10-14-09 11:05 PM
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  1. cedar's Avatar
    Being a VZW customer, I've never owned a Wifi BlackBerry, so stay with me here. As I understand it, BlackBerrys have a lower data speed than other smartphones because the data is routed through RIM's servers first. Do I understand that correctly?

    So then if that's true, will the Wifi on S2 behave the same way, or is that data accessed directly? That'd be even better if the Wifi access was going to be direct on the S2, letting us take full advantage of the speed increase over 3G for web browsing and video streaming.

    Sorry if it's been answered before, but all the wifi questions I found were the standard fare concerning data plans and whatnot...
    10-13-09 03:01 PM
  2. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    No, WIFI will just give you another "path or route" to take to get to RIM's core network. The issue of proxy throughput and control via RIM's services will still be there. While there will be some speed differences with some things, I wouldn't expect major differences really. You're basically subletting a lower latancy network (WIFI/Internet cloud) for a higher latency network (cellular network, which may be saturated by other subscribers).

    One big benefit of the S2 with WIFI, is you'll be able to do data and voice at the same time now (if attached to both cell network and wifi network/hotspot)... before, you couldn't.
    10-13-09 03:08 PM
  3. blue_and_bold's Avatar

    One big benefit of the S2 with WIFI, is you'll be able to do data and voice at the same time now (if attached to both cell network and wifi network/hotspot)... before, you couldn't.
    Has this been verified I though it was different between cdma and gsm?
    10-13-09 03:17 PM
  4. cedar's Avatar
    Has this been verified I though it was different between cdma and gsm?
    That's been verified; I knew about that. Wifi patches the hole in CDMA where voice and data couldn't happen simultaneously.

    Thanks for the response JRSC. That sucks that it still gets routed around like that. So I guess I shouldn't go expecting speed increases, really.
    10-13-09 03:21 PM
  5. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Has this been verified I though it was different between cdma and gsm?
    According to some people, yes. It's not what you think... it's not both voice and data across the CDMA channel at the same time. It's voice on CDMA and data on the WIFI portion of the network connectivity on the S2. In other words, if your WIFI is not connected to a valid Internet gateway, you will have the same restriction you have now with the S1.
    10-13-09 03:23 PM
  6. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    That's been verified; I knew about that. Wifi patches the hole in CDMA where voice and data couldn't happen simultaneously.

    Thanks for the response JRSC. That sucks that it still gets routed around like that. So I guess I shouldn't go expecting speed increases, really.
    It'll be faster, but I don't think it'll be seriously much faster. The one VERY BIG thing that people ALWAYS overlook in terms of Blackberry handset functionality is that it's not like ALL the other smartphones in the world. It CANNOT work without RIM's BIS/BES/NOC infrastructure. It depends upon service books (which inturn are simply router statements to IPs belonging to either a carrier's provisioning servers or RIM's internal servers for whatever function it needs). Basically, if RIM was forced for whatever reason to shut down opperations tomorrow, ALL Blackberries in the world WOULD STOP functioning. You could make voice calls on them, but data would be non-existant.

    Other smartphones don't work like this. They aren't like the old dumb terminals on networks, they are like regular PCs. All they care about is a TCP/IP connection to the carrier and a gateway to the Internet, once that's established, they do all their own work... browser rendering, DNS lookups, etc. This is one of my biggest gripes with the BB platform, but it's also the core design that allows for some of it's security functions to work (i.e. traffic/functionality control via server policies and process logging of anything on the handset by administrators of the private device as well as RIM).
    10-13-09 03:29 PM
  7. RickyRoss10's Avatar
    Hey Civic, what do you do? I only ask because I always wonder how some people here know so much about their phones and, well, you seem like you know more than just about anyone I've seen on here.

    Do you have a tech related job? Or do you just read everything there is about BB's and related technology?

    Sorry if that's too personal of a question.
    10-13-09 03:30 PM
  8. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Hey Civic, what do you do? I only ask because I always wonder how some people here know so much about their phones and, well, you seem like you know more than just about anyone I've seen on here.

    Do you have a tech related job? Or do you just read everything there is about BB's and related technology?

    Sorry if that's too personal of a question.
    I'm in the IT industry...
    10-13-09 03:36 PM
  9. RickyRoss10's Avatar
    I'm in the IT industry...
    Thank you.

