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  1. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    [QUOTE=Troy Tiscareno;9618114And that may be true, but WITH BB devices, there is no BBRY either, because they are losing money on every phone they make.[/QUOTE]

    You do understand the losses where on write downs on inventory and a paper loss at that. With the correct volumes of production, they make money and a good margin on each phone.
    11-27-13 07:55 AM
  2. lnichols's Avatar
    Here is the thing, BB10 can be installed on any ARMV7 devices, and still maintain all of its security certifications. I personally think that BlackBerry should be outsourcing production of devices to companies that can do it better and cheaper now than BlackBerry can. Samsung made by components for iPhone before, and I'm sure would do it for others. Maybe HTC would be willing to make phones for BlackBerry since they can't sell their own running android. Point is there are plenty of companies that make hardware that will work just fine with BB10, there will be organizations that want BB10, so I don't see a day in the near future where there won't be a phone available that runs BB10.

    Posted via CB10
    howarmat likes this.
    11-27-13 08:09 AM
  3. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    It may be obvious to those that don't understand how all the pieces work together to make an enterprise product, for those of us who do, we know that they will have to continue to make devices. Even the new CEO said that.
    BBRY is pretty much in a catch 22. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. It is true that many of their MDM and enterprise solutions are reliant on having their own lines of handsets but its also true that its current product portfolio is a massive flop, which is why corporate interest in purchasing BBRY is low. Most of BBRY's software and services are poised to fail; but, merely a laggier indicator of BBRY's condition than device sales.

    The value of BBRY's non-cash assets minus the patent portfolio could be worth 0 and even the patent portfolio may not be 'billion dollar' attractive. A large number of investors still think Blackberry is grossly overvalued, hence the short interest. BBRY's market capitalization as of this moment continues to be overwhelmingly based on the speculative value of its parts and not its longterm viability as a company.

    Point is there are plenty of companies that make hardware that will work just fine with BB10, there will be organizations that want BB10, so I don't see a day in the near future where there won't be a phone available that runs BB10.
    The logic is flawed. The amount of demand from organizations obviously matter when determining the future of BB10. Surely there is still some demand for WebOS and BetaMax, but that doesn't mean the products should still be in production.

    Furthermore, few organizations actually want BB10. They want BB OS7. BB10 is a spiritual, but not technological, successor to BB OS7. The organizations holding out are doing so out of inertia and need a BES server to continue supporting their aging BB OS7 infrastructure..

    BB10 is actually a horrible business product and was 100% consumer oriented, regardless of whether Crackberry wants to admit it or not. Business clients hate drastic upgrades. (If they loved upheaval, iOS or Android would have taken over a long time ago.) What they want is a slow but consistent trickling transition from their current infrastructure. For this reason, the actual organizational demand for BB10 is low/nonexistent.

    But what you said (while untrue for BB10) is true for BB OS7. BB OS7 could survive for a very long time. BBRY could sell BB OS7 handsets for >1000 USD and there will still be a small, niche consumer base willing to pay this price. BBRY won't make a lot of money (in total) off of these handsets; but, it's still guaranteed dollars in their pockets.

    So, while Blackberry is still alive, BBRY isn't likely to completely shaft its device division if only to keep manufacturing these small batch of BB OS7 devices. What Chen said is likely true in that regard.
    Last edited by sentimentGX4; 11-27-13 at 08:43 AM.
    JeepBB likes this.
    11-27-13 08:14 AM
  4. lawguyman's Avatar
    Chen simply got rid of two failures. Boulben accomplished nothing but some bad ads and was not liked. Tear is probably taking the heat for the $1 billion Z10 write down (why order so many handsets?).

    The fact that these guys were not replaced right now is meaningless. Chen explicitly stated that he will be working closely with those departments. That means that right now he wants to be the decision maker. I like that.

    The most important thing is that in the recent press release, he layed out the future of the company. Here are the business that he is focusing on (1) devices - mentioned first by the way (2) device management (BES 10) (3) BBM and (4) QNX embedded systems.

    I feel pretty confident based on this that BlackBerry under Chen still sees itself as a devices company. I hope this means that they give the next BlackBerry launched with 10.2.1 or maybe 10.2 a REAL launch supported with a real ad campaign.

    If not for the z10 write down, BBs business is really close to breakeven. The new cash is going to be used for something, right? Why borrow money and incur the carrying costs if you're not going to spend it.

    I think that BlackBerry is giving devices another go.

    Posted via CB10
    R Field likes this.
    11-27-13 08:30 AM
  5. MobileZen's Avatar
    End-to-end enterprise mobile solutioning (less dependencies and headaches of too many 3rd party vendor(s) hands in the pot) with just-in-time inventory strategy.

