[_StephenBB81]

If success for a product is that simple, dont you think RIM would have done that a long time ago?

There is MORE than just that,
as I said, was they continue to support they do make a good product, it isn't a product for me, but I can't say the iPhone is crap, it is probably the best first smartphone because of how it does things,

BUT Presentation and marketing is how you KEEP retaining the sales over and over.

Plus I think RIM is daft in their views of Marketing

[dandbj13]

Plus I think RIM is daft in their views of Marketing

On that, I think we can all agree. The problem with RIM's marketing, and so much else, is that they are used to selling to two customers: the carrier, and the IT department head. RIM has no idea how to sell to consumers, directly. RIM considers the sale complete when the carrier agrees to buy a million units, or the IT guy agrees to purchase a thousand handsets. Apple may not have invented smartphones, but they made smartphones a consumer electronic gadget. RIM sells to two customers; Apple sells to millions. There is a big difference in approach.

[_StephenBB81]

On that, I think we can all agree. The problem with RIM's marketing, and so much else, is that they are used to selling to two customers: the carrier, and the IT department head. RIM has no idea how to sell to consumers, directly. RIM considers the sale complete when the carrier agrees to buy a million units, or the IT guy agrees to purchase a thousand handsets. Apple may not have invented smartphones, but they made smartphones a consumer electronic gadget. RIM sells to two customers; Apple sells to millions. There is a big difference in approach.

That is something we can Agree on!

[howarmat]

apple has 3-4 main points going for it IMO

1) Great marketing, the TV commercials are superb.
2) word of mouth. I know several friends that have an iphone or macs and several coworkers have followed suit after having discussions and hands on time with the products.
3) the ecosystem. its huge now with everything and more. Movies, apps, games, music, books etc. They can provide everything.
4) A good product. The iphone 4 is sexy and powerful. Battery life is amazing. Great looking screen etc. Some people admittedly have problems with the reception but some of that is ATT also. I know several people that NEVER had the deathgrip problem.

truly the phone can sell itself in some respects. Everything helps grab even more people. the iphone changed the smartphone game. I honestly think the iphone is the best overall smartphone out there today also. The numbers dont lie, its the best single selling phone out there.

[brucep1]

There is MORE than just that,
as I said, was they continue to support they do make a good product, it isn't a product for me, but I can't say the iPhone is crap, it is probably the best first smartphone because of how it does things,

BUT Presentation and marketing is how you KEEP retaining the sales over and over.Plus I think RIM is daft in their views of Marketing

Putting a solid product on the market is the way you keep retaining sales over and over. For example, how many blackberry loyalists are on this forum? Is it because RIM had great presentation and marketing until last year, then decided to just stop?

When blackberry was selling well, it wasn't becuase of their presentation and marketing, I can tell you that. They made a great product, word spread, and everyone and their neighbor had a blackberry. THAT is how you sell a product.

[DenverRalphy]

OK folks, this is an interesting discussion, but one that I have seen on every non-Apple fansite. People are trying to figure out why the iPhone sells in the same circumstances where their product of choice does not. Eventually, it always comes down to Apple's marketing.

I don't buy this for a moment. Admittedly, I do not watch much TV. But what I do watch is not dominated by Apple commercials. I see plenty of ads for other phones that are loud and proud and funny and obnoxious. I see carrier ads that push everything but the iPhone with bogof deals up the wahzoo.

As for sales people, have you ever been to an Apple store? Have you ever seen anyone try to sell an iPhone there? No! They do not hire sales people; they hire customer service people. The Apple Store staff answer questions and take orders. The only thing they used to try to sell is Apple Care, and they don't even do that much anymore.

Anybody that walks into an Apple store with the intent to purchase a phone has most probably already decided they want to purchase the iPhone. For those that haven't yet decided but wish to check it out will receive a very thorough instructional demonstration. In either case, it was Apple's marketing that brought the consumer into the store (and they get a lot). Sure you really can't give "salesman" credit to the employees if the bulk of their customers enter the store with an intent to buy, but you can give them credit for ensuring a customer doesn't leave the store without a significant amount of very helpful information.

I have had a few occasions to go to AT&T stores, and I have never seen anyone there try to sell an iPhone. I don't believe Apple pays much, if anything by way of commissions. The salespeople would much rather sell an Android phone. They have no incentive to sell iPhones. People walk in and ask for the iPhone by name. No one "sells" an iPhone.

I have occasions which bring me into AT&T stores, since my two boys and a couple other family members use AT&T. The occasions where I enter to purchase or upgrade a device for them always begins with the salesman going straight for the iPhone. However, if/when I mention that I'm there to look at a different brand, I have to pass by the Apple display to get to them. AT&T isn't Apple, so mileage may vary on the salesperson experience. But you'll always see the Apple displays in the most prominent area of the stores.

