08-04-11 09:11 AM
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  1. lnichols's Avatar
    Applications are installed onto the available app space, period. They can save a small backup file to the sdcard, they can save an install file to the devices's media memory, but they can not install into that entire block of media space. 8 gigs of media storage on the device is an absolute waste! The device has an sd card slot.

    I don't know if this is a final feature, but it has been on every BB device since the start. But the rewrite of this type of code had to happen at a lower level than the OS, so it is a reasonable guess that this will not change on BB devices. As another poster noted it is likely part of the architecture of the underlying legacy code. Which tells me that despite the hardware advances, RIM is still unable to fully utilize modern hardware with its outdated Java code. After so much time, I had hoped they paid as much attention to fixing the underlying code as they did to the hardware and new features.
    It is an ancient OS and the memory is probably limited by the OS. If they could modify it to do newer things great with BBOS they probably wouldn't have bought QNX. QNX will allow full use of everything and maintain security.
    07-14-11 02:36 PM
  2. 1magine's Avatar
    It is an ancient OS and the memory is probably limited by the OS. If they could modify it to do newer things great with BBOS they probably wouldn't have bought QNX. QNX will allow full use of everything and maintain security.
    This was my point. OS7 is adding allot but not fixing allot.

    Add: Magnometer, Open GL ES2.; NFC; RAM/CPU; voice searching

    Missing still needs to be addressed: fully allocated memory; full screen caller ID; integrated turn by turn w/i BB Maps; playing ring tones and alerts through headset

    Could really use in next gen hardware: Flash 10.1; FFC; 4G antennae.

    Good news is we're getting closer with every day that passes. Its already mid July, so the 2011 devices will be out soon. 2012 is only 5+ months away.
    07-14-11 03:16 PM
  3. axe50's Avatar
    Amazing. There was the exact same thread years ago regarding the launch of the 9700 with OS5 and the whole Application memory thing. (have to find the link)

    I'll say the same thing I did back then...anyone who says the memory we are left with after booting "is more than enough" for apps that are yet to be released, is in serious denial.

    Let's take a look back then shall we? Apps on the Blackberry were a small number, ranging in the 100k range, with some of the larger more intuitive ones were 300k. An app over 1mb was unheard of. Look at applications now, and you have multiple apps that are in the 2-4mb range.

    I had suggested back then that the 9700 should have had ideally 1-2gb available application storage and at a very least, 512mb.

    Since then, apps have changed and so have the devices running them. To be blunt it would be shame if this device which is being advertised as having 8gb of memory had roughly 500mb or less available for applications. The 8gb is really useless memory if all it is used for is media- that's what my PlayBook is for.

    If this turns out to be true, that will impact my decision to get this device- I'll stick with the 9700 until QNX comes.
    07-14-11 03:49 PM
  4. 1magine's Avatar
    500? - No no. Look at the screen shot on page 1. The Torch 2 after loading the OS has just over 200 megs of free application space. Once again, if it were not for BES, I too would pass. Actually - each day that goes by makes me wonder if I really want an OS7 device. I guess the faster browser might be nice.
    07-14-11 03:53 PM
  5. 1magine's Avatar
    BBM is 4.3 megs, and that is RIM's own programming team. Docs to go is 4 megs. Angry Farm is about 20 megs, Garmin Mobile is about 15 megs, Need for Speed almost 23 megs and Tanks is 32.5 megs. This is a really short list, without themes, social media and the apps to take advantage of the NFC or magnometer. 200 Megs is going to be an issue for allot of folks. And just to remind people, you usually start to get seriously bogged down when your available device memory drops under a certain percentage of the total available. In my experience devices slow down at about 1/3 left and start to crawl under 20%.
    07-14-11 04:24 PM
  6. shlammed's Avatar
    This was my point. OS7 is adding allot but not fixing allot.

    Add: Magnometer, Open GL ES2.; NFC; RAM/CPU; voice searching

    Missing still needs to be addressed: fully allocated memory; full screen caller ID; integrated turn by turn w/i BB Maps; playing ring tones and alerts through headset

    Could really use in next gen hardware: Flash 10.1; FFC; 4G antennae.

    Good news is we're getting closer with every day that passes. Its already mid July, so the 2011 devices will be out soon. 2012 is only 5+ months away.
    What do you mean when you say playing ringtones in headset?

