[Troy Tiscareno]

Smartphone companies are in business to make money. I'm sure you don't work all day long and tell your company to just go ahead and keep your paycheck, that you're doing it for the little guy who really needs the product of your labors but can't or won't afford it.

And in order for smartphones to be profitable, they either have to be simple and basic, or they have to sell in fairly large numbers. BB PKB phones were neither, and they haven't been profitable since 2011. There was a lot of hope, and people who were sure that "there was pent-up demand and people would get tired of slabs, etc. etc.", but that's not the reality. The reality is that PKB phones are now the realm of Kickstarter projects - and its questionable whether they've made enough money even there to continue.

I get that some of you don't like it - I've had products that I liked canceled too - but that doesn't change the financial realities of the situation, and sooner or later, companies are not going to be willing to continue losing money in order to give you the products a few of you want. Hell, if BB hadn't signed such crazy, overly-optimistic parts contracts, they'd likely have exited the smartphone market in 2014.

You don't see many Model T's on the freeway today - wooden wheels and spring-only suspension (no shock dampeners) and 25 MPH top speed from the factory doesn't lend itself well to modern driving. The fact that any are still on the road is due to the fact that they aren't as dependent on outside infrastructure as a cell phone, which is entirely reliant on cellular data networks. For BBOS, that's going to obsolete all the remaining phones in North America in the next year or so. That's inevitable. It's actually surprising that they've lasted as long as they have.

[idssteve]

No one that I know of has EVER expected ANYone, ANYwhere to eat red just to satisfy our needs. We are willing to PAY or do without. Which is exactly why each experiment with unproven PKB form factors has generated such reservation from MY corners of the market. Talk about eating red! Lol.

My ONLY point is that the last "profitable" BB device from 2011 has NEVER been re-visited. PKB by itself can NOT afford adequate market interest if it is so poorly configured that it fails to deliver performance expectation of users the product is targeting. If not, it just eats red without satisfying ANYone...

Roadway infrastructure represents no small investment. It was developed in a day before Qualcomm, tho. Lol. Ford's T tiller throttle still survives today. Might trackpad and/or pkb survive a century from now? I'm not about to conjecture a century out based on THIS past decade. Lol.

I will say that, imo, the PROVEN pkb form factor (Bold) has NOT been attempted. Not saying it's a sure fire to succeed BUT it was perfectly predictable that EVERY other attempt since 2011 would be, and was, a sure fire failure. Imo fwiw.

[idssteve]

Btw, members here have succeeded in operating Bolds without BIS. Since so, hard to believe BB couldn't have done likewise but better?? If they wanted to. Of course, at the time they were trying to extort BBOS userbase into BB10 (Barely Baked When?) They had NO interest in that. But, it's THEIR company so... Here we are... Lol.

[Chuck Finley69]

Btw, members here have succeeded in operating Bolds without BIS. Since so, hard to believe BB couldn't have done likewise but better?? If they wanted to. Of course, at the time they were trying to extort BBOS userbase into BB10 (Barely Baked When?) They had NO interest in that. But, it's THEIR company so... Here we are... Lol.

I enjoyed my 9900 and keep buying the various iterations of all that was and is the remnants of BlackBerry hardware.

If any carrier rolled out an updated 9900 running the latest BIS or BES with at least an updated browser, I’d buy it, however it couldn’t be a single device for most people.

How many prosumers really care? Without carrier support, it’s DOA since I need data. At the end of the day, specialized hardware is just that and nobody ever wants partners if unnecessary. It’s really no different than Android/iOS debate. If 99% of the planet is sold and serviced, that last 1% has to stand alone profitably on it’s own with BlackBerry alone providing everything which essentially would have been a 9900 running BB10 and we know that’s not feasible.

[idssteve]

I enjoyed my 9900 and keep buying the various iterations of all that was and is the remnants of BlackBerry hardware.

If any carrier rolled out an updated 9900 running the latest BIS or BES with at least an updated browser, I’d buy it, however it couldn’t be a single device for most people.

