1. Sulaco757's Avatar
    Please PLEASE show me proof of all these "forced obsolete" iphones out there. There are more people still using 2 or 3 year old iphones than there are people who bought all BB10 phones combined, as in ever. Apple updates IOS multiple times a year and owners don't have to wait for stupid carriers to certify the updates.
    Whited00r.com. IPhone, iPhone 3g, iPhone 3gs, 4, 4s. Soon to be 5. Many of these devices have perfectly functional hardware if only they had optimized operating systems. Like they did the year they launched. Yet they get updated with software the hardware can't support. Why?



    Here is an example of an iPhone 4s going from iOS 7 to 8.

    http://www.iphonehacks.com/2014/09/i...ing-ios-8.html

    When you have end to end control over your OS you can choose to optimize your system or de-optimize. And Apple has quite a predictable schedule. Samsung and Android is quite random.

    Someone has led you to believe that update compliance is what provides a great user experience on mobile devices. I can say with personal experience that does not apply to iPhone. It provides security perhaps, but you are equally a slave to the system.

    On the other hand Apple provides a nice upgrade path for the customer. Every September you can get your next edition. And as long as your enticed by the minor hardware enhancements, well good for you! I was just in the camp that felt frustrated having to turn in perfectly good hardware every year to maintain the same user experience. I have no problem being enticed to upgrade by legitimate improvements. But I don't like bugs thrown in to intentionally exploit me as the "installed user base."


     Q10
    02-07-16 01:40 AM
  2. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Why don't you still run Windows on your old 386 CPU with 4 MB of RAM? That's what I was running in 1991. I guess Microsoft had "planned obsolescence" when they "slowed down my PC" by releasing newer versions of Windows. Of course, let's not talk about all of the functionality, security, and capabilities that have been added to Windows over those years - that doesn't matter. What does matter is that my 386 is no longer usable!

    /sarcasm

    You're really making the same argument. Phone OSs have been gaining capabilities rapidly over the last few years, but the "cost" of that is that older hardware simply isn't up to the job anymore. It's not that the hardware got slower, it's that the newer OSs had so many more features and capabilities that they need more horsepower (CPU speed, bus speed), more RAM with more lanes, better GPUs, etc.) in order to run the new OSs as smoothly as the old hardware ran the old, less-capable OS that it launched with.

    No one forces you to upgrade your old OS version, but if you do, and that phone is 3+ years old, you need to realize that there's 3 more years of software development, adding features and functions that a lot of people want, built into that new OS, and your old hardware just might not be able to handle that well. That's not a conspiracy, it's just the way technology works.
    02-07-16 02:00 AM
  3. skstrials's Avatar
    Why don't you still run Windows on your old 386 CPU with 4 MB of RAM? That's what I was running in 1991. I guess Microsoft had "planned obsolescence" when they "slowed down my PC" by releasing newer versions of Windows. Of course, let's not talk about all of the functionality, security, and capabilities that have been added to Windows over those years - that doesn't matter. What does matter is that my 386 is no longer usable!

    /sarcasm

    You're really making the same argument. Phone OSs have been gaining capabilities rapidly over the last few years, but the "cost" of that is that older hardware simply isn't up to the job anymore. It's not that the hardware got slower, it's that the newer OSs had so many more features and capabilities that they need more horsepower (CPU speed, bus speed), more RAM with more lanes, better GPUs, etc.) in order to run the new OSs as smoothly as the old hardware ran the old, less-capable OS that it launched with.

    No one forces you to upgrade your old OS version, but if you do, and that phone is 3+ years old, you need to realize that there's 3 more years of software development, adding features and functions that a lot of people want, built into that new OS, and your old hardware just might not be able to handle that well. That's not a conspiracy, it's just the way technology works.
    I am glad you mentioned MS. MS provides security and maintenance update for Windows versions up to 10 years after the release (and longer in XP's case), regardless of if there is a more recent Windows version or not.

    Yes, Apple "forces" you to upgrade the OS in the form of discontinuing security updates if you are not on their latest OS. If Apple released maintenance and security updates to their past OS, then I would agree that it is not forced. No user should need to decide between security updates and dog slow UI.

    I am glad you mentioned the three years in a phone. The first Z10 and the Q10 were released 3 years ago this month. Both of those phones I have work smoother on the latest OS than at their release.


    Posted via CB10
    byex likes this.
    02-07-16 02:10 AM
  4. Sulaco757's Avatar
    Why don't you still run Windows on your old 386 CPU with 4 MB of RAM? That's what I was running in 1991. I guess Microsoft had "planned obsolescence" when they "slowed down my PC" by releasing newer versions of Windows. Of course, let's not talk about all of the functionality, security, and capabilities that have been added to Windows over those years - that doesn't matter. What does matter is that my 386 is no longer usable!

