[STV0726]

Hi,

I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that there is not enough pressure being put on BlackBerry to solve the random reboot issue.

I have two Z10 devices. One has the issue, the other does not. I know firsthand how frustrating it can be, but I also know just how darn good of a phone the Z10 is when it acts like it ought to.

I think CrackBerry should post an update every few days on this just to keep it in the headlines. BlackBerry and carriers need to get motivated to fix this ASAP. If a fix has been identified, why is it going to take US carriers until middle of June to push the update instead of end May like we were told at BlackBerry Live?

I can't blame anyone for ditching the Z10. This a major reliability issue and whether you have a device that reboots or not, right now it seems almost like a 50/50 chance when you go and by one. That's not good...that's very, very bad.

So again, not enough pressure is being put on BlackBerry nor the carriers (specifically US carriers). They seem to forget that while there may be some advantages to taking more time to test builds, their customers are still suffering from the random reboots and running out of patience in the mean time, and for many individuals, that will translate into returning the Z10 for another device.

So fix the problem. Fast. And if it is a hardware problem, honesty goes a lot farther than trickery. Solve it quickly and quietly.

I hate to be critical, I really do, but there is something to be said about the frustration that ensues when we check CB daily, hoping for an article about a new development, and....nothing. Yes, I did read Kevin's "through the grapevine" update, but "a future update that should further address those concerns" doesn't sound too reassuring. What we need at this point is a definitive fix. A reduction in reboots won't cut it. If it is software, get a move on and roll the fix out. If it is hardware...oh boy.

My level of frustration and anxiety for BlackBerry as a company must be very apparant in this post. I am a self-admitted CrackBerry addict. If I'm this frustrated, just imagine how angry a newer convert must be.

~STV

[Andrew4life]

Considering that the whole CrackBerry community has yet to find any commonalities between these random reboots, I'd assume BlackBerry is having problems trying to resolve the issue as well.
We just call these "random reboots", but this is similar to the Blue Screen of Death on Windows. You get the BSOD when something messes up on the OS, and it can be attributed to many different things. So for BlackBerry, these "random reboots" can also be attribued to many different things.
I would guess that these reboots are caused from a number of different things that can span from hardware, to core software, to environmental factors such as network connections, etc.

I definitely wish they would fix the problem, but if you've ever done debugging of software, you'd know it's not an easy task. And with over a million lines of code, it's an astronomically big task, especially since code is not necessarily sequential, especially in the multitasking world.

Here is a quick analogy to show how complex things can be. (Extremely simplified of course)
Say you are a secretary trying to serve two people at once. Person A needs a new ID card, and person B is signing out a company car. But then they both start asking questions. So you try to answer them in sequence, but what if someone tries to interrupt. E.g. Person A asks for a pen, so you go get a pen. But then person B asks for the car keys. So you go get the car keys and you go back and you give the items to the wrong people. If you've ever worked in the service industry as a secretary, or customer service, you know simple errors like this can happen. This analogy has 2 customers, now imagine if you had 100 at once. Well, the operating system in a multitasking operating system is just that. It has to do a lot of complicated memory management, program isolation, etc with all the different tasks such as incoming calls, texts, emails, notifications, push email, background applications, graphics rendering, and the list goes on.

Of course this is not necessarily only a problem with BB10. iOS and Android also has to deal with a lot of the same problems. The difference being iOS and Android has a huge company and lots of employees. BlackBerry, not so much. It'll take some time to get to the bottom of this. Given the number of fixes we've seen in 10.1 I can only see good things for the next OS release.

[Shanerredflag]

I'm thinking it's an app that the reboot issues have in common...not an expert but seems to me QNX reboots quickly when it loses control of function or logical process. Why else would it happen to just a few (relative term), can't be OS software and hardware appears to be a distant possibility now too.

Posted via CB10

[STV0726]

I'm thinking it's an app that the reboot issues have in common...not an expert but seems to me QNX reboots quickly when it loses control of function or logical process. Why else would it happen to just a few (relative term), can't be OS software and hardware appears to be a distant possibility now too.