[Venichie]

Were I work, we take training and are recommened to support Andriod/Apple products as our top suggested phones to people. I sell all the top 4 major carriers in the U.S., and all types of phones.
Honestly I don't see RIM appealing much to the new market anyway, even if the market supported them. Most people I've helped liked to get what most people have/recommened/used to. That just happens to be Andriod and Apple at the momment. I only see someone want a BB if they're trying something new by themselfs, if they had one, or find the design nice (and that last one if they don't know about phones.

People who know about phones will often choose Andriod/Apple because theye more well known. People who don't know, will often go with an Andriod/Apple, because its recommened.

Most of you forumers are what, around your 30s and up? Most people like to fit in and be supported fast with people with the same device. Not to mention they don't hardly switch a familiar choice, after sticking with it for 2 years...

I don't see BB0S7 being BB's prayers, but if they get a new device, costumers might go back to it... Because of familarity.
The average user doesn't go into a mobile retailer and ask what operating system does this run, but rather if this is an Andriod or Iphone? As said, most don't care about which phone they get, aslong as they're used to it and most others are compatible.

P.S. Most salesman actually like to sell easier and familair products (which I said is Apple/Andriod at the momment). Plus if we sale the top andriod phones, it gives us more of a spiff at this time. Then Iphones practicly sell themselfs so yeah (they give the least commission), we got these guys back as well.

[ADGrant]

Putting a solid product on the market is the way you keep retaining sales over and over. For example, how many blackberry loyalists are on this forum? Is it because RIM had great presentation and marketing until last year, then decided to just stop?

When blackberry was selling well, it wasn't becuase of their presentation and marketing, I can tell you that. They made a great product, word spread, and everyone and their neighbor had a blackberry. THAT is how you sell a product.

Their problem is they still make the same product but the market has changed.

[Rooster99]

Marketing has 2 components - company and user-driven. By company driven I mean advertising, PR, etc. By user-driven I mean user opinion and referrals.

Apple kicks RIM on company-driven. That's obvious. But then, they kick everyone on this and RIM in turn is kicked by everyone. That's the short version of what I read on here about the subject and I agree with it.

What no one seems to mention is the reaction of new iPhone users who have never owned an Apple product before. Every single person I know who's bought an iPhone has said the same thing - "I love it". The user experience is fantastic, and the enthusiasm that generates gets communicated to others.

The response I've heard from new Blackberry users? "How do I set this up?", or "How do I ...?". They find it complex and unintuitive to use. To be honest, so do I, even on OS6 after being a Berry user for multiple years on 3 different models. And OS6 is WAYYYYY better than OS5.

So yeah, you can talk about traditional, company-driven marketing. But RIM is really getting kicked by the relative user experiences. And especially these days, in the social media, Gen x/y/Milleniall marketplaces, peer referrals are everything.

The single best thing I got from all those "Open letters" from employees was the suggestion that senior RIM execs be forced to use devices from the competition. They should also be forced to use, for 3 months, every single new device RIM rolls out - starting from Day 1. Then they should be forced to answer one simple question - if you didn't work for RIM, would you recommend this to your friends?

Do you honestly think the Storm/Storm 2 would have lasted as long as it had if Jim and Mike had been forced to use them as their personal devices? Or even the Torch if Jim & Mike had been forced to use an iPhone or Android device for 3 months to they had some standard for comparison?

RIM, wake the **** up!

- R.

[southlander]

The real news is that with no new products RIM only lost 1 million customers.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[rollingrock1988]

And the 9900 is going to be "new" either. Same old crap. Nothing at all to be excited about.

P!ss off, all the android and iphones that have come out look the same. Big touch screens, black cases. That's it.

Their designs have been the same since inception so take that garbage a$s argument out of here.

[BlackStormRising]

apple has 3-4 main points going for it IMO

1) Great marketing, the TV commercials are superb.
2) word of mouth. I know several friends that have an iphone or macs and several coworkers have followed suit after having discussions and hands on time with the products.
3) the ecosystem. its huge now with everything and more. Movies, apps, games, music, books etc. They can provide everything.
4) A good product. The iphone 4 is sexy and powerful. Battery life is amazing. Great looking screen etc. Some people admittedly have problems with the reception but some of that is ATT also. I know several people that NEVER had the deathgrip problem.

truly the phone can sell itself in some respects. Everything helps grab even more people. the iphone changed the smartphone game. I honestly think the iphone is the best overall smartphone out there today also. The numbers dont lie, its the best single selling phone out there.

I completely agree with the points you've made here. The real mystery (given all that), is the phenomenal growth of Android which attacks iOS head on (unlike RIM) and the remarkable resiliency of RIM in the face of all this competition and adversity. Anyone who follows the blogosphere regularly would assume that RIM is teetering on bankruptcy. Fact is, they somehow find 13 to 14 million people to buy their phones every quarter with no apps, no ecosystem, no friends in the blogosphere, no sales people pushing their devices, no marketing, outdated hardware and an OS in its death throes and Wall st calling for new management. I would have expected a huge collapse in sales by now. Maybe next quarter?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[katiepea]

that is very true, from the way i see it though that seems like a very unsustainable ecosystem for RIM, they want to sell high end phones and most of those sales are overseas, the most popular device RIM sells is still the 8330. that thing is like 5 years old. they have the sales they have because they are cheap. android and ios are just getting to the cheap point, and the cultural shift that's happened in america will trickle down, just like it did for RIM years ago.