How many prosumers really care? Without carrier support, it’s DOA since I need data. At the end of the day, specialized hardware is just that and nobody ever wants partners if unnecessary. It’s really no different than Android/iOS debate. If 99% of the planet is sold and serviced, that last 1% has to stand alone profitably on it’s own with BlackBerry alone providing everything which essentially would have been a 9900 running BB10 and we know that’s not feasible.

Yep, it's all pretty fubar atp. Even if BB10 cudB shoehorned into something resembling 9900, I don't see physical space to fit 1:1 screen over toolbelt...?? Could BB10 do 4:3? Such a shame Classic had to be another oversized shot in the dark experimental red feast... Lol.

I can't expect my Porsche to fill same usecase as my Case lol. Both have proven their value. I wouldn't want to be forced to choose which one I'd want to sell... Lol. Likewise, until someone figures out how to fit a 6 inch box into a 3 inch package, multiple carry represents a valid productivity multiplier. Imo. Given the remote locales I frequent, carrying an example of VZW and ATT improves odds of critical availability, at least. But then I'm not concerned about being called a nerd for using multiple devices. Been called far worse. Lol.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

I enjoyed my 9900 and keep buying the various iterations of all that was and is the remnants of BlackBerry hardware.

If any carrier rolled out an updated 9900 running the latest BIS or BES with at least an updated browser, I’d buy it, however it couldn’t be a single device for most people.

How many prosumers really care? Without carrier support, it’s DOA since I need data. At the end of the day, specialized hardware is just that and nobody ever wants partners if unnecessary. It’s really no different than Android/iOS debate. If 99% of the planet is sold and serviced, that last 1% has to stand alone profitably on it’s own with BlackBerry alone providing everything which essentially would have been a 9900 running BB10 and we know that’s not feasible.

After the Torch and they got touch fixed so they didn't need a "sure press" screen... if they had released a STORM 3 (or something without the baggage of the STORM name)... I wonder what the majority of BlackBerry buyer in 2011 and 2012 would have chosen.

Reality is by 2012, majority of sales had moved to markets where BIS still had a value. And they were moving a lot more cheap Curves than Bolds - and even more used devices. I suspect price and BIS were the main factors... if folks had a choice of a low cost slab from BlackBerry in 2011/2012???

The reason the Q10 was such crap... BlackBerry knew that PKB wasn't going to sell 10's of millions of units anymore.

[Chuck Finley69]

Yep, it's all pretty fubar atp. Even if BB10 cudB shoehorned into something resembling 9900, I don't see physical space to fit 1:1 screen over toolbelt...?? Could BB10 do 4:3? Such a shame Classic had to be another oversized shot in the dark experimental red feast... Lol.

I can't expect my Porsche to fill same usecase as my Case lol. Both have proven their value. I wouldn't want to be forced to choose which one I'd want to sell... Lol. Likewise, until someone figures out how to fit a 6 inch box into a 3 inch package, multiple carry represents a valid productivity multiplier. Imo. Given the remote locales I frequent, carrying an example of VZW and ATT improves odds of critical availability, at least. But then I'm not concerned about being called a nerd for using multiple devices. Been called far worse. Lol.

I carry dual-carry an iPhone XR dual eSIM and LG V30 for total of three numbers. This week, I ran out the door and shoved my two phones in my pocket and realized in an office lobby, I had grabbed KEYone and Motion from coffee table. I already had my other phones in my pocket. Accidentally quad-carrying....

[idssteve]

After the Torch and they got touch fixed so they didn't need a "sure press" screen... if they had released a STORM 3 (or something without the baggage of the STORM name)... I wonder what the majority of BlackBerry buyer in 2011 and 2012 would have chosen.

Reality is by 2012, majority of sales had moved to markets where BIS still had a value. And they were moving a lot more cheap Curves than Bolds - and even more used devices. I suspect price and BIS were the main factors... if folks had a choice of a low cost slab from BlackBerry in 2011/2012???