    /sarcasm

    You're really making the same argument. Phone OSs have been gaining capabilities rapidly over the last few years, but the "cost" of that is that older hardware simply isn't up to the job anymore. It's not that the hardware got slower, it's that the newer OSs had so many more features and capabilities that they need more horsepower (CPU speed, bus speed), more RAM with more lanes, better GPUs, etc.) in order to run the new OSs as smoothly as the old hardware ran the old, less-capable OS that it launched with.

    No one forces you to upgrade your old OS version, but if you do, and that phone is 3+ years old, you need to realize that there's 3 more years of software development, adding features and functions that a lot of people want, built into that new OS, and your old hardware just might not be able to handle that well. That's not a conspiracy, it's just the way technology works.
    I agree the older hardware can't keep up to the newer OS, but then the manufacturer shouldn't push the update for that device. If the OS can't be optimized for the hardware, don't let it upgrade. This way the user experience isn't diminished, and they are actually enticed to upgrade because the new product is better.

    When the average consumer sees the system notification to upgrade, they do not consider that the upgrade will actually hurt their user experience. They just think Apple is providing the service to improve their device. When the unsuspecting customer experiences a sluggish phone thereafter, they can't roll it back to the previous OS (unlike MS, and where your sarcastic analogy doesn't fit). Customers are stuck with a device that works worse than before the update, with the only option to put up with it or upgrade hardware.

    I never said this is a conspiracy. It's just a unethical business practice that I don't have to participate in. It's also very lucrative for Apple.

    My point is that BlackBerry optimized the 10.3.2 experience for the Q10, so the user experience is better today than when launched. Under your logic, the 3 year old Q10 hardware shouldn't have the horsepower to run 10.3 smoothly. And besides the android runtime, it runs it very well. If BlackBerry operated like Apple, the Q10 would have all the sudden acted buggy when the Passport released, "encouraging" users to upgrade.

     Q10
    02-07-16 03:04 AM
  5. ssbtech's Avatar
    Also, their practice of locking down their hardware with sealed in battery means that after two years or so, the customer is forced to pay a hefty price for a battery exchange, so many people just add more money and get a new phone anyways. Sealed in battery makes people pay labour fee + overpriced batteries, for a simple battery change, so this is a form of planned obsolescence.
    I agree, and this is what pisses me off about my Z30. I'll likely have to garbage it when the battery stops holding a charge and get some iDroid crap.
    02-07-16 03:30 AM
  6. hobgoblin1961's Avatar
    Well, that's one opinion.
    But it makes sense....

    Posted via -Classic SQC100-1 / 10.3.++
    02-07-16 04:51 AM
  7. Elephant_Canyon's Avatar
    The knots you people ties yourselves into to demonize Apple are truly impressive.
    02-07-16 08:18 AM
  8. TgeekB's Avatar
    The knots you people ties yourselves into to demonize Apple are truly impressive.
    Exactly. Let's hate a successful company because ours is failing. That will make us feel better.
    02-07-16 08:37 AM
  9. TgeekB's Avatar
    But it makes sense....

    Posted via -Classic SQC100-1 / 10.3.++
    I would say not to the average iPhone user. Sure, a few will complain but it certainly has not slowed down sales.
    02-07-16 08:39 AM
  10. Jerry A's Avatar
    The knots you people ties yourselves into to demonize Apple are truly impressive.
    Amen to that!
    02-07-16 08:43 AM
  11. conite's Avatar
    I agree, and this is what pisses me off about my Z30. I'll likely have to garbage it when the battery stops holding a charge and get some iDroid crap.
    Why? My local phone shop charges $10, and takes 5 minutes, to swap a Z30 battery if you bring them one. They are cheap on Amazon.
    02-07-16 09:11 AM
  12. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I agree, and this is what pisses me off about my Z30. I'll likely have to garbage it when the battery stops holding a charge and get some iDroid crap.
    I have an Android, iPhone,Bb10 and BBOS. The OS is just a means to an end. Each of these operating systems is just a means to an end. Sure I like BB10 but not if it means that I can not do every thing I can do on my iPhone or Android. Once you have used a phone for a while the OS slides into the background. Ultimately once BlackBerry builds a better better skin for Android, their phones will be more capable then the ones they left behind.

    Posted via CB10
    02-07-16 10:34 AM
  13. skstrials's Avatar
    Exactly. Let's hate a successful company because ours is failing. That will make us feel better.
    If you actually read the posts, I have defended MS, which is arguably very successful.

    If you actually read the posts, you would know it is not about hating a successful company.

