03-31-14 11:46 AM
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  1. tonyblaze's Avatar
    I was worrying about getting my hands on a Z10. It ended happily enough. A year later with my Z10 and I have no smartphone worries to speak of. I'm just loving it more everyday.

    Posted via CB10
    Same feeling here, though I am not happy about the ~50% price drop on the Z10 for me

    via Z10 running "Download+ for BB10"
    03-28-14 12:06 PM
  2. A895's Avatar
    I don't think it's really an oversimplification. I think it's really just that simple... I think that some people just want to complicate it so that they can find reason to accept the results and make it look less bad for their chosen platform/OEM.

    If people don't care about other platforms, because they think the one they're on works find for them, that's not ignorance. I don't expect an OSX user who is happy with their Mac to consider purchasing a Windows PC... That's called customer satisfaction and brand/UX loyalty, and it's what every OEM strives for - to be at the top of the minds of their customers, and hopefully be the "only choice" when it's time to buy a new device. After you've scored the initial sale, marketing loses its effectiveness on that user because they form first hand experiences with, and opinions on, your product/brand.

    It doesn't matter how great Samsung says "The Next Big Thing" is if the user had a poor experience on "The Last Big Thing" they used. That opinion will cancel out even the best marketing campaign, and their word-of-mouth accounts to their friends/colleagues will likely weigh heavily as well. The FUD campaigns we see on forums like this one are ineffective because real users of those devices (and especially the more recent devices, not the ones from half a decade ago) have completely different accounts, opinions, requirements, and likes.

    You hear it everyday on the streets. People say things like "I can't wait for the next Galaxy to come out, I'm gonna get that one," or "I'm waiting for the next iPhone release to upgrade."

    Also, this works on more than just a platform level. It also works within platform ecosystems. How do you think Nokia basically dominated the Windows Phone ecosystem, or Samsung continues to dominate Android? By being first: as in first in the minds of their users. I'm sure a lot of users have seen Apple, Nokia, LG, Motorola, Sony, and HTC phones in the carrier store... But if they want a Samsung, they will get a Samsung. People here may feel sensitive and get their feelings hurts when the Reps make a recommendations they don't like, but a lot of people in the real world shrug that off and simply get what they want. Those are just recommendations/ideas. I haven't spoken to anyone who had a phone choice made for them by a sales rep, they all made that decision themselves.

    Install Base does matter. Not only because a lot of features on these phones are limited to certain OEMs' devices, but because it allows users who do not use your platform to become acclimated to it simply by virtue of association with a lot of other people who use those devices. The cheapest way to trial a device, is to know someone who owns it or see a lot of people using them out and about. That is not in Blackberry's favor.

    The Swiping navigation on BB10 confuses most people I direct to their phones. This would be less of an issue if half the people they knew used BB10 device. They'd have been already known how to use the phone simply because they had already seen it being used so much by others.
    The logic in your posts is earth shattering. That's the main problem with these forums, a lot of misconceptions get thrown around along with generalizations.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    03-28-14 12:19 PM
  3. campbecw's Avatar
    Actually Samsung devices, feature wise, are some of the best devices out there. Samsung may throw everything I'm their phones, but that's what keeps consumers coming back. They have features that other phones don't have. From the SPen to the smart stay and smart pause it all is unique. They toned down touchwiz a lot with the Samsung S5 too. I still prefer Motorola over anything though.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    I would most certainly agree that no phone has more "features" than a Samsung, especially when you get into the Note series with the SPen, however, I would argue that most of these features (especially the air gestures and smart screens) get turned off by the vast majority of their users, as these are features that require such specific conditions in which to function properly that they cannot be relied on. The air gestures are gimmicks, at best. On the other hand, the SPen is actually function since the Note3.