    Again, sorry to pry.
    10-13-09 03:39 PM
  10. moosc's Avatar
    This is why I might go motorola android. Having a bb data connection. It annoys me when I loose bis. I have been using opera when I don't have bis. As a IT what are your thoughts on the Motorola sholes android/google platform?
    It'll be faster, but I don't think it'll be seriously much faster. The one VERY BIG thing that people ALWAYS overlook in terms of Blackberry handset functionality is that it's not like ALL the other tsmartphones in the world. It CANNOT work without RIM's BIS/BES/NOC infrastructure. It depends upon service books (which inturn are simply router statements to IPs belonging to either a carrier's provisioning servers or RIM's internal servers for whatever function it needs). Basically, if RIM was forced for whatever reason to shut down opperations tomorrow, ALL Blackberries in the world WOULD STOP functioning. You could make voice calls on them, but data would be non-existant.

    Other smartphones don't work like this. They aren't like the old dumb terminals on networks, they are like regular PCs. All they care about is a TCP/IP connection to the carrier and a gateway to the Internet, once that's established, they do all their own work... browser rendering, DNS lookups, etc. This is one of my biggest gripes with the BB platform, but it's also the core design that allows for some of it's security functions to work (i.e. traffic/functionality control via server policies and process logging of anything on the handset by administrators of the private device as well as RIM).
    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-13-09 04:10 PM
  11. forkup's Avatar
    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think all data went thru the BIS servers. Many apps I use have network settings that allow you to choose BIS or tcp/ip and others. Many times I've had trouble getting web pages to load with the BB browser yet could run bolt or opera and get the pages easily. Another app that comes to mind with these network settings is BBWeather.
    10-13-09 04:23 PM
  12. spampeg's Avatar
    I'm in the IT industry...
    Psh. You're a geek, admit it. I don't post much, but I read a ton on here... and anyone who talks about getting T1 lines turned up, configuring Cisco's, you knew what a VLAN was, Group Policies and you seem to know BES/BIS inside and out. That's all meant in the nicest way possible ;-)

    And damn, noob me didn't realize even the wifi connection is routed through RIM as well, that's just plain asinine for BIS connections. So what happens if I have a wifi enabled BB with no carrier service, and want to browse the web or use something on non-standard ports (since BIS seems to block that too)... does it not work at all, since the phone isn't active, or does RIM continue to be my proxy?
    10-13-09 04:36 PM
  13. ultraray's Avatar
    I thought the only data that went thru BES/BIS servers was your email services, BBM, updates, and the Blackberry Browser.

    It was my understanding that the "Internet Browser" uses a direct connection to the web, rather than going thru RIM's NOC. If that's not the case, then what is the use of having both browsers?
    10-13-09 04:47 PM
  14. peter0328's Avatar
    I think that WiFi can go around the BIS limit. Tethering does not use the BIS servers either. If it did then you would not be able to download anything larger than 6MB lol.
    10-13-09 04:54 PM
  15. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think all data went thru the BIS servers. Many apps I use have network settings that allow you to choose BIS or tcp/ip and others. Many times I've had trouble getting web pages to load with the BB browser yet could run bolt or opera and get the pages easily. Another app that comes to mind with these network settings is BBWeather.
    You're absolutely right. Some things can use the normal TCP stack on the phone, but not everything. Rule of thumb so far has been, if it has a service book associated with it, it must go through RIM.

    I can't speak for the S2 yet, but T-Mobile BBs with WIFI have a service book for it, and I haven't had enough time to mess with them because we don't use the WIFI due to some policies in place. I will be looking into this further on all WIFI capable BB to be sure I'm not thing out my ****, but the bottom like is, WIFI is just your connection out to the web and inturn RIM's servers, so CDMA or WIFI doesn't much matter what you use if the BB Browser and email you need as services require the response of a BIS/BES server.... see what I'm getting at?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-13-09 05:16 PM
  16. BigMike99's Avatar
    It'll be faster, but I don't think it'll be seriously much faster. The one VERY BIG thing that people ALWAYS overlook in terms of Blackberry handset functionality is that it's not like ALL the other smartphones in the world. It CANNOT work without RIM's BIS/BES/NOC infrastructure. It depends upon service books (which inturn are simply router statements to IPs belonging to either a carrier's provisioning servers or RIM's internal servers for whatever function it needs). Basically, if RIM was forced for whatever reason to shut down opperations tomorrow, ALL Blackberries in the world WOULD STOP functioning. You could make voice calls on them, but data would be non-existant.

    Other smartphones don't work like this. They aren't like the old dumb terminals on networks, they are like regular PCs. All they care about is a TCP/IP connection to the carrier and a gateway to the Internet, once that's established, they do all their own work... browser rendering, DNS lookups, etc. This is one of my biggest gripes with the BB platform, but it's also the core design that allows for some of it's security functions to work (i.e. traffic/functionality control via server policies and process logging of anything on the handset by administrators of the private device as well as RIM).
    This is why I quit using BB and this is why I'm never going back - this is why the IPhone has crushed RIM and why Android will. BB's are choked and double choked by VZW then the RIM servers ...
    Why would you ever get a Slowberry?
    I'm still pissed I need to buy out of my S! for a IPhone .