    I use my torch as an mp3 player at the gym and I always here my bbm and phone etc while the music plays.
    07-14-11 06:13 PM
  7. Rooster99's Avatar
    We will be evaluating our mobile device strategy in the next 6 months. Based on what I've read of iOS5 and this latest news on OS7, I'd bet the only thing that will keep our company on Blackberry may be BES.

    I don't want to go Apple, but I was one of those S1 and S2 owners who faced the consequences of the memory limitation combined with RIM's refusal to acknowledge it as a limitation and address the issue.

    Tech issues put RIM devices lower than the competition. Jim's "60 days" lie and the Dynamic Duo's arrogance in refusing to acknowledge issues puts their arrogance on a level with Jobs - and actually below a bit since he at least delivers some pretty serious and leading stuff. The user experience and wealth of apps put the competition higher than RIM devices.

    As a small business owner, where's my motivation to stay? I don't need POTUS-level security so if that's all they've got left ...

    - R.
    07-14-11 06:20 PM
  8. Rooster99's Avatar
    BBM is 4.3 megs, and that is RIM's own programming team. Docs to go is 4 megs. Angry Farm is about 20 megs, Garmin Mobile is about 15 megs, Need for Speed almost 23 megs and Tanks is 32.5 megs. This is a really short list, without themes, social media and the apps to take advantage of the NFC or magnometer. 200 Megs is going to be an issue for allot of folks. And just to remind people, you usually start to get seriously bogged down when your available device memory drops under a certain percentage of the total available. In my experience devices slow down at about 1/3 left and start to crawl under 20%.
    I feel like I'm looking at my Storm all over again. Exactly the same issue/discussion.

    - R.
    07-14-11 06:21 PM
  9. 1magine's Avatar
    What do you mean when you say playing ringtones in headset?

    I use my torch as an mp3 player at the gym and I always here my bbm and phone etc while the music plays.
    You may hear them, but not through the headsets. Ringtones and alerts do not output through the 3.5mm jack. Music and video will. Music will stop through the headset and play an alert through the phone's speaker, ditto a ringtone - even an mp3 as a ring tone. They play through the device speaker even with a headset plugged in.
    07-14-11 06:26 PM
  10. diegonei's Avatar
    I know I should not bring this one up since most people will never actually do it and we were neither supposed nor expected to, but there is shrinking... I bet that device was running a full install.

    Not saying it is a solution, far from that, but on a 9780 I can easily get rid of 155mb of unused/unwanted stuff and have 350mb of free memory (prior to loading any appds/backups), which out of 512mb is a very good mark.

    We could expect the same from OS7 right? The way I see it, RIM would only be in real trouble when QNX-native devices hit and still go under the application memory/media storage rule...

    The thought of QNX devices being a 2012-Q1 milestone makes me full of hope.
    Last edited by diegonei; 07-14-11 at 06:32 PM.
    07-14-11 06:29 PM
  11. grover5's Avatar
    BBM is 4.3 megs, and that is RIM's own programming team. Docs to go is 4 megs. Angry Farm is about 20 megs, Garmin Mobile is about 15 megs, Need for Speed almost 23 megs and Tanks is 32.5 megs. This is a really short list, without themes, social media and the apps to take advantage of the NFC or magnometer. 200 Megs is going to be an issue for allot of folks. And just to remind people, you usually start to get seriously bogged down when your available device memory drops under a certain percentage of the total available. In my experience devices slow down at about 1/3 left and start to crawl under 20%.
    I'm assuming there has to be a reason why but like you I don't know what it is. I still prefer the 9900 with OS 7 to the other devices out right now but I can easily understand if someone else doesn't. I think Angry Farm is actually 2.4 mbs though.
    07-14-11 06:30 PM
  12. howarmat's Avatar
    You may hear them, but not through the headsets. Ringtones and alerts do not output through the 3.5mm jack. Music and video will. Music will stop through the headset and play an alert through the phone's speaker, ditto a ringtone - even an mp3 as a ring tone. They play through the device speaker even with a headset plugged in.
    This is a limitation but i think its CDMA devices only because of the chipset
    07-14-11 06:37 PM
  13. diegonei's Avatar
    I'm assuming there has to be a reason why but like you I don't know what it is. I still prefer the 9900 with OS 7 to the other devices out right now but I can easily understand if someone else doesn't. I think Angry Farm is actually 2.4 mbs though.
    I'm positive he ment Angry Birds.
    07-14-11 06:48 PM
  14. Bob G's Avatar
    For me too, this is a serious flaw in the 9900. I've had memory shortages with all of my BlackBerrys (8310, 9700, 9800). It's fine at first, but then between the memory leaks and the OS updates and the new apps that require more memory, the problems begin.