    Regardless of features, I am NOT a believer that more features equals a better device. I find the vast amount of features on a Note3, confusing, at best. I teach people how to use smartphones for a living at I find it much much easier to teach an HTC One, or even an LG G2 to a new smartphone user than a Samsung. Smartphone virgins seem to have a much harder time conceptually understanding all the hidden menus and getting familiar with when you tap vs when you hold vs when you drag, etc, on Touchwiz than any other Android system in my experience. I know this wouldn't be the case with people who are familiar with smartphones, but when I want to measure how well an OS "fits together", I do it through the eyes of a Smartphone virgin, and Touchwiz fails in that respect. Even harder than BB10!
    03-28-14 12:33 PM
  4. A895's Avatar
    I would most certainly agree that no phone has more "features" than a Samsung, especially when you get into the Note series with the SPen, however, I would argue that most of these features (especially the air gestures and smart screens) get turned off by the vast majority of their users, as these are features that require such specific conditions in which to function properly that they cannot be relied on. The air gestures are gimmicks, at best. On the other hand, the SPen is actually function since the Note3.

    Regardless of features, I am NOT a believer that more features equals a better device. I find the vast amount of features on a Note3, confusing, at best. I teach people how to use smartphones for a living at I find it much much easier to teach an HTC One, or even an LG G2 to a new smartphone user than a Samsung. Smartphone virgins seem to have a much harder time conceptually understanding all the hidden menus and getting familiar with when you tap vs when you hold vs when you drag, etc, on Touchwiz than any other Android system in my experience. I know this wouldn't be the case with people who are familiar with smartphones, but when I want to measure how well an OS "fits together", I do it through the eyes of a Smartphone virgin, and Touchwiz fails in that respect. Even harder than BB10!
    I will say it is harder but, a lot of people like Samsung devices and keep going back for some more as evidenced as their sales every year.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    03-28-14 12:35 PM
  5. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    When Samsung got into the Android game, they tossed out some truly silly devices that garnered scorn. At some point, Samsung seemingly decided to change is strategy. It shamelessly "emulated" rivals, added some Galaxy-specific features and started living by a "more is better than less" which seems to be the antithesis of the Apple way.

    Samsung literally has a tablet in every size imaginable. TouchWiz is still abhorrent (IMHO), but is the dominant Android skin out there. The one year cycle for its flagship also seems to be well received, and hearkens to Apple.

    In other words, Samsung knows where its bread is buttered, and knows the highest form of flattery too. This is why I used to laugh at the notion of Tizen being a strong bargaining tool.
    03-28-14 12:45 PM
  6. randall2580's Avatar
    If you go back about 1.25 years (to the Oct/Dec quarter 2012) you will find a ton of posts here on CrackBerry that, despite all the polls that show many iPhone users will get the next iteration of the iPhone when it comes time to upgrade, they personally knew many folks who were "bored with the oldest OS in the smartphone industry and were champing at the bit for the new, wonderful BB10 OS to grab them and rip them out of their iOS device and back into the BB arena".

    The belief goes to "everyone is like me" a geek who wants the latest and the greatest and will run where ever that takes me is just not what I notice in my every day life. As the acknowledged geek in my home and office, most of the folks I have in my life wanted a smart phone, got it, and for the most part love it. They rarely if ever change the configuration and in fact if there is an update like iOS7 that does, they are up in arms. If they change the wallpaper to their kid or grandkids picture its as much change from the "out of the box" status as anyone will ever get.

    When it comes time because the phone was dropped, stopped working etc, they most likely will go to the next version of what they previously had because they wont have to learn a new OS all over again.

    I would love to see a poll with the percentage of change on the average smart phone as time goes on. It will become harder as time goes on. iOS in the car will become iOS in the home, and to some extent already has (see Apple TV - "no longer a hobby" - Tim Cook)

    BlackBerry has it's work cut out for it I said it then (in 2012) and I continue to believe it based on my own anecdotal evidence.
    03-28-14 01:04 PM
  7. EchuOkan1's Avatar
    I don't think it is so much about loyalty; in the case of iPhone users they have so much invested in the different gadgets (iTV, alarm stands, etc.) and apps that it is hard for them to actually leave even if they wanted to do it. Samsung is a bit different. They do not need gadgets that are brand specific like Apple, and they like the ability to customize their phones.

    Posted via CB10
    03-28-14 01:05 PM
  8. clickitykeys's Avatar
    The logic in your posts is earth shattering. That's the main problem with these forums, a lot of misconceptions get thrown around along with generalizations.
    The logic in his posts and yours is indeed earth-shattering because it is statistically illiterate :-) .