    Posted via CB10
    02-07-16 11:04 AM
  14. TgeekB's Avatar
    If you actually read the posts, I have defended MS, which is arguably very successful.

    If you actually read the posts, you would know it is not about hating a successful company.

    Posted via CB10
    Was I talking directly to you?
    02-07-16 11:08 AM
  15. skstrials's Avatar
    Was I talking directly to you?
    Nope, but I am included in the posts that you were referring to.



    Posted via CB10
    02-07-16 11:15 AM
  16. hobgoblin1961's Avatar
    I would say not to the average iPhone user. Sure, a few will complain but it certainly has not slowed down sales.
    well you can't help it, most people are not capable of self reflecting or even questioning the faults.

    Posted via -Classic SQC100-1 / 10.3.++
    02-07-16 11:19 AM
  17. TgeekB's Avatar
    well you can't help it, most people are nor capable of self reflecting or even questioning the faults.

    Posted via -Classic SQC100-1 / 10.3.++
    I have used every major phone OS there is. None are perfect. There is not enough room nor time here to debate the positives and negatives. Picking out one fault and making a general statement about an OS does not hold water. People use which one works best for them. The results are clear.
    Bbnivende likes this.
    02-07-16 11:22 AM
  18. Sulaco757's Avatar
    Exactly. Let's hate a successful company because ours is failing. That will make us feel better.
    It not about US vs Them. I am not BlackBerry. You are not Apple. I am also not demonizing Apple. Just pointing out business practices that are apparent to us that jumped on that iPhone fanboi wagon in 2007. Most Apple fans may know but don't care, they're just happily updating to the latest version every year. Afterall, who uses 3 year old hardware when you can afford the best? I recommend Apple products often to folks, even if they aren't my first choice. Often with the advice of "Try to keep your hardware up to date, user experience isn't that great on 2+ year devices." -That's not bad advice for any fixed battery smartphones and applies to the Android world as well.

    By no regards do I believe BlackBerry a better solution for everyone. In a year, they may not even be a viable solution for me. I am mentioning my thanks to a company for optimizing their 3 year old devices. And by no means do I believe that BlackBerry or Chen are doing this out of their benevolent hearts. They are doing it out of pure survival, trying to migrate BBOS users to any BB10 devices they can.

     Q10
    TgeekB, skstrials and ominaxe like this.
    02-07-16 03:02 PM
  19. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I agree the older hardware can't keep up to the newer OS, but then the manufacturer shouldn't push the update for that device. If the OS can't be optimized for the hardware, don't let it upgrade. This way the user experience isn't diminished, and they are actually enticed to upgrade because the new product is better.
    You'd just get everyone complaining that Apple is unfairly denying them the ability to update their existing device in a scheme to force them to upgrade. That's already something people complain about when their device eventually hits the threshold when it isn't updated any further. The current method at least gives people the choice, and it isn't Apple's fault if they choose foolishly for their own needs.

    When the average consumer sees the system notification to upgrade, they do not consider that the upgrade will actually hurt their user experience. They just think Apple is providing the service to improve their device. When the unsuspecting customer experiences a sluggish phone thereafter, they can't roll it back to the previous OS (unlike MS, and where your sarcastic analogy doesn't fit).
    Are you kidding me? You really think that reverting a Windows upgrade (at least, prior to Win10) is something the average person can do? Have you ever actually tried to do it? You end up with an unusable install almost every time. You are fooling yourself (but not most of us) if you think it's something that most people do, or even can do.

    I never said this is a conspiracy. It's just a unethical business practice that I don't have to participate in. It's also very lucrative for Apple.
    You're talking about the ongoing development of technology. Have you replaced the points and tuned the carburetor in your Prius lately? How is your 10base-2 Ethernet network working for you? And I'm guessing you still carry an analog "bag phone" right? No? It it unfair that technology advancements left all of that technology, and all the support systems for that technology, behind? Is it unfair business practices that your car's ECU does the "tune-ups" for your car instead of you?

    The level of victimization here is just insane sometimes.

    My point is that BlackBerry optimized the 10.3.2 experience for the Q10, so the user experience is better today than when launched. Under your logic, the 3 year old Q10 hardware shouldn't have the horsepower to run 10.3 smoothly. And besides the android runtime, it runs it very well. If BlackBerry operated like Apple, the Q10 would have all the sudden acted buggy when the Passport released, "encouraging" users to upgrade.
    These forums are full of people complaining about how slow their devices have become (and how much faster the Passport is due to its better hardware), but I would also submit that BB10 has had much less advancement than the other platforms over the last 3 years. BB only has a fraction of the R&D funds to spend, so it isn't surprising that they haven't moved as far, and thus their hardware requirements haven't grown as quickly. Thus, not really an "apples to apples" comparison.
    Elephant_Canyon and Jerry A like this.
    02-07-16 03:23 PM
  20. Sulaco757's Avatar
    I actually agree to a lot what you've said here Tony. Though I don't have a clue about tuning a Prius and would likely never own one.

