn't change the facts it's a supply and demand thing, people buy them, that can't be denied and there's more to it. People that buy cheap Curves are less likely to look after then as well as those that buy iphones and probably will not have insurance. They also don't take on a 2-3 years contract on them, 1 year the most and they will change them more often.
    Unlike your mum, teenagers are very rough on phones, I haven't seen one using a case yet, they just stick them in their pockets, even girls as they haven't got to the purse wearing stage

    With free phone and contracts starting at 15 monthly including some calls, sms and data they're in a market Apple doesn't provide for yet, maybe Android but they will be low poowered androids full of carrier crap, example Orange San Francisco

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-15-11 06:11 AM
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