[jrmcafee]

That's been the plan before and including the Key series an it failed. We've learned there's no "business" users demographic large enough to support PKB anymore. Most "business" users just use some VKB now anyway. Every BlackBerry titled VKB has been ultimate failure.

Are you thinking something different that Onward could do that's different this go around?

I can't speak for the broad delegation but it seems a lot of previous devices have tried to 'me too' certain trends, starting with the original Storm. The Classic does almost everything right IMO and I'm ok with a non-16:9 ratio as a business user. There are lots of media consumption/creation devices with that ratio. My primary objectives for a phone are productivity, security, battery life, and pocketability. Not looking for the next iPhone killer. I've had every iOS model from 3GS through the XS and I'm back to a Classic. I'm BBOS > Android and I know that's not realistic, but I'd love to see a highly modded Android that functions much like BBOS and has a niche range of 3rd party apps that are business class.

Posted via CB10

[phuoc]

I can't speak for the broad delegation but it seems a lot of previous devices have tried to 'me too' certain trends, starting with the original Storm. The Classic does almost everything right IMO and I'm ok with a non-16:9 ratio as a business user. There are lots of media consumption/creation devices with that ratio. My primary objectives for a phone are productivity, security, battery life, and pocketability. Not looking for the next iPhone killer. I've had every iOS model from 3GS through the XS and I'm back to a Classic. I'm BBOS > Android and I know that's not realistic, but I'd love to see a highly modded Android that functions much like BBOS and has a niche range of 3rd party apps that are business class.

Posted via CB10

Agreed! If, I want to watch a video, it's on a tablet not a phablet. A slightly larger Classic will work for text,talk and info.

[Chuck Finley69]

I can't speak for the broad delegation but it seems a lot of previous devices have tried to 'me too' certain trends, starting with the original Storm. The Classic does almost everything right IMO and I'm ok with a non-16:9 ratio as a business user. There are lots of media consumption/creation devices with that ratio. My primary objectives for a phone are productivity, security, battery life, and pocketability. Not looking for the next iPhone killer. I've had every iOS model from 3GS through the XS and I'm back to a Classic. I'm BBOS > Android and I know that's not realistic, but I'd love to see a highly modded Android that functions much like BBOS and has a niche range of 3rd party apps that are business class.

Posted via CB10

Well, all you’ve done is describe the Key family with the BBApp Suite already preinstalled

BBOS and BB10 user base is too small to cater to for Android developers to hope to use BBAndroid next and that was four years ago.

Just keep using the iOS apps

[jrmcafee]

Well, all you’ve done is describe the Key family with the BBApp Suite already preinstalled

BBOS and BB10 user base is too small to cater to for Android developers to hope to use BBAndroid next and that was four years ago.

Just keep using the iOS apps

I have no major complaint with the Key line. I had a KeyONE and despite its weight I generally liked it. Seemed a little awkward in the hand. It seems the Key2 has addressed this and my suspicion is that Onward will probably iterate on that general design. Like others I think a toolbelt instead of the fixed Android nav and a thinner bezel design would be a general win. It will still be bigger overall than what I'd prefer but a PKB+Android has industrial design tradeoffs.

Posted via CB10

[Casualballer]

I have no major complaint with the Key line. I had a KeyONE and despite its weight I generally liked it. Seemed a little awkward in the hand. It seems the Key2 has addressed this and my suspicion is that Onward will probably iterate on that general design. Like others I think a toolbelt instead of the fixed Android nav and a thinner bezel design would be a general win. It will still be bigger overall than what I'd prefer but a PKB+Android has industrial design tradeoffs.

Posted via CB10

Given that android has now moved to gesture controls (imo one of the better things that bb10 nailed) perhaps now is the time to give up on the tool belt for Android idea? I loved my bold back in the day but the fluidity of gestures is a whole different and, to me at least, a more enjoyable system. I wonder if something could be worked out with the capacitive keyboard and A10 gesture systems?