    Restoring Windows on a PC was commonly required to operate the computer and keep a smooth and clean operating system. Since the time I started in 2002, it had always been plug the install CD in the drive and hit F12 on startup. Then select "clean install". I would suggest that the common personal PC user did this one time or another in the last 2 decades. It was part of being a PC owner.

    The iPad first gen was limited from updating to iOS 6. It still remains on 5.1.1. Many Apple users were thankful to get another 1-2 years on a device that would have essentially bricked by iOS 6. To this date it is a nice Netflix machine for my 4 year old son. Apple treats the MacBook community similarly. My sister still enjoys her 9 year old Macbook Pro.

    But I agree wholeheartedly that the choice to upgrade is the best method Apple should follow. I would suggest there is a large group of Apple fans that wish for greater transparency on the matter. Even if there were a "recommended" iOS version listed from Apple per device, or at least the option to factory restore to a stable version of the OS that originally released with the phone - which was optimized for that hardware.

    Then Again, most Apple fans know that you always stay within 2 iOS versions that released on your phone, as most MS users know to wait for "Service Pack 1."

     Q10
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 02-08-16 at 12:50 PM. Reason: don't have to add "bois"
    skstrials and ominaxe like this.
    02-07-16 03:59 PM
  21. TgeekB's Avatar
    Does the same go for the iPad? I have an iPad mini 2 and updated it to latest software version and it's running fine.
    02-07-16 04:06 PM
  22. Sulaco757's Avatar
    Does the same go for the iPad? I have an iPad mini 2 and updated it to latest software version and it's running fine.
    Yes.

    Ipad Mini 2 released with iOS 7 in Nov 2013. IOS 9 should work well. I would strongly suggest you don't upgrade to iOS 10 when it releases this fall without watching performance reviews first. They will be easy to find on youtube. Advantage of having all of those fans out there.

     Q10
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 02-08-16 at 12:50 PM. Reason: removed bois
    skstrials likes this.
    02-07-16 06:15 PM
  23. TgeekB's Avatar
    Yes.

    Ipad Mini 2 released with iOS 7 in Nov 2013. IOS 9 should work well. I would strongly suggest you don't upgrade to iOS 10 when it releases this fall without watching performance reviews first. They will be easy to find on youtube. Advantage of having all of those fans out there.

     Q10
    Will do. It's running perfectly right now so should last a couple more years without issue.
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 02-08-16 at 12:51 PM.
    02-07-16 06:47 PM
  24. ssbtech's Avatar
    Why? My local phone shop charges $10, and takes 5 minutes, to swap a Z30 battery if you bring them one. They are cheap on Amazon.
    I don't want a no-name knock-off battery for safety reasons and nobody has been able to tell me where I can get a genuine, OEM battery.

    Posted via CB10
    skstrials likes this.
    02-07-16 09:08 PM
  25. eshropshire's Avatar
    Let's not rewrite history shall we.
    While Blackberry never advertised as much as they should of, they received a ton of free hype and advertising in the run up to the release of BB10 from various sites.
    Blackberry did advertise the Z10 quite extensively as well.
    And have we forgotten already the millions spent on the Superbowl ad which was supposed to change the world? Despite the fact that it was big money for a small sport with limited exposure.
    Then there's the Formula One sponsorship which has probably been the only decent thing done by the marketing team.

    I think the Superbowl ad alone is a major example that money thrown at marketing is in no way a guarantee of success.

    BB10 had much more issues then just lack of advertising. It simply did not appeal to the masses. And that included die hard Blackberry fans as it was legacy devices and their service charges that bankrolled the continuation of BB10 after it flopped.
    They did a lot more than just a Super Bowl add and Formula One. BB spent millions on the launch of BB10 1.0. The problem was the product was way too late from a market perspective but way too soon based on product quality. BB finally got it right with version 2.1, but by then many corporate customer and fan boys were gone. Also, BB had completely messed up their server software, BES 10 was a disaster. They only started to turn things around with BES 12. Again by then many customers had left to find solutions from other vendors.

    For the Chen haters, none of these problems were caused by Chen. He was brought in to perform emergency triage. His options were greatly limited. BB was burning through tons of cash. He probably has made some mistakes, but considering the mess he inherited from the two previous leadership teams it's amazing how well he has done.
    02-07-16 10:00 PM
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