    I really *want* to ditch my Atrix and get back to the stability and advanced business functionality of a BlackBerry, but this built-in memory shortage is making me hesitate.

    With the old Palm OS, some apps had the option to install a "launcher" in memory and the rest of the app on the SD card. Then when you launched the app, it would pull the rest of the code from the SD card into memory (effectively installing at run time) and then run. The price for this was a longer start up time for those apps, but most of the big apps were games (and by definition, you have time to kill).

    Why can't developers do the same for BB apps?
    07-14-11 07:24 PM
  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    You may hear them, but not through the headsets. Ringtones and alerts do not output through the 3.5mm jack. Music and video will. Music will stop through the headset and play an alert through the phone's speaker, ditto a ringtone - even an mp3 as a ring tone. They play through the device speaker even with a headset plugged in.
    They definitely play trough the headset and when I'm streaming trough bluetooth to my car radio on my OS6 9700 and it doesn't pause the music.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-14-11 07:28 PM
  16. Bob G's Avatar
    I'm positive he ment Angry Birds.
    I don't think "Angry Birds" exists for the BlackBerry, but I remember seeing a similar "Angry Farm" app introduced in the CrackBerry blogs.
    07-14-11 07:28 PM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I have one question, what happens if you have apps stored on the memory card and if you remove it and insert it into another android phone? Do the apps run?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-14-11 07:30 PM
  18. czibert's Avatar

    Good news is we're getting closer with every day that passes. Its already mid July, so the 2011 devices will be out soon. 2012 is only 5+ months away.
    Good news, yeah, but that timeframe is an eternity in the smartphone world.


    I am sick to death of my ancient 9530--but my preferred handset maker has not produced any better product that I'd be interesting in upgrading to in eons so I just keep the thing (Storm 2 wast not worth the upgrade, sorry). I am getting tired of people asking me "you still have that old thing?" and having my answer be "yeah, there haven't been any new touchscreen non-ATT BlackBerry's in a while..."

    My company no longer requires I carry a BB--we have now welcomed Android and iPhone to the ranks. And I've watched the majority of my 130,000 worldwide co-workers get rid of their BB's either instantly when the change was announced or when their contracts ran the course.

    BBM is totally useless anymore--only two friends and my Mom still have a BB!

    And now this application memory dissapointment for OS7?? Terrible news. I mean, I guess I shouldn't be surprised--if they could have fixed it don't we all think they would have done so with Storm, Bold, Torch, etc etc? Some Java-OS based limitation is the culprit, in my uninformed speculation.

    Anyway--I am going to wait to see these OS 7 devices. But I honestly don't know what I'm going to do this fall after they ship.

    I have been so loyal to RIM and have spent the last two years singing their praises but I am honestly sick and tired of defending the indefensible from this company.

    They need a "WOW!" and they need it before 5 mos from now when the only BB users left in North America will be in Ontario and its environs (concentrated eerily near the hamlet of Waterloo).
    07-14-11 07:33 PM
  19. howarmat's Avatar
    I have one question, what happens if you have apps stored on the memory card and if you remove it and insert it into another android phone? Do the apps run?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    no they will not
    07-14-11 07:37 PM
  20. mu1e.u13's Avatar
    This was my point. OS7 is adding allot but not fixing allot.

    Add: Magnometer, Open GL ES2.; NFC; RAM/CPU; voice searching

    Missing still needs to be addressed: fully allocated memory; full screen caller ID; integrated turn by turn w/i BB Maps; playing ring tones and alerts through headset

    Could really use in next gen hardware: Flash 10.1; FFC; 4G antennae.