Posted via CB10

The Z10 I have that is rebooting is at factory defaults with nothing changed.

If it is software it's OS/internal.

~STV

[steven55]

How often in one day would it reboot? is it every few hours or every few days?

[Shanerredflag]

The Z10 I have that is rebooting is at factory defaults with nothing changed.

If it is software it's OS/internal.

~STV

Makes me wonder if all the factory installed apps are identical versions to all the non effected devices? I don't know...just throwing it out there.

Posted via CB10

[donmateo]

It does make one wonder what the difference is and why some people have the persistent problem and other don't. Especially when dealing with multiple devices. I have had 2, returned the first for lag issues, but neither has ever rebooted randomly. Not once. I am on AT&T and use the phone all day, a multitude of apps, browser, music, etc.

[eve6er69]

Read kevins post about it. He found common. Os's and carriers that were common in reboots.

Sent from my game boy color

[Thunderbuck]

This likely doesn't have much to do with apps (though some poorly-written ones might possibly trigger it).

Some of this seems to be carrier-dependent (I think I'm seeing a high number of reports from T-Mo users), though I'm not completely sure what that signifies. Radio version likely plays a role.

This Snapdragon S4 chipset has seen reboot issues on other phones, the Lumia 920 being the worst (and apparently it's still not completely solved there).

For users, I'd suggest a few troubleshooting ideas: 1) If there are specific times of the day when it happens, try shutting off wireless coverage. If the reboots still happen, it's likely a hardware issue. 2) Reinstall the OS and install as few apps as you can manage (preferably nothing, at least for a day or two) 3) I PERSONALLY think that there's at least an outside chance that cheap microSD storage cards could contribute to the problem 4) Reboots can be a symptom of a "thermal issue" (i.e. overheating). If your phone is in a case, try going "naked" for a couple of days and see if it helps.

I don't get the notion of "not enough pressure". That seems to suggest that OP thinks that BB is somehow either unaware of this problem or unwilling to do anything about it, both of which I know are completely false. I'm not sure what additional "pressure" can be applied; BB's very existence depends on these phones selling successfully, and this is the biggest issue that's presented itself so far.

[Thunderbuck]

Hi,

I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that there is not enough pressure being put on BlackBerry to solve the random reboot issue.

I have two Z10 devices. One has the issue, the other does not. I know firsthand how frustrating it can be, but I also know just how darn good of a phone the Z10 is when it acts like it ought to.

I think CrackBerry should post an update every few days on this just to keep it in the headlines. BlackBerry and carriers need to get motivated to fix this ASAP. If a fix has been identified, why is it going to take US carriers until middle of June to push the update instead of end May like we were told at BlackBerry Live?

So, you figure that shaming them is going to get the problem solved faster? You don't think they're already investigating this with every resource they have to bear on it?

And as for the timing of the updates, ESPECIALLY given this issue, wouldn't you want the carriers to test the updates as much as possible to ensure they don't cause other unintended issues?

I can't blame anyone for ditching the Z10. This a major reliability issue and whether you have a device that reboots or not, right now it seems almost like a 50/50 chance when you go and by one. That's not good...that's very, very bad.

I'll go further; if the phone isn't working for you, REPLACE IT WITH ONE THAT WILL. I don't think this is affecting more than a small percentage of customers, and updates seem to be slowly addressing the issue, but I can completely respect that the users who are affected by this are finding it frustrating. Don't be bitter. If a BB10 device just won't work for whatever reason, find a device that does. BB would rather see you go than have you complain about their product for the next two years.

So again, not enough pressure is being put on BlackBerry nor the carriers (specifically US carriers). They seem to forget that while there may be some advantages to taking more time to test builds, their customers are still suffering from the random reboots and running out of patience in the mean time, and for many individuals, that will translate into returning the Z10 for another device.