    Be smart folks ...
    10-13-09 05:52 PM
  17. Meinbeast's Avatar
    Why the **** do people like you read forums about **** you dont like. Get on the iphone forums and talk to people there.

    We dont give a **** about what you say its getting old.
    10-13-09 05:57 PM
  18. NMRayn's Avatar
    my question is, if i dont want wifi, should i just get a storm 1?
    10-13-09 05:58 PM
  19. calizae74's Avatar
    @CIVIC...So this is what I'm gettin (correct me if I'm wrong also) If you really care about security on the net get a BB. If you want to be safe with data and emails get a BB. Am I right? What are you thoughts about other PDA's/smartphones/Iphone's/Sidekicks? Esp when sidekick lost their data.
    10-13-09 06:00 PM
  20. calizae74's Avatar
    Honestly...IMO....if it's wireless it's slow. Technology is coming up to speed to where wireless is fast. I'd rather be steady and secure than fast left open. I don't have a problem with speed on my S1. Just wish I mad more memory and no battery pulls. That's my only complaint. I don't care about apps cause I only use them 30% of time any way.



    This is why I quit using BB and this is why I'm never going back - this is why the IPhone has crushed RIM and why Android will. BB's are choked and double choked by VZW then the RIM servers ...
    Why would you ever get a Slowberry?
    I'm still pissed I need to buy out of my S! for a IPhone .

    Be smart folks ...
    10-13-09 06:12 PM
  21. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    @CIVIC...So this is what I'm gettin (correct me if I'm wrong also) If you really care about security on the net get a BB. If you want to be safe with data and emails get a BB. Am I right? What are you thoughts about other PDA's/smartphones/Iphone's/Sidekicks? Esp when sidekick lost their data.
    WinMo is just as safe. So is the iPhone and so is (well, I still have testing/certification to do on Android, but still). Attache via SSL to an ActiveSync enabled Exchange server for the enterprise is just as secure. For that matter, SSL on POP3 polled account from either of these handsets is just as secure. I mean, think about it... if it's not secure on that, neither would it be from a PC to the same servers/accounts... nes pas?
    10-13-09 09:53 PM
  22. ellisz's Avatar
    I want the wifi as my house has has spotty cell signal in some places. At least I will have access to the web when I am in a dead spot in my house.
    10-13-09 10:14 PM
  23. Brandon26pdx's Avatar
    I might be lambasted here, but servers are servers right? Is there any reason to believe RIM's are any slower or any more vunerable to service outages than any of the other bajillion internet servers out there?
    10-13-09 10:20 PM
  24. Shadow.xXx's Avatar
    Well, no, but which type of connection would you rather have for your cell phone to give you Internet and Email access?

    BB = BB -> cell company -> RIM BIS/BES/NOC servers -> email or website servers

    Other Smartphone = Device -> cell company -> email or website servers

    It's about limiting the "middle man" principal that RIM's core design is based on. More points of failure = more chances of failure. For a BB, all that stuff up there must be up and working. For another smartphone brand, it just needs cell access with working carrier gateway to the web cloud. Less isht to go wrong.
    You are somewhat correct, Civy, but those NOC's are what give your BB's their "legendary" abilities. It isn't the BB that does PUSH e-mail, it's the NOC. I totally see your point, though. If those NOC's go down, so will your service. But RIM has fail-safes for those incidents, which I'm sure you already know. Hopefully, they won't go the way Danger did -- now that was an epic fail to the max. I do agree that more points of failure increase the odds of an problem occurring, but it's something we have to live with as BB users.
    10-14-09 03:39 AM
  25. NasaRacer's Avatar
    Well we have seen a few BIS outages over my 11months of sporting a Storm 1. And it is quite frustrating. You have great Verizon coverage but a worthless Blackberry because of the BIS being down. Effecting every Blackberry across all wireless carriers.

    And normally BES is still up and working.

    I think in the somewhat near future BIS will become a thing of the past for the more "Consumer" related Blackberry products and carrier services.

    And BES will remain for the corporate world. It is almost a no brainer. The average consumer has no idea what BIS is anyway. So if for the millions of consumer Blackberries out there eliminating the middle man (BIS) would most likely improve the performance of the devices from the consumer's view and save RIM a ton of money.

    Hopefully when they do that they will also come up with a true IMAP email application. That I would love!!
    Last edited by NasaRacer; 10-14-09 at 05:49 AM.
    10-14-09 05:46 AM
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