    BlackBerry handsets still has best of class communications for their antennas, durability, battery options, and adopting hardware and software standards. Baked in best of class security cryptography for hardware and software from their Certicom subsidiary.

    On software side, they are employing a MDM strategy with BES10 where they can manage other platforms but get most value add if they use BlackBerry handsets and BlackBerry Balance. NOC already mentioned earlier.

    So still a good case for hardware production but do it just-in-time for corporate clients.

    Posted via CB10
    11-27-13 08:32 AM
  6. ikalinin's Avatar
    Except that a Porsche and a GM car don't cost the same.
    to some extent... you have to take apples to apples. obviously we wont take a Cehvy spark and compare it to the 911. if you suit up GMs, like the new corvette, the denali's.. you get up there...
    11-27-13 08:36 AM
  7. jay_men's Avatar
    Just curious, anyone know who was the RIM CMO prior to 2009? And are we assuming there is no management beneath the CMO and COO roles to take over their responsibilites?

    By the OPs logic, what's the point of living? Here's my evidence FACTS -> low market share, highly competitive world, jobs get outsourced, debt gets accumulated, people die, taxes still have to be paid ...
    11-27-13 08:44 AM
  8. Tyler Nellissen's Avatar
    Is this post an opinion or evidence? I'm confused.
    11-27-13 08:53 AM
  9. anon(4044683)'s Avatar
    BlackBerry should not give up.
    11-27-13 08:56 AM
  10. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Here is the thing, BB10 can be installed on any ARMV7 devices, and still maintain all of its security certifications. I personally think that BlackBerry should be outsourcing production of devices to companies that can do it better and cheaper now than BlackBerry can. Samsung made by components for iPhone before, and I'm sure would do it for others. Maybe HTC would be willing to make phones for BlackBerry since they can't sell their own running android. Point is there are plenty of companies that make hardware that will work just fine with BB10, there will be organizations that want BB10, so I don't see a day in the near future where there won't be a phone available that runs BB10.

    Posted via CB10
    Unless BB10 is tied to the boot rom, you cannot secure the OS/device integration. They are already outsourcing most of the device production, I think only some final assembly is done at Blackberry. So there won't be much cost savings. If you take out over production of the devices, the ones that they sold had very good margins.
    11-27-13 08:59 AM
  11. Overlake's Avatar
    I agree. You release a z9999 or q100 anytime soon and it is just going to rot with the rest of the older, aging stock as long as BlackBerry 10 remains a micro_niche player in the all-important apps world. Hardware, we all know as owners, is NOT the problem. The beautiful software is not either.

    It is all about apps, apps, apps.

    Without a competitively sized app hungry customer base, current and future app makers will not develop on bb10 because they can better spend that money making sure the 90 percents get the best experience possible (ios/droid). It is very expensive to keep the lights on - in the well skilled and hard to find brains fueling the talent.

    Bb's last gasp is BBM's cross-platform release and yet nothing about it is innovative or nearly special enough to differentiate itself from stalwarts already entrenched in the messaging space.

    The only reason why I love my q10 is the phys keyboard. If not this, I'd be all over ios.

    Posted via CB10
    bbq10l likes this.
    11-27-13 09:09 AM
  12. birdman_38's Avatar
    I predict BlackBerry will forge ahead with hardware in the form of a BlackBerry Android phone. It'll feature Android 4.4, full out Google Play and Google apps. We're almost there already. It's something Mr. Chen hasn't ruled out.

    Question is, will we see only a touch BlackBerry Android in 2014 or a qwerty model alongside it?
    JeepBB likes this.
    11-27-13 09:19 AM
  13. Jerry A's Avatar
    It may be obvious to those that don't understand how all the pieces work together to make an enterprise product, for those of us who do, we know that they will have to continue to make devices. Even the new CEO said that.
    You're absolutely correct. But I think you're forgetting one important fact. A BB10 handset is no better or worse than its competition in terms of architecture or security or email access.

    So that leaves the Work sandbox as a differentiator. Which is good if you have the MDM market cornered. Which BlackBerry doesn't (it was late to that game too).

    So, for BES10, BlackBerry makes the sandbox container support available for Android and iOS. Same as their competition.

    That means they can offer an end-to-end solution to enterprizes for competing platforms. No BB10 device required for the security of which we speak.

    Add to that BBM4ALL and you now have a cross-platform communication tool that just works without a competitor's backend (potentially eroding Lync, Facetime and Yammer). Hey, they're first to something now and have a real shot at making great inroads.

    Solid plans. All of which don't require BB10 handsets - just BlackBerry software and services.

    Is this the path forward? Who knows? But let's not kid ourselves and think they can't survive without handsets.