Logical fallacy. Your argument comes down to: "The problem's not fixed, so they must not be working hard enough." That principle could be applied to an endless list of problems that have yet to be solved, but it doesn't actually mean nobody's trying to fix it. All kinds of people have been working on world hunger for years. I'm not equating the Z10 reboot issue with world hunger by any means, but difficult, intermittent technical issues can be amazingly tough to isolate sometimes.

So fix the problem. Fast. And if it is a hardware problem, honesty goes a lot farther than trickery. Solve it quickly and quietly.

I hate to be critical, I really do, but there is something to be said about the frustration that ensues when we check CB daily, hoping for an article about a new development, and....nothing. Yes, I did read Kevin's "through the grapevine" update, but "a future update that should further address those concerns" doesn't sound too reassuring. What we need at this point is a definitive fix. A reduction in reboots won't cut it. If it is software, get a move on and roll the fix out. If it is hardware...oh boy.

My level of frustration and anxiety for BlackBerry as a company must be very apparant in this post. I am a self-admitted CrackBerry addict. If I'm this frustrated, just imagine how angry a newer convert must be.

~STV

I get that you're frustrated. I would be too, if I were seeing repeated reboots like you are. I just wonder what makes you think it's not being worked on?

[STV0726]

This likely doesn't have much to do with apps (though some poorly-written ones might possibly trigger it).

Some of this seems to be carrier-dependent (I think I'm seeing a high number of reports from T-Mo users), though I'm not completely sure what that signifies. Radio version likely plays a role.

This Snapdragon S4 chipset has seen reboot issues on other phones, the Lumia 920 being the worst (and apparently it's still not completely solved there).

For users, I'd suggest a few troubleshooting ideas: 1) If there are specific times of the day when it happens, try shutting off wireless coverage. If the reboots still happen, it's likely a hardware issue. 2) Reinstall the OS and install as few apps as you can manage (preferably nothing, at least for a day or two) 3) I PERSONALLY think that there's at least an outside chance that cheap microSD storage cards could contribute to the problem 4) Reboots can be a symptom of a "thermal issue" (i.e. overheating). If your phone is in a case, try going "naked" for a couple of days and see if it helps.

I don't get the notion of "not enough pressure". That seems to suggest that OP thinks that BB is somehow either unaware of this problem or unwilling to do anything about it, both of which I know are completely false. I'm not sure what additional "pressure" can be applied; BB's very existence depends on these phones selling successfully, and this is the biggest issue that's presented itself so far.

1) All of your suggestions above are probably not "it" because my device rebooting is at factory defaults with no added apps and only wifi on. Sitting on the desk all day and night with only clock and weather opened waiting for it to reboot. It has rebooted once per day for the last four days now. And no sd card or overheating.

I have come to the conclusion whether it is software or hardware, it is something wrong with the core of the device. At least in one of the main causes, that is.

2) When I say that not enough pressure is put it is because I am frustrated beyond belief that "previously reported issue with no ETA on fix" is all we get. Loyal BlackBerry customers and Z10 early adopters deserve better or RIM has learned nothing.

In the words of Kevin, "I rant because I love you, BlackBerry."

I also want CrackBerry to put more media pressure on RIM because currently it is just a "?" as to how widespread the issue is. That's not relevant to those desperately needing a fix. For the purposes of solving this major issue quickly, RIM should assume everyone may be effected to some degree and drop everything to fix this.

I understand an issue like this can take time, but again, this is why I feel all focus needs to go to this before it becomes a bigger issue.

~STV

[Thunderbuck]

And, again, I get the frustration.

Just because BB isn't saying a lot doesn't mean they're not doing a lot. This launch is important to them, and issues such as this one can be poisonous. That would also be why they're not saying a lot; the more they say, the more it gets talked about. That has no impact whatsoever on how much effort is going into a fix (they've likely already got everyone on it that's available already), but it would absolutely affect sales.