    Good news is we're getting closer with every day that passes. Its already mid July, so the 2011 devices will be out soon. 2012 is only 5+ months away.
    You have to remember, the cost of fixing a bug at requirements level is < at design < at implementation < at testing < after it's out the door.

    At some point, this segragation was useful. But now it's not.

    To fix these rtequirement changes, you first need to figure out what the impact is, make tests for it, make changes, test, rinse and repeat.

    Given the code is actually ancient, you need a brave developer to even look at it, let's not say make changes.

    I've seen x86 code embedded in a mix of C and C++ for the codebase. Our bravest dev didn't want to touch it for fear of breaking it.

    This smells like one of those issues.
    BBOttawa likes this.
    07-14-11 08:00 PM
  21. mu1e.u13's Avatar
    What do you mean when you say playing ringtones in headset?

    I use my torch as an mp3 player at the gym and I always here my bbm and phone etc while the music plays.
    sometimes hardware limits what the device can do.

    My HTC Vision doesn't mix 2 audio stream into one - eg play music and you get a email , it would pause the music, then play the email tone, then music cotinues.

    1magine's 9550 probably has a similar issue
    07-14-11 08:08 PM
  22. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    sometimes hardware limits what the device can do.

    My HTC Vision doesn't mix 2 audio stream into one - eg play music and you get a email , it would pause the music, then play the email tone, then music cotinues.

    1magine's 9550 probably has a similar issue
    Right. My 9550 has the same issue. The current CDMA BBs are on old Qualcomms that don't support dual audio channels. Current Marvell based BBs like the Torch 9800 do support this. All of the new BB7 phones based on either the Qualcomm Snapdragon or Marvell should handle this just fine. Shows how much us CDMA guys need an upgrade....

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-14-11 08:16 PM
  23. briswolf's Avatar
    I have no hard facts - this is just my computer science degree and experience talking so just my 2 cents.

    The reason that the memory is "partitioned" doesn't really have anything to do with how much Flash memory is in the BlackBerry, but actually with how much RAM there is.

    Every single piece of installed java code on the BlackBerry is resident in ram at the same time - this is because the BlackBerry's java OS doesn't have a dynamic loader and all the apps get loaded from flash to RAM at start up (including the OS). (Yes I know that when you install an app you don't have to restart - I am not sure how they do that without some kind of dynamic loader - but definitely everything else is only done at bootup which is why you must reboot your blackberry in order to upgrade or delete some applications - especially shared libraries).

    I suppose in theory they could write some kind of dynamic loader to load apps into RAM on demand and then scrub them from RAM when they exit, but it is probably a very conceptually difficult change and would require an almost complete rewrite of the core blackberry java operating system (right down to the nuts and bolts). RIM probably looked at it the problem and decided it would be easier just to get by until they change platforms completely to QNX - completely changing the fundamental nature of an operating system such as a rewrite of the memory management, changing to dynamic loading, is not an easy task - especially if you don't want to break things and cause potential security issues etc.
    grover5 likes this.
    07-14-11 08:16 PM
  24. diegonei's Avatar
    I don't think "Angry Birds" exists for the BlackBerry, but I remember seeing a similar "Angry Farm" app introduced in the CrackBerry blogs.
    You're right, there is no Angry Birds for BlackBerry. But he mentioned a 20+mb app. He was talking about other apps and all of them were bigger than the BB versions. Couldn't be Angry Farm now, could it?
    Last edited by diegonei; 07-14-11 at 09:48 PM.
    07-14-11 09:45 PM
  25. cwong15's Avatar
    Every single piece of installed java code on the BlackBerry is resident in ram at the same time - this is because the BlackBerry's java OS doesn't have a dynamic loader and all the apps get loaded from flash to RAM at start up (including the OS). (Yes I know that when you install an app you don't have to restart - I am not sure how they do that without some kind of dynamic loader - but definitely everything else is only done at bootup which is why you must reboot your blackberry in order to upgrade or delete some applications - especially shared libraries).
    I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. Java runtimes are generally dynamic: there is a class loader that loads classes as needed, and only when needed. I have seen apps that cause class loader exceptions when run: this implies that their classes are only loaded when the app is executed. The reason why you sometimes need to reboot has to do with persistent data. Apps that don't use persistent storage do not need a reboot when you delete them.
    07-14-11 10:06 PM
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