    I think the OP is onto something. The lack of clear details on the handset front is troubling. No new device pipeline does make me feel like BB10 is the new PlayBook - it's obituary is obvious to everyone but won't be announced until 2-yr old stock is no longer in the warehouse.

    Time will tell and I think we all hope we're wrong on this one.
    JeepBB, bbq10l and Troy Tiscareno like this.
    11-27-13 09:22 AM
  14. Jerry A's Avatar
    I predict BlackBerry will forge ahead with hardware in the form of a BlackBerry Android phone. It'll feature Android 4.4, full out Google Play and Google apps. We're almost there already. It's something Mr. Chen hasn't ruled out.

    Question is, will we see only a touch BlackBerry Android in 2014 or a qwerty model alongside it?
    That's a low-margin market with some tough competition. Why would they go this route?

    By doing so, they give up their 30% of anything sold via BlackBerry World and just make more money for Google.

    Even if they make an Android-based phone they need folks going to BlackBerry World and developers submitting their apps there if they want a piece of the pie.
    11-27-13 09:25 AM
  15. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Will BlackBerry make hardware, won't BlackBerry make hardware....

    Troy thanks for your views and opinion, I can see it going that way pretty easily. Let's face it BlackBerry can't compete on prices and without a full blown and supported platform they are just a commodity item for consumer. Now that they seem to be turning to Android it makes them a direct competitor to HTC, Motorola and Samsung, BlackBerry can NOT compete with these guys (PRICING, marketing, hardware, and R&D)... BB10 is basically just a different UI in consumers view (no it isn't, but what does a consumer care).

    Now in enterprise, BB10 does offer a different level of security and management along with BES10 that make it more of a premium product that is insulated from the Android Hardware Wars and might allow BlackBerry to be a hardware manufacture.... the question is how big is this market really. Will it support tens of millions devices a year... or will they be lucky to sell a million? Might be cheaper to have a few custom devices made by an existing manufacturer and either install BB10 on them... or custom Android OS.


    Personally I think BB10.2.1.1055 is GREAT. I can see so much potential! But that is the problem, we aren't there yet and here it is nine months after the launch and BlackBerry is still playing catch-up to two very mature, yet still developing operating systems.
    11-27-13 09:30 AM
  16. birdman_38's Avatar
    That's a low-margin market with some tough competition. Why would they go this route?
    How would it be any different than what they're doing right now?
    By doing so, they give up their 30% of anything sold via BlackBerry World and just make more money for Google.

    Even if they make an Android-based phone they need folks going to BlackBerry World and developers submitting their apps there if they want a piece of the pie.
    While we don't have the exact numbers, perhaps they would offset that loss of revenue with new BES 10 sales.

    BES 10 combined with a BlackBerry Android handset featuring industry leading security would be an attractive proposition for enterprise.
    11-27-13 09:41 AM
  17. Jerry A's Avatar
    BES 10 combined with a BlackBerry Android handset featuring industry leading security would be an attractive proposition for enterprise.
    Why is that any more attractive than going with iOS or any other Android device that meets the minimum device requirements and hooking those into BES10?
    11-27-13 10:15 AM
  18. birdman_38's Avatar
    Why is that any more attractive than going with iOS or any other Android device that meets the minimum device requirements and hooking those into BES10?
    Because BlackBerry is renowned for their security. Should they continue with hardware they need to get back on top in that regard.
    11-27-13 10:16 AM
  19. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    Here is the thing, BB10 can be installed on any ARMV7 devices, and still maintain all of its security certifications. I personally think that BlackBerry should be outsourcing production of devices to companies that can do it better and cheaper now than BlackBerry can. Samsung made by components for iPhone before, and I'm sure would do it for others. Maybe HTC would be willing to make phones for BlackBerry since they can't sell their own running android. Point is there are plenty of companies that make hardware that will work just fine with BB10, there will be organizations that want BB10, so I don't see a day in the near future where there won't be a phone available that runs BB10.

    Posted via CB10
    I'd love a HTC One with a physical kb running BB10. That's a phone I'd buy in a heartbeat.

    Geeks United C00122408
    Last edited by CJH_; 11-27-13 at 11:37 AM.
    bbq10l likes this.
    11-27-13 10:20 AM
  20. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    You do understand the losses where on write downs on inventory and a paper loss at that. With the correct volumes of production, they make money and a good margin on each phone.
    You do understand that the loss will be realised the moment BlackBerry can't sell their devices OR when BlackBerry sold the Z10's but for a price under the production costs?

    BlackBerry paid for these Z10's, you know...
    So they may have "only paper losses", but since they paid for their Z10 supply before they sold them, the loss is already existant nonetheless.
    The only thing they can do, is make the loss smaller, and even this is doubtfull.