And I disagree that they should "assume everyone may be effected (sic)", because nowhere near "everyone" is. Personally, at this point I'm acquainted with possibly a couple hundred Z10 users on several carriers. Absolutely none have experienced spontaneous reboots (and I've been asking). To raise the alarm to the degree you're asking wouldn't bring a fix any quicker (because again, I think they're already using all the resources they have), but it would affect the brand's credibility, just when they're starting to rebuild it effectively.

The behavior you've described, under the conditions you describe, suggest a defective device, and this can happen with virtually ANY product. Especially when you say you have another one that's just fine. The defective one should be replaceable under warranty.

[STV0726]

And, again, I get the frustration.

Just because BB isn't saying a lot doesn't mean they're not doing a lot. This launch is important to them, and issues such as this one can be poisonous. That would also be why they're not saying a lot; the more they say, the more it gets talked about. That has no impact whatsoever on how much effort is going into a fix (they've likely already got everyone on it that's available already), but it would absolutely affect sales.

And I disagree that they should "assume everyone may be effected (sic)", because nowhere near "everyone" is. Personally, at this point I'm acquainted with possibly a couple hundred Z10 users on several carriers. Absolutely none have experienced spontaneous reboots (and I've been asking). To raise the alarm to the degree you're asking wouldn't bring a fix any quicker (because again, I think they're already using all the resources they have), but it would affect the brand's credibility, just when they're starting to rebuild it effectively.

The behavior you've described, under the conditions you describe, suggest a defective device, and this can happen with virtually ANY product. Especially when you say you have another one that's just fine. The defective one should be replaceable under warranty.

T-Mobile will not replace it until they roll out their 10.1 build and the issue still persists, which they think it won't at this point since *supposedly* they are working with BlackBerry to ensure by the time they release it, the random reboot issue is solved.

It is just so ridiculous that we US users have to wait until mid June (that is until they delay it yet again) to MAYBE get a random reboot-free device.

What I hope happens is BlackBerry solves it, as Kevin has implied, and they release a small update to 10.1 and then the Canadian carriers approve it quickly as they usually do, then we US users can use an unprovisioned SIM to get it.

And I maintain my disagreement with the ideology that BlackBerry should remain silent. Silence gives the impression of lack of action or drive, which causes people to abandon ship.

They need to solve this quickly because once word gets out here in the US, it will be game over. People won't look back. That's for darn near sure. Logic won't matter. Excuses like first gen won't matter. The fact that other phones have had this issue, particularly the Lumia won't matter. People will just say that BlackBerry still sucks and always will.


I cannot stress how important it is to solve this. If it is a hardware issue and they are trying to release a software build that will reduce the issue but not solve it, that's the wrong move. That would be crappy of them to do. If it is hardware, they need to work extremely quickly and quietly with carriers to just exchange devices to customers as fast as possible.

~STV

[Thunderbuck]

T-Mobile will not replace it until they roll out their 10.1 build and the issue still persists, which they think it won't at this point since *supposedly* they are working with BlackBerry to ensure by the time they release it, the random reboot issue is solved.

It is just so ridiculous that we US users have to wait until mid June (that is until they delay it yet again) to MAYBE get a random reboot-free device.

Okay, can't deny, that TOTALLY sucks. So you've got a device you can't rely on AND the carrier won't actually address it because a fix is coming. Someday.

What I hope happens is BlackBerry solves it, as Kevin has implied, and they release a small update to 10.1 and then the Canadian carriers approve it quickly as they usually do, then we US users can use an unprovisioned SIM to get it.

And I maintain my disagreement with the ideology that BlackBerry should remain silent. Silence gives the impression of lack of action or drive, which causes people to abandon ship.

I wasn't trying to say that staying quiet was the right way to handle the issue, I was just saying I could understand why BB might make that choice. I think they're afraid of anything that might discourage sales in this quarter. The current quarter ends in a few days, and we might find BB being a little more forthcoming about the issue.