[idssteve]

I, personally, find gestures a half solution to a non problem. Same with capacitve KB. WHO, in 2012, was clamoring to be rid of the "awful, slow and distracting" ToolBelt? What problems were Dan Dodge & company seeking to solve by getting RID of such a valued part of BB PKB experience on Q?

Gestures get part of a job done, and are certainly better than NOthing, but are they BETTER than a TrackPad & ToolBelt? Naving an OS is ONE thing. How about selecting text for edit? Yes, I know, many get it done "just fine" without a toolbelt. But done BETTER? Shouldn't BETTER be a criteria for a step "forward"?

Shouldn't "newer" technology IMPROVE functionality? Grateful as I can be for gestures, while wishing for a ToolBelt, I've never found gestures to be a genuine improvement over ToolBelt. All these years and I STILL select text for edit way faster, with less mission distraction, on my ToolBelt equipped Bold than ANY gesture equipped "modern" stuff my hand has learned. And I've made it a mission to LEARN. New AND old. Communications are THAT critical to MY use case. Classic's TB implementation is a distant second, btw. Fwiw.

Once again, it's not a matter of learning the newer BETTER way. The newer way is simply not better, imo. Just adequate for most. "Adequate" and "just fine" and "ok" are NOT words associated with enthusiastic niche. .

The dedicated nav keys on Key series are a perfect spot for a toolbelt. I'd forlornly hoped maybe K3 might include that? Lol. A reasonably well implemented ToolBelt might've helped tame the grossly oversized K series, imo.

[roba5263]

The only thing that constantly annoys me about my tcl 10 pro is the software keyboard. I don't want to lose that screen size though. Priv 2.

[Hydde]

slider form factor is the way and is plain obvious.

average user out there doesnt care about pkb. it looks awkward to have one in 2020. but woth the priv you can hide the pkb in its normal form factor and have a beautiful screen

if onward aims their product just to the bb community, it will sell peanuts and thats the truth.

The key series and godbforbid the passport form are things no one outside the bb community wiill use and you alk have to accept this instead of suggesting onward to build a phone just "for you" and making thwm go bankrupt after jus one phone.

[conite]

slider form factor is the way and is plain obvious.

average user out there doesnt care about pkb. it looks awkward to have one in 2020. but woth the priv you can hide the pkb in its normal form factor and have a beautiful screen

if onward aims their product just to the bb community, it will sell peanuts and thats the truth.

The key series and godbforbid the passport form are things no one outside the bb community wiill use and you alk have to accept this instead of suggesting onward to build a phone just "for you" and making thwm go bankrupt after jus one phone.

Onward is aiming this device to Bank of America's specific requirement.

No one outside of the BlackBerry faithful would have any use for a slider (they only need a slab), and it will alienate most people within the faithful (added weight). A slider is a non-starter.

[Gene Fells]

Onward is aiming this device to Bank of America's specific requirement.

No one outside of the BlackBerry faithful would have any use for a slider (they only need a slab), and it will alienated most people within the faithful (added weight). A slider is a non-starter.

That's your opinion. When I listened to the crackberry podcast with the CEO, there were definitely hints that new form factors were being considered.

A slider is a starter, if it can provide the best parts of keyboard shortcuts along with decent sized screen real estate. Device balance will be a significant issue. They acknowledged that also in podcast.

Hopefully that "Top-heavy Management Group" will surprise us all with a new design that satisfied most groups.

Posted via CB10

[Chuck Finley69]

That's your opinion. When I listened to the crackberry podcast with the CEO, there were definitely hints that new form factors were being considered.

A slider is a starter, if it can provide the best parts of keyboard shortcuts along with decent sized screen real estate. Device balance will be a significant issue. They acknowledged that also in podcast.

Hopefully that "Top-heavy Management Group" will surprise us all with a new design that satisfied most groups.

Posted via CB10

Ultimately, what gets produced will be wherever the indicated largest order comes from. Either a large enterprise order like rumored BOA or if some large carrier orders to support that Enterprise or some other different one. I'd seriously doubt that anything consumer really matters until some bulk commitments are made.

[G_Unit MVP]

Priv, with a decent SOC and a keyboard a touch better than the original one would be my choice.