The reason the Q10 was such crap... BlackBerry knew that PKB wasn't going to sell 10's of millions of units anymore.

Lol, did all of BB10 achieve 10M sales? Last I heard (about 2015 ?) They were ok with stranding 10's of millions of bbos userbase. My company's proven strategy to migrating legacy industrial controls userbase is to preserve ux familiarity to minimize learning curve pain of upgrade. Total fail on BB10 there. Imo.

That said, Z10 released in 2011 with 10.3.3 might've had a chance? 2013 @ 10.0 was a lost cause. Z or Q, Imo.

[idssteve]

I carry dual-carry an iPhone XR dual eSIM and LG V30 for total of three numbers. This week, I ran out the door and shoved my two phones in my pocket and realized in an office lobby, I had grabbed KEYone and Motion from coffee table. I already had my other phones in my pocket. Accidentally quad-carrying....

Lol... I've quad carried... 99, Classic, LE and D60... During intense plant startups... 9900 left hand, Classic right hand. D60 & LE and Toughbook on lap. Or table, if lucky. Lol.

I still advocate double fisted productivity. Great for coordinating multiple crews at multiple points in a plant. D60's great for viewing photos. K2LE for android stuff.

Lotsa capability to explore in this stuff. Never felt like I could make much headway educating & advocating the possibilities... Lol. How would "prosumers" even know to care about the possibilities if enthusiasts like us fail to advocate possibilities?

[anon(8946998)]

The reason the Q10 was such crap... BlackBerry knew that PKB wasn't going to sell 10's of millions of units anymore.

My awesome Q10 is my daily driver and most certainly is not "crap."

If anybody is wondering why Crackberry is quiet nowadays, look no further than negative comments such as this.

[Chuck Finley69]

My awesome Q10 is my daily driver and most certainly is not "crap."

If anybody is wondering why Crackberry is quiet nowadays, look no further than negative comments such as this.

The Q10 was crap if you came to purchase brand new in 2013 expecting anything like previous BBOS hardware.

[anon(8946998)]

The Q10 was crap if you came to purchase brand new in 2013 expecting anything like previous BBOS hardware.

I bought my Q10 new. It is not crap. iPhone users like you will be the demise of Crackberry.

[donnation]

I've been a member here since this forum since 2007 and I still drop in but don't post much anymore. Not much to post about really. Even Kevin doesn't drop in or comment on BlackBerry anymore so I think the writing from a device standpoint is on the wall. When TCL said it was over that was pretty much the death knell.

[BeautyEh]

Here's a general question for the thread, do you guys expect BB apps like the Hub to continue long term?

[BeautyEh]

To me as somewhat of a tech outlier, I will not let go of the idea that streamlining *some* of our accelerated technology curves does not necessarily mean the "tech" was better or more advanced - there was, instead, an evolutionary survival-of-the-fittest type context in which capitalism met convenience.

We still by and large use keyboards to type with - for computers. Brand spanking new, MacBook Pro, super expensive? Got a keyboard. No one types on glass.

MP3's the "technology" that for 99% of music listeners (especially Millennials), vs WAV files of CD's and larger uncompressed sounds of Vinyl records? NOT an "advance" of technology - indeed, a winnowing out process. Something actually decidedly worse in terms of quality - if much more convenient by virtue of being smaller. See the famous case of Microwave vs actually cooking healthy food. Ha.

Point being....to have a keyboard with tactile sensation that actually doubles as a mouse and a fingerprint reader....for some of us, THIS is the WAV file, typing on glass is the MP3. It still is hard for me to believe the bigger companies didn't keep it around as an option; I think they realized just not giving people an option would play a role in changing their expectations. Troy feel free to weigh in!

[BeautyEh]

I LOVED my Q10 but in retrospect, BB should've started the series with the Classic. That screen size and keyboard, while maybe not making a huge difference in sales, was a better product out of the box and had the toolbelt.