[katiepea]

P!ss off, all the android and iphones that have come out look the same. Big touch screens, black cases. That's it.

Their designs have been the same since inception so take that garbage a$s argument out of here.

you realize that that very same argument has been made about blackberry for years right? that they're re-releasing the same phone over and over again. yes android and iphones are candy bar shaped, that doesn't mean they're all the same.

[WillHeSurvive]

you realize that that very same argument has been made about blackberry for years right? that they're re-releasing the same phone over and over again. yes android and iphones are candy bar shaped, that doesn't mean they're all the same.

The same could be said about BlackBerrys!

[rollingrock1988]

you realize that that very same argument has been made about blackberry for years right? that they're re-releasing the same phone over and over again. yes android and iphones are candy bar shaped, that doesn't mean they're all the same.

That was my point.

It's a stupid, stupid argument towards all manufacturers and products.

[kevinnugent]

I completely agree with the points you've made here. The real mystery (given all that), is the phenomenal growth of Android which attacks iOS head on (unlike RIM) and the remarkable resiliency of RIM in the face of all this competition and adversity. Anyone who follows the blogosphere regularly would assume that RIM is teetering on bankruptcy. Fact is, they somehow find 13 to 14 million people to buy their phones every quarter with no apps, no ecosystem, no friends in the blogosphere, no sales people pushing their devices, no marketing, outdated hardware and an OS in its death throes and Wall st calling for new management. I would have expected a huge collapse in sales by now. Maybe next quarter?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

It would be interesting to get a breakdown of Blackberry sales e.g. Retail to individual vs. Corporate sales.

Businesses are slower to change.

[katiepea]

it's sounding like european numbers for RIM are going the way of USA now, it's inevitable, androids are getting dirt cheap, and RIM is spinning it's wheels, obviously if you can think about this rationally you know it's going to get a lot worse for RIM until it gets better, however these timelines speed up daily, all it takes is for a few phones to hit the right pricepoint for millions to bail, and RIM with no phones to offer right now, just wonder how well os7 can really hang on to anyone, i don't think you'll see anyone leaving ios or android for os7, and i don't really know if os7 will keep people there until qnx, maybe, we'll see, food for thought:
RIM, MMI: Canaccord Sees Further North America Share Loss - Tech Trader Daily - Barrons.com

The Slump in European Handset Sales - Barrons.com

[southlander]

But atleast people in the US market buy high end phones, which are way more profitable than selling many low ends phones.

Nokia is the perfect example, where RIM is headed if it start losing US market share.

RIM does not sell phones. It sells devices that are tied end to end to specific services. That's different than selling just cheap handsets.

[batrad]

Carriers need to get rid of the BES Tax to fully compete against the likes of Apple & Android devices.. There is already a burden on Companies to maintain a BES infrastructure and with cost cutting on everyone's Top Ten list, Co's are dropping BES ...

[1magine]

Carriers are not going to push BB devices. They are historically difficult to deal with (tech support), have high return and failure rates. If RIM would provide support similar to other handset manufacturers, maybe they would get pushed more; but they don't. OS7 is not likely to change that. It should certainly help stem the flow of BES losses, but only if the devices are truly rock solid. They are definitely better than what we have; but for those new to company issued BBs, they are going to be dissapointed. Several large firms have reported that at the last annual meeting, that non-share partners spent more time discussing a move from BBs as they did committee assignments. Trust me, that is a poor sign for RIM.

[Jake Storm]

Carriers are not going to push BB devices. They are historically difficult to deal with (tech support), have high return and failure rates.

Where are you getting that information? Consumer Reports concluded that BlackBerrys are the most reliable smartphone on the market.

Trust me, that is a poor sign for RIM.

Every time someone says that, it makes me suspicious of anything they say.
Everyone knows you are just here to stir the pot.

[iN8ter]

It has been mentioned, though not linked too,

RIM lost 1million in the US while gaining 6-8million globally over the same period.

RIM needs to release phones if they expect to have growth in the US market, if it isn't new it isn't selling

I think RIM would rather sell more Torches than Curves, but that's just me.

I know that sounds disingenuous, but look where their growth is centered at.

[belfastdispatcher]

I think RIM would rather sell more Torches than Curves, but that's just me.

I know that sounds disingenuous, but look where their growth is centered at.

I would say growth is where the demand is no?

Smartphones or not, in UK at least, there's a huge demand for base model blackberrys and all you have to do is walk into a phone shop and see how many blackberry clones there are for sale, qwerty but of course, no BBM.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[diapers]

issue is not new phones, RIM releases more phones than it's competitors. As a former BB user, their phones are simply inferior to what is out there. I couldn't see myself paying 500$ for a phone I knew wouldn't last a year, probably not upgradable when there were better options out there.