    Again, read the post in question. A generalization was precisely not what was being made. Tre and WikiCydia clearly understood the argument and its nuances, but you resolutely refuse to do so. Sigh.
    03-28-14 01:52 PM
  9. A895's Avatar
    The logic in his posts and yours is indeed earth-shattering because it is statistically illiterate :-) .

    Again, read the post in question. A generalization was precisely not what was being made. Tre and WikiCydia clearly understood the argument and its nuances, but you resolutely refuse to do so. Sigh.
    Called me illiterate nice.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    03-28-14 02:46 PM
  10. anon1727506's Avatar
    If you go back about 1.25 years (to the Oct/Dec quarter 2012) you will find a ton of posts here on CrackBerry that, despite all the polls that show many iPhone users will get the next iteration of the iPhone when it comes time to upgrade, they personally knew many folks who were "bored with the oldest OS in the smartphone industry and were champing at the bit for the new, wonderful BB10 OS to grab them and rip them out of their iOS device and back into the BB arena".

    The belief goes to "everyone is like me" a geek who wants the latest and the greatest and will run where ever that takes me is just not what I notice in my every day life. As the acknowledged geek in my home and office, most of the folks I have in my life wanted a smart phone, got it, and for the most part love it. They rarely if ever change the configuration and in fact if there is an update like iOS7 that does, they are up in arms. If they change the wallpaper to their kid or grandkids picture its as much change from the "out of the box" status as anyone will ever get.

    When it comes time because the phone was dropped, stopped working etc, they most likely will go to the next version of what they previously had because they wont have to learn a new OS all over again.

    I would love to see a poll with the percentage of change on the average smart phone as time goes on. It will become harder as time goes on. iOS in the car will become iOS in the home, and to some extent already has (see Apple TV - "no longer a hobby" - Tim Cook)

    BlackBerry has it's work cut out for it I said it then (in 2012) and I continue to believe it based on my own anecdotal evidence.
    BlackBerry's problem is that a big portion of the users.... HATED the devices. It makes a big difference when it's time to upgrade your device and you are happy with it and want then newest version of the same, or you hate it and don't want anything close to it. Not sure who JD Powers used in their survey and reports - either corporate types that were using 3 and 4 year old device, or maybe simple folks that bought a BB7 device and expect it to be able to do all the things that Android and Apple device of that time period could do..
    03-28-14 02:53 PM
  11. clickitykeys's Avatar
    Called me illiterate nice.
    Nope.

    The logic in Person X's posts is statistically illiterate.
    ----is different from----
    Person X is illiterate.

    Don't be so sensitive. Ideas should be open to examination and ridicule. If they hold up, all the better for them. If they don't, it might be better to change them.
    TgeekB likes this.
    03-28-14 02:55 PM
  12. madman0141's Avatar
    Well I guess that sux. I still remember when BlackBerry was the leader and then stopped leading and now are the punching bag for everyone who ever thought they were a tech journalist.
    clickitykeys likes this.
    03-28-14 03:01 PM
  13. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    That was LAST YEAR!

    The best thing about the future is that it only comes one day at a time.

    Do you even recall what you were worrying about one year ago today!?

    (not you,JD.. the OP! I type slow!!)
    Exactly, this was "LAST YEAR".

    This year, it wouldn't be 4 out of 5...it could even be far, far worse.

    According to T-mobile's recent trade-in experience (as in earlier this month), over 9 out of 10 (94% to be exact) of BB users switched platforms when given the chance. 94%! Less than 1 user in 10 stuck with BB!

    Yes, yes, there are a multitude of theories that people will try to rationalize that number with but even if it isn't truly representative of what is going on, what about another number: 3.4 million. That's the number of BBRY reported as the number of BBs sold in the most recent quarter of which only 1.1 million were BB10 devices.

    To put those numbers in perspective:

    Apple sold 51 million iPhones in a quarter
    Samsung sold 86 million smartphones in a quarter
    Huawei sold 16.6 million smartphones in a quarter
    Lenovo sold 13.6 million smartphones in a quarter

    So the "reality" keeps on getting grimmer.

    Restarting BB7 production won't do it. Launching a new "classic" device won't do it. Launching new low-end devices for the developing world won't do it. IF, and it's a BIG IF, BBRY wants to remain anywhere near relevant in the smartphone market, it needs to develop an effective and wide reaching sales and marketing strategy to actually SELL phones.