[Mirko935]

No one outside of the BlackBerry faithful would have any use for a slider (they only need a slab), and it will alienate most people within the faithful (added weight). A slider is a non-starter.

I really don't believe that the first part is true. I know quite a few people that had HTC, Nokia and Sony Ericsson sliders, back when they were producing them; and very reluctantly switched to full touchscreen phones when sliders disappeared from the market around 2012.

Also, pretty much everyone that has seen my Priv was impressed by it, the only problem was its price and the fact that it wasn't available with any carrier deals where I lived.

Btw, these are the keyboard stats from my wife's Priv. Notice the 97% PKB usage. And that is from a person that never before owned a phone with a full QWERTY keyboard or a BlackBerry, and has owned "slabs" and was used to typing "on glass" for almost a decade. Had it been a non-slider PKB, she certainly wouldn't have bought it. She also didn't care much for Key1 and 2. But she was the one who quite a bit excited sent me this news about a new BB phone coming in 2021 and very likely will buy it in case it's a slider.

What I'm trying to say is that a slider is the only form that would have any chance as a "regular consumer phone" and it might even attract people that never before had a PKB phone. A non-slider that has a screen across only 2/3 of its front is sure to alienate anyone who appreciates a big screen, and nowadays that's literally everyone, be it because of Netflix, Instagram or simply for browsing. Regardless of how much many e-mails or messages one sends in a day, unless it's a purely "business phone", the regular smartphone user spends much more time looking at the screen than typing. Therefore the PKB should be an addition, not a huge compromise.

[Chuck Finley69]

I really don't believe that the first part is true. I know quite a few people that had HTC, Nokia and Sony Ericsson sliders, back when they were producing them; and very reluctantly switched to full touchscreen phones when sliders disappeared from the market around 2012.

Also, pretty much everyone that has seen my Priv was impressed by it, the only problem was its price and the fact that it wasn't available with any carrier deals where I lived.

Btw, these are the keyboard stats from my wife's Priv. Notice the 97% PKB usage. And that is from a person that never before owned a phone with a full QWERTY keyboard or a BlackBerry, and has owned "slabs" and was used to typing "on glass" for almost a decade. Had it been a non-slider PKB, she certainly wouldn't have bought it. She also didn't care much for Key1 and 2. But she was the one who quite a bit excited sent me this news about a new BB phone coming in 2021 and very likely will buy it in case it's a slider.

What I'm trying to say is that a slider is the only form that would have any chance as a "regular consumer phone" and it might even attract people that never before had a PKB phone. A non-slider that has a screen across only 2/3 of its front is sure to alienate anyone who appreciates a big screen, and nowadays that's literally everyone, be it because of Netflix, Instagram or simply for browsing. Regardless of how much many e-mails or messages one sends in a day, unless it's a purely "business phone", the regular smartphone user spends much more time looking at the screen than typing. Therefore the PKB should be an addition, not a huge compromise.

With all the competition looking for any differentiation features, if the slider added new profitable customers, then some OEM would have done this when PRIV and BlackBerry exited four years ago.

The PKB was the statistical favorite or TCL would have offered slider instead of Key2 at time. I own 2 PRIV and still use one as hobby device on my coffee table. It’s a Jack of all Trades and Master of None unfortunately.

[phuoc]

Just noticed a vote for the Style/folding phone. Of all the BB's I've owned, the Style was my favorite. Compact and easy to carry.

[Mirko935]

With all the competition looking for any differentiation features, if the slider added new profitable customers, then some OEM would have done this when PRIV and BlackBerry exited four years ago.

The PKB was the statistical favorite or TCL would have offered slider instead of Key2 at time. I own 2 PRIV and still use one as hobby device on my coffee table. It’s a Jack of all Trades and Master of None unfortunately.

Who? The big players don't care about the single-digit percentage of users that would prefer a PKB, the small manufacturers can't afford development of a device that targets only that small percentage. And at the time it was generally viewed as uncool to have anything but a slab so everyone was directing resources at "cool" things like a bezel-less display and making devices as thin as possible, for whatever reason. Now that some alternative form factors are slowly popping up, an otherwise "cool phone" with a hidden PKB may or may not bring some cash in 2021, but a PKB instead of one third of the display at a time when everyone constantly stares at their phone display certainly won't.