They need to solve this quickly because once word gets out here in the US, it will be game over. People won't look back. That's for darn near sure. Logic won't matter. Excuses like first gen won't matter. The fact that other phones have had this issue, particularly the Lumia won't matter. People will just say that BlackBerry still sucks and always will.


I cannot stress how important it is to solve this. If it is a hardware issue and they are trying to release a software build that will reduce the issue but not solve it, that's the wrong move. That would be crappy of them to do. If it is hardware, they need to work extremely quickly and quietly with carriers to just exchange devices to customers as fast as possible.

~STV

These points, I agree with completely. BlackBerry is in a battle to reestablish relevance as much as anything else, and word of widespread device issues could kill this very effectively. And I believe that they know it well.

[avatsaev]

What is this all about. I have Z10STL100-2/10.1.0.1880 and never had this problem... ever.

Posted via CB10

[ibpluto]

What is this all about. I have Z10STL100-2/10.1.0.1880 and never had this problem... ever.

Posted via CB10

I think the great majority don't have the issue. If I were to guess maybe 1-2%. I'm surrounded by Z10's and Q10's at this point (the popularity of the new BB here in Ontario and in Canada in Gernal is pretty impressive....I have now seen so many in the wild). My family is all switched over, all of my best friends and spouses are switched over. I have a few friends that work for BB (of course they have them). Of the couple dozen or so Z10's I know of, not a single person has the issue. Of the random folks I have spoken to, no one has eluded to having a reboot issue. Purely ancedotal, but needs to be taken with a raised brow. I think the few folks that are having this issue are here looking for answers, so it seems far more wide spread then it is.

I think (if I were a guessing man), as was mentioned, it is more carrier specific, there is something there causing the fuss (I no longer discount the issue to BS). I can only say I notice the phone does not react well to limited cell coverage, so perhaps if you are with a certian carrier living in a sweet spot and popping between towers or fishing between ajoining signals, a heat build up or memory drain might cause the reboot.....dunno thou.

I only know I nor anyone else I know has had this issue. It would drive me bonkers if I did thou

[kbz1960]

I think the great majority don't have the issue. If I were to guess maybe 1-2%. I'm surrounded by Z10's and Q10's at this point (the popularity of the new BB here in Ontario and in Canada in Gernal is pretty impressive....I have now seen so many in the wild). My family is all switched over, all of my best friends and spouses are switched over. I have a few friends that work for BB (of course they have them). Of the couple dozen or so Z10's I know of, not a single person has the issue. Of the random folks I have spoken to, no one has eluded to having a reboot issue. Purely ancedotal, but needs to be taken with a raised brow. I think the few folks that are having this issue are here looking for answers, so it seems far more wide spread then it is.

I think (if I were a guessing man), as was mentioned, it is more carrier specific, there is something there causing the fuss (I no longer discount the issue to BS). I can only say I notice the phone does not react well to limited cell coverage, so perhaps if you are with a certian carrier living in a sweet spot and popping between towers or fishing between ajoining signals, a heat build up or memory drain might cause the reboot.....dunno thou.

I only know I nor anyone else I know has had this issue. It would drive me bonkers if I did thou

Exactly why I wouldn't touch one right now even if I could.

[STV0726]

At lot more than 2%...sorry.

1/3 at least.

~STV

[416to604]

At lot more than 2%...sorry.

1/3 at least.

~STV

I agree this is a huge issue that needs to be addressed, but I agree with ibpluto here. I personally know many people with z10s who do not have this issue, yet when I come on CB forums it seems more widespread. I think this is a relatively small number of users (in regards to total z10 owners) who are coming to CB for help or info on the issue. If it was 1/3 of all z10s then news outlets would be all over this and the z10 would be considered a failure

Posted via CB10

[ibpluto]

At lot more than 2%...sorry.

1/3 at least.

~STV

No freaking chance....

Posted via CB10 from my awesome Z10

[STV0726]

Both of you need to look at the polls. Even if they're wrong by a decent margin it still is more than 1-2%.