[Chuck Finley69]

I bought my Q10 new. It is not crap. iPhone users like you will be the demise of Crackberry.

I bought my AT&T Q10 brand new at introduction back in 2013 and it was awful compared with the 9900, it's predecessor. Maybe you got a special new Q10 that nobody else got back then. I had to struggle with no tool belt and 10.1.X which could only be worse on the Z10 which isn't saying much.

How does saying what I and many others think matter to CrackBerry as long as we follow the rules here?

[Chuck Finley69]

I LOVED my Q10 but in retrospect, BB should've started the series with the Classic. That screen size and keyboard, while maybe not making a huge difference in sales, was a better product out of the box and had the toolbelt.

The Classic was a better device only because of 10.2.1 instead of 10.1.X at time. While not having a tool belt sucked, it could eventually be overcome. At introduction, 10.xXxX and no ecosystem is what really sucked.

The Z10 and Q10 battery life was also bad compared with Leap and Classic later.

[elfabio80]

The Classic was a better device only because of 10.2.1 instead of 10.1.X at time. While not having a tool belt sucked, it could eventually be overcome. At introduction, 10.xXxX and no ecosystem is what really sucked.

The Z10 and Q10 battery life was also bad compared with Leap and Classic later.

I never missed the toolbelt. I almost never used with the Classic.

[anon(5597702)]

The Classic was a better device only because of 10.2.1 instead of 10.1.X at time. While not having a tool belt sucked, it could eventually be overcome. At introduction, 10.xXxX and no ecosystem is what really sucked.

The Z10 and Q10 battery life was also bad compared with Leap and Classic later.

I've used the Q10 and Classic extensively and didn't notice a discernible difference between battery life. Only fair comparison is having the exact same backup/OS version on each. I also can understand why there was some outcry about no toolbelt in initial BB10 devices but the OS was designed to be heavily gesture based anyways.

[anon(5597702)]

I never missed the toolbelt. I almost never used with the Classic.

Same. Good device but the toolbelt kinda felt like an unnecessary tack on for some workflows in BB10.

[Chuck Finley69]

I've used the Q10 and Classic extensively and didn't notice a discernible difference between battery life. Only fair comparison is having the exact same backup/OS version on each. I also can understand why there was some outcry about no toolbelt in initial BB10 devices but the OS was designed to be heavily gesture based anyways.

Had BB10 succeeded as intended, there would've been Z10, Q10 for initial PKB holdouts, Z30, Z50 and the eventual VKB successors.

All the retro features, like PKB in Q10, tool belt in Classic, for two specific examples, were simply reactive improvements over the Q10 and just part of the overall attempt to save the company while exiting mobile business.

[donnation]

Here's a general question for the thread, do you guys expect BB apps like the Hub to continue long term?

To answer your question, no, I don't think it will continue long term. BlackBerry will phase it out like they've done with other aspects of their software. I think it will just quietly fade away.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Q10 was crap in that it really wasn't what BlackBerry users expected in 2013.... and thus didn't caputure much of the existing userbase. Now how much of that was the OS and how much the hardware???

Many were still shocked at this lack of BIS...
No keyboard shortcuts....
Double typing issues....
No trackpad or the rest of the toolbelt being MIA...

Some things were fixed with software later on, and I know many love their Q10 for what it is. But for the tens of millions looking for an upgrade from what they currently had... the Q10 didn't come off as an upgrade.

[anon(8946998)]

I bought my AT&T Q10 brand new at introduction back in 2013 and it was awful compared with the 9900, it's predecessor. Maybe you got a special new Q10 that nobody else got back then. I had to struggle with no tool belt and 10.1.X which could only be worse on the Z10 which isn't saying much.

How does saying what I and many others think matter to CrackBerry as long as we follow the rules here?

Why not be positive? This is an exciting time to be a Blackberry user; many people are buying used BB models on eBay or are rediscovering that BB in their desk drawer. They be coming to Crackberry for help or a sense of community. Do you think they want to hear that their "new" Blackberry is crap?