Priv unfortunately had no chance of succeeding. Despite having a very good camera, excellent innovative keyboard and equally excellent sliding mechanism, one of the best displays on the market etc. As the first BB Android device it was only natural that a few bugs would pop up here and there and that it wouldn't be as optimized as devices from the big players. A few alleged quality issues were also something every reviewer pointed out as if it was the end of the world (honestly, had I not have read that the battery cover bends when depressed I would never have noticed it. Still don't know that ridiculous "issue" is supposed to affect my usage of the device). SD808 was a disaster in itself, prone to overheating and inefficient. The average Android/Apple user in 2016 still thought BB phones were "those phones with no apps". The average alleged BB "fan" hated it because it ran Android and because it didn't look like the classic BB phones. So even if one had some interest after initially noticing the device somewhere, regardless of if they'd visit an Android forum, CrackBerry or read "unbiased" reviews, they'd mostly find various forms of hate, for the device, its chipset, OS, the company...

I think TCL simply tried to go the low-risk route with devices which would be as close as possible to old BB form-factor to cater to the BB "fanbase" and maybe build from there. Obviously that wasn't the smartest route.

[conite]

I think TCL simply tried to go the low-risk route with devices which would be as close as possible to old BB form-factor to cater to the BB "fanbase" and maybe build from there. Obviously that wasn't the smartest route.

There were about 5-7 million BB10 users at its peak. If they couldn't win over more than 1 million of them, how would they have expected to convince the masses of happy non-BB users?

[mundo472]

no slider...too many moving parts. key style with full width kb (like k2le) but capacitive. no bezel-full screen, virtual buttons smaller bottom chin. top tier oled

[mundo472]

why on earth would we need a toolbelt and navpad ? virtual buttons so full screen and less top heavy and the pkb is capacitive. that's the form. I love the pp but k2 won me over

[xjawax]

I really like the Classic form factor, but in this day and age it would be not selling I guess. Hard for me because I never got a Key2 or Priv. So let's go old school and wild. I want a Storm form factor but this time done right and otherwise an updated Classic.

Posted via CB10

[mundo472]

and yes, I played with and was charmed by the Priv. I agree with much if what the previous poster said, but I stand by the K3 form, at least as the first phone

[Chuck Finley69]

Who? The big players don't care about the single-digit percentage of users that would prefer a PKB, the small manufacturers can't afford development of a device that targets only that small percentage. And at the time it was generally viewed as uncool to have anything but a slab so everyone was directing resources at "cool" things like a bezel-less display and making devices as thin as possible, for whatever reason. Now that some alternative form factors are slowly popping up, an otherwise "cool phone" with a hidden PKB may or may not bring some cash in 2021, but a PKB instead of one third of the display at a time when everyone constantly stares at their phone display certainly won't.

Priv unfortunately had no chance of succeeding. Despite having a very good camera, excellent innovative keyboard and equally excellent sliding mechanism, one of the best displays on the market etc. As the first BB Android device it was only natural that a few bugs would pop up here and there and that it wouldn't be as optimized as devices from the big players. A few alleged quality issues were also something every reviewer pointed out as if it was the end of the world (honestly, had I not have read that the battery cover bends when depressed I would never have noticed it. Still don't know that ridiculous "issue" is supposed to affect my usage of the device). SD808 was a disaster in itself, prone to overheating and inefficient. The average Android/Apple user in 2016 still thought BB phones were "those phones with no apps". The average alleged BB "fan" hated it because it ran Android and because it didn't look like the classic BB phones. So even if one had some interest after initially noticing the device somewhere, regardless of if they'd visit an Android forum, CrackBerry or read "unbiased" reviews, they'd mostly find various forms of hate, for the device, its chipset, OS, the company...

I think TCL simply tried to go the low-risk route with devices which would be as close as possible to old BB form-factor to cater to the BB "fanbase" and maybe build from there. Obviously that wasn't the smartest route.