Let's also not forget that common users won't tend to notice or complain unless it reboots while they are using phone.

Middle of the night reboots are only noticed and thus reported by those watching for them.

Can we please stop making this a pissing contest over how many users are affected? There's enough affected where it shouldn't matter. Let's fix this crap before iPeople and Droidies catch on widespread and laugh at 100% of BlackBerry 10 users because you know just as well as I do US media looks for reasons to bash BlackBerry. They will just call it out like all Z10s are affected.

I can already see the headlines...


"CrackBerry fan site calls BlackBerry 10 'very swipey', fails to mention it is also very rebooty."

~STV

[12Danny123]

This likely doesn't have much to do with apps (though some poorly-written ones might possibly trigger it).

Some of this seems to be carrier-dependent (I think I'm seeing a high number of reports from T-Mo users), though I'm not completely sure what that signifies. Radio version likely plays a role.

This Snapdragon S4 chipset has seen reboot issues on other phones, the Lumia 920 being the worst (and apparently it's still not completely solved there).

For users, I'd suggest a few troubleshooting ideas: 1) If there are specific times of the day when it happens, try shutting off wireless coverage. If the reboots still happen, it's likely a hardware issue. 2) Reinstall the OS and install as few apps as you can manage (preferably nothing, at least for a day or two) 3) I PERSONALLY think that there's at least an outside chance that cheap microSD storage cards could contribute to the problem 4) Reboots can be a symptom of a "thermal issue" (i.e. overheating). If your phone is in a case, try going "naked" for a couple of days and see if it helps.

I don't get the notion of "not enough pressure". That seems to suggest that OP thinks that BB is somehow either unaware of this problem or unwilling to do anything about it, both of which I know are completely false. I'm not sure what additional "pressure" can be applied; BB's very existence depends on these phones selling successfully, and this is the biggest issue that's presented itself so far.

I have a Lumia 920. WTF? are you talking about. I hadn't had a single reboot on my phone since February. it was solved ages ago. don't judge if don't have a Lumia 920

Sent using my Z10

[STV0726]

I have a Lumia 920. WTF? are you talking about. I hadn't had a single reboot on my phone since February. it was solved ages ago. don't judge if don't have a Lumia 920

Sent using my Z10

Calm down.

When BlackBerry fixes our reboot issue we will be saying the same thing.

~STV

[Raestloz]

Both of you need to look at the polls. Even if they're wrong by a decent margin it still is more than 1-2%.

Let's also not forget that common users won't tend to notice or complain unless it reboots while they are using phone.

Middle of the night reboots are only noticed and thus reported by those watching for them.

Can we please stop making this a pissing contest over how many users are affected? There's enough affected where it shouldn't matter. Let's fix this crap before iPeople and Droidies catch on widespread and laugh at 100% of BlackBerry 10 users because you know just as well as I do US media looks for reasons to bash BlackBerry. They will just call it out like all Z10s are affected.

I can already see the headlines...


"CrackBerry fan site calls BlackBerry 10 'very swipey', fails to mention it is also very rebooty."

~STV

What poll?
Does it include all Z10 users in the entire world?

Might want to check on tech sites all over the world, see if anyone mentions random rebooting.

I understand the frustration and the looming feel of entitlement, but currently they're working on a fix. This isn't a matter of asking Texas Instruments to make better chip, for example.

Yes, I know the frustration. I have Skyrim since v1.1

Posted via CrackBerry 10

[MarsupilamiX]

I have a Lumia 920. WTF? are you talking about. I hadn't had a single reboot on my phone since February. it was solved ages ago. don't judge if don't have a Lumia 920

Sent using my Z10

He may refer to one of these reports:

http://www.discussions.nokia.com/t5/...f/td-p/1603244

http://www.discussions.nokia.com/t5/...y/td-p/1633210

http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/18/3...battery-issues

http://www.answers.microsoft.com/en-...a-672c5cbb5d1c


Posted via CB10