    Enough of the silly sucking and blowing (BB7 vs BB10 or consumer vs prosumer or hardware vs software is our future) strategic direction that has become the norm in Waterloo! BBRY needs some good, old fashioned roll up your sleeves focus on marketing and sales.
    Last edited by NYC10065; 03-28-14 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Typo
    madman0141 and johnnyuk like this.
    03-28-14 03:33 PM
  14. A895's Avatar
    Exactly, this was "LAST YEAR".

    This year, it wouldn't be 4 out of 5...it could even be far, far worse.

    According to T-mobile's recent trade-in experience (as in earlier this month), over 9 out of 10 (94% to be exact) of BB users switched platforms when given the chance. 94%! Les than 1 user in 10 stuck with BB!

    Yes, yes, there are a multitude of theories that people will try to rationalize that number with but even if it isn't truly representative of what is going on, what about another number: 3.4 million. That's the number of BBRY reported as the number of BBs sold in the most recent quarter of which only 1.1 million were BB10 devices.

    To put those numbers in perspective:

    Apple sold 51 million iPhones in a quarter
    Samsung sold 86 million smartphones in a quarter
    Huawei sold 16.6 million smartphones in a quarter
    Lenovo sold 13.6 million smartphones in a quarter

    So the "reality" keeps on getting grimmer.

    Restarting BB7 production won't do it. Launching a new "classic" device won't do it. Launching new low-end devices for the developing world won't do it. IF, and it's a BIG IF, BBRY wants to remain anywhere near relevant in the smartphone market, it needs to develop an effective and wide reaching sales and marketing strategy to actually SELL phones.

    Enough of the silly sucking and blowing (BB7 vs BB10 or consumer vs prosumer or hardware vs software is our future) strategic direction that has become the norm in Waterloo! BBRY needs some good, old fashioned roll up your sleeves focus on marketing and sales.
    This.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    anon(5828343) likes this.
    03-28-14 03:35 PM
  15. A895's Avatar
    Nope.

    The logic in Person X's posts is statistically illiterate.
    ----is different from----
    Person X is illiterate.

    Don't be so sensitive. Ideas should be open to examination and ridicule. If they hold up, all the better for them. If they don't, it might be better to change them.
    Not being sensitive. You should word your statements better so there is less confusion.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    03-28-14 03:37 PM
  16. johnnyuk's Avatar
    I lay the blame for 4 out of 5 BlackBerry users switching to another company's phone and platform at the feet of BBOS 7 and all the negative quirks and deficiencies both the OS and the handsets it ran on have. The vast majority of those users upgrading will have been upgrading from BBOS 7 handsets from late 2011 onwards.

    BlackBerry's biggest mistake over the last 3 years was relying on legacy BBOS for too long and not moving the phones on to a QNX based OS quickly enough after purchasing QNX in 2010, that's where the damage was done. The QNX PlayBook shouldn't have happened before the QNX based phones. BBOS 7 and the handsets it ran on should never have seen the light of day. As an owner of 2 BBOS 7 phones over the last 2 years and having used a further 5 models of BBOS 7 phone at work and, as a BESAdmin, having had to support other people at work trying to use them in a modern world that forever seemed to have moved on beyond the phone's capabilities, I can vouch for how their problems put me and the people I work with off BBOS for life.

    If I hadn't been a BlackBerry user for 12 years and a BESAdmin I'd have never bothered with BlackBerry 10. For the average consumer the frustration experienced using BBOS will have been enough to put them off buying BlackBerry ever again regardless of how new and improved BlackBerry 10 is.

    Not that the average consumer would have bothered to even find out what "new and improved" BlackBerry's were out there. It will have been a simple case of "BlackBerrys are garbage. I've already decided I'm getting a Samsung." or "BlackBerrys are garbage. I've already decided I'm getting an iPhone.".