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB likes this.
    11-27-13 10:30 AM
  21. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    That's a low-margin market with some tough competition. Why would they go this route?

    By doing so, they give up their 30% of anything sold via BlackBerry World and just make more money for Google.

    Even if they make an Android-based phone they need folks going to BlackBerry World and developers submitting their apps there if they want a piece of the pie.
    I am not saying that BlackBerry will certainly go down that road, but right now, pretty much everything would make them more money than their current line-up.

    Posted via CB10
    11-27-13 10:32 AM
  22. Jerry A's Avatar
    Because BlackBerry is renowned for their security. Should they continue with hardware they need to get back on top in that regard.
    How? By creating hooks into the kernel which is GPL'd? Then they have to release said code for everyone to use.

    So they go the userland route (eg apps). They can keep that code to themselves. Just like Samsung does with Knox.

    Hey, just like BlackBerry does now for the BES10 container and BBM. They don't need hardware to offer a secure BlackBerry/BES10 experience.
    11-27-13 10:41 AM
  23. Tim Heard's Avatar
    I guess the clearest evidence that they intend to continue manufacturing devices for now is the fact that they didn't split the company. It could be argued that the handset business, while not making money right now, is the glue that holds everything else together.

    BlackBerry could also easily have entered into an agreement with Lenovo that would not have sold the hardware division, but would have given Lenovo the right to produce BlackBerry devices, running BB10. ... That would have been a logical step if they intended to shut down hardware production, and still could be a logical step even if they don't intend to. ... Lenovo clearly was interested in the handset business, but no agreemetn was reached.
    11-27-13 11:02 AM
  24. freedomx20a's Avatar
    ROFL! EVIDENCE I found UFO's in my opinion.
    11-27-13 11:17 AM
  25. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    BBRY is pretty much in a catch 22. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. It is true that many of their MDM and enterprise solutions are reliant on having their own lines of handsets but its also true that its current product portfolio is a massive flop, which is why corporate interest in purchasing BBRY is low. Most of BBRY's software and services are poised to fail; but, merely a laggier indicator of BBRY's condition than device sales.

    The value of BBRY's non-cash assets minus the patent portfolio could be worth 0 and even the patent portfolio may not be 'billion dollar' attractive. A large number of investors still think Blackberry is grossly overvalued, hence the short interest. BBRY's market capitalization as of this moment continues to be overwhelmingly based on the speculative value of its parts and not its longterm viability as a company.

    The logic is flawed. The amount of demand from organizations obviously matter when determining the future of BB10. Surely there is still some demand for WebOS and BetaMax, but that doesn't mean the products should still be in production.

    Furthermore, few organizations actually want BB10. They want BB OS7. BB10 is a spiritual, but not technological, successor to BB OS7. The organizations holding out are doing so out of inertia and need a BES server to continue supporting their aging BB OS7 infrastructure..

    BB10 is actually a horrible business product and was 100% consumer oriented, regardless of whether Crackberry wants to admit it or not. Business clients hate drastic upgrades. (If they loved upheaval, iOS or Android would have taken over a long time ago.) What they want is a slow but consistent trickling transition from their current infrastructure. For this reason, the actual organizational demand for BB10 is low/nonexistent.

    But what you said (while untrue for BB10) is true for BB OS7. BB OS7 could survive for a very long time. BBRY could sell BB OS7 handsets for >1000 USD and there will still be a small, niche consumer base willing to pay this price. BBRY won't make a lot of money (in total) off of these handsets; but, it's still guaranteed dollars in their pockets.

    So, while Blackberry is still alive, BBRY isn't likely to completely shaft its device division if only to keep manufacturing these small batch of BB OS7 devices. What Chen said is likely true in that regard.
    Points I bolded within your quote:

    1 - Agreed. The key is to correctly forecast market demand and make enough devices. In this scenario HW can be a small but profitable division for them. They can then slowly build back up. The Z10 write down was just poor forecasting on their part. Had they not made so many devices they would not have the write down to begin with. It seems they did not learn from the playbook fiasco.

    2 - The big mistake was not making BES 10 backwards compatible with BBOS. This would have made the transition to BB10 easier. Now organizations are forced to go all in on BB10 and BES 10 and cannot slowly migrate without running old and new BES in parallel.

    3 - In what way do you see it as a horrible business product? If BB10 is horrible then so is iOS and Android. and we know that they actually already have taken over via BYOD. Companies got smart. Instead offer to buy iPhones for their work force they have duped them into using their own. Genius. And organizational demand for BB10 is low due the need for a BES 10 installation as well as uncertainty over the future of the company.
    11-27-13 11:34 AM
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