Actually, the next planned hardware from BlackBerry Limited was the Key design which it passed along to BlackBerry Mobile as part of the licensing deal. I’m pretty confident BlackBerry had all the confidential sales data necessary and shares that with licensees.

[bh7171]

Actually, the next planned hardware from BlackBerry Limited was the Key design which it passed along to BlackBerry Mobile as part of the licensing deal. I’m pretty confident BlackBerry had all the confidential sales data necessary and shares that with licensees.

Perhaps users will get both Key/Classic like and PRIV designed devices? The press promo/release notes new 2021 "5G BlackBerry Smartphones" (plural) not Smartphone. Then all new potential users would be happy. That would really then trigger the skeptics 🤯😁.

[jrmcafee]

I stand by my gut that an enterprise device could surface initially that skews toward a Classic (more likely KEY) design and then a slab consumer model to satisfy these PRIV nuts.

Posted via CB10

[Mirko935]

There were about 5-7 million BB10 users at its peak. If they couldn't win over more than 1 million of them, how would they have expected to convince the masses of happy non-BB users?

Because 5,9 of those ~6 million started doing things like watching YouTube, Netflix, Instagram feeds, gaming and all other things any 100$ low-end Android can nicely do and the latest and greatest from BlackBerry as the odd one out can't, despite its high-endish price. Like it or not, in today's world the Key1/2 design is a one-trick pony.

As GSMArena states in their review of the KEY2:
"The KEY2 is a step in the right direction for the KEY line's hardware and form factor, but there is still plenty of room for improvement. Otherwise, we'd love to see another BlackBerry with a physical keyboard using a more conventional 16:9 display and on-screen navigation keys. Or perhaps a true successor to the BlackBerry Priv: one with a slide-up display.
As for the demographic of who would buy this device, it is still very much a niche smartphone. We can't imagine that an iPhone 8 or Galaxy S9 owner would be rushing to go get a BlackBerry. The KEY2 is for whoever really misses the physical feel of a keyboard or for those who are still holding onto a legacy BlackBerry for the same reason just mentioned.
BlackBerry's reception has been generally good since it revealed the KEYOne. This is a brand that is certainly on the right path to a successful revival, though, it will be a very long road ahead. BlackBerry needs to figure out how to cater to its legacy users while also appealing to the younger, digital generation of smartphone users. If it doesn't, it will likely remain what it is today in 2018: a niche brand."

no slider...too many moving parts. key style with full width kb (like k2le) but capacitive. no bezel-full screen, virtual buttons smaller bottom chin. top tier oled

Siemens made the first slider phone, the SL10, in 1999.


In 2004 (three years before the first iPhone) there was the HTC Blue Angel, with a 3.5" QVGA touchscreen and a full slide-out QWERTY keyboard, WiFi, Windows Mobile...


When searching for phones with a sliding form factor made before 2015 using the GSMArena Phone finder, it returns 604 results. 7013 without the form factor filter. Meaning almost 10% of phones throughout the years had some kind of a sliding design.

Why should "the moving parts" then pose problems in 2021? I really don't get it. Every phone manufacturer out there has done it multiple times, on phones ranging from literally 50$ to 1200$; including BlackBerry. There's even no need to waste any money on the mechanical part, they can simply recycle the Priv's sliding mechanism design. It can obviously work flawlessly for half a decade.

Actually, the next planned hardware from BlackBerry Limited was the Key design which it passed along to BlackBerry Mobile as part of the licensing deal. I’m pretty confident BlackBerry had all the confidential sales data necessary and shares that with licensees.

You don't replace an SD8xx, top-of-the-line 1440p curved OLED, wireless charging etc. phone with an SD6xx device with a 3:2 LCD. Priv was the high-end product, Key line was the get-the-job-done higher mid-tier device to be used as a secondary, company-issued phone. Had there been less hate surrounding BB leading to its exit from the manufacturing business, we would now have a Priv4, Key4 and a slab or two for the folks that don't care about the PKB.