    The damage was done years ago in the two-headed Hydra days of Lazaridis and Balsille as joint CEOs.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    anon(5828343) likes this.
    03-28-14 04:08 PM
  17. rajbir01's Avatar
    Having a BB10 device since it came out, it just makes no sense to me why people dont upgrade to it (lack of marketing and a few other things of course). It is the greatest phone I have ever owned and i've had iphones and android. Would never switch back to the other unless my life depended on it or BB announced that every BB device was going to self-destruct. If people try it, they will love it.
    03-28-14 04:56 PM
  18. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Having a BB10 device since it came out, it just makes no sense to me why people dont upgrade to it (lack of marketing and a few other things of course). It is the greatest phone I have ever owned and i've had iphones and android. Would never switch back to the other unless my life depended on it or BB announced that every BB device was going to self-destruct. If people try it, they will love it.
    Because perception and lack of marketing !!!! It has nothing to do with the devices themselves !!! And everything to do of how people see BlackBerry...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    03-28-14 05:06 PM
  19. MartyMcfly's Avatar
    Because perception and lack of marketing !!!! It has nothing to do with the devices themselves !!! And everything to do of how people see BlackBerry...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    I beg to differ. Consumers are not stupid (despite what most cb members think). The z10/q10/z30 are weak when compared to other flagships.


    Sent from iOS using Tapatalk
    03-28-14 05:19 PM
  20. A895's Avatar
    I beg to differ. Consumers are not stupid (despite what most cb members think). The z10/q10/z30 are weak when compared to other flagships.


    Sent from iOS using Tapatalk
    Well that is true. The blackberry 10 devices pale to android devices such as the S5, M8, and even the Note 3, LG G2, and the Moto X.

    I also want to point out like you said, Consumers aren't as easily manipulated as these "sales rep said BlackBerry is bad" stories that are popping up saying.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    anon(5828343) likes this.
    03-28-14 05:37 PM
  21. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    I beg to differ. Consumers are not stupid (despite what most cb members think). The z10/q10/z30 are weak when compared to other flagships.


    Sent from iOS using Tapatalk
    IPhone 5s is weak in many areas and Moto X was released near the same time as the Z30 both of which use the same SoC..... so no the consumer doesn't know much...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    mnc76 likes this.
    03-28-14 05:37 PM
  22. bakron1's Avatar
    I am a business person myself and I understand the task that Mr Chen has in front of him. I think the sale of the commercial real estate was a smart move and cash is king in the current market. Leasing your office space is the smart move.

    I think BlackBerry OS10 would do allot better if it was marketed properly. This OS is a new concept and needs to marketed using a "hands on approach", you also need to get the app ecosystem where you can go to the store and download apps, whether it's native or Android without side loading, period.

    I think this is the areas that the folks up there in Waterloo need to focus on in the consumer product end. BES is a different animal and needs to be handled differently then the consumer products division.

    Every person I have showed my z10 and z30 to has really like the device. I have sold 4 of the 5 z30's I have bought in the last month to folks who just had to have it after I demo ed the device for them. So far everyone of them love the z30 and rave about it. So I don't want to hear that the device doesn't sell.

    I would gladly be an Ambassador for the brand here in the USA, if the folks up there in those corporate offices would back up our efforts to promote the products here? That means demo devices, travel and commitment from all parties involved.

    I was a 100% loyal Apple IOS user who came back to BlackBerry because of 10.2.1.2 and I am not looking back. There are going to be bumps and valleys in the road to profitability and stability for BlackBerry, but it should be a fun ride. Just my input for what's it worth.



    Send from my z30 on T Mobile USA (10.2.1.2160)
    clickitykeys likes this.
    03-28-14 05:47 PM
  23. A895's Avatar
    IPhone 5s is weak in many areas and Moto X was released near the same time as the Z30 both of which use the same SoC..... so no the consumer doesn't know much...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    The Moto X is so different from the Z30 on the inside, that I'm flabbergasted you suggested otherwise.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    03-28-14 05:54 PM
  24. MartyMcfly's Avatar
    IPhone 5s is weak in many areas and Moto X was released near the same time as the Z30 both of which use the same SoC..... so no the consumer doesn't know much...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    I'm not just talking about on the hardware front. iOS/Winmo/google all have superior email services/maps/app stores etc. People take these things into consideration before making a big purchase.


    Sent from iOS using Tapatalk
    03-28-14 05:57 PM
  25. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    The Moto X is so different from the Z30 on the inside, that I'm flabbergasted you suggested otherwise.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    The cpu and gpu is identical.... what internals are you talking about...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    03-28-14 05:58 PM
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