07-08-12 11:44 AM
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  1. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Selling a ton? How many more ton did MS sell? Since we always talk about market share in smartphones shouldn't we also talk about in pc's?
    kbz1960 likes this.
    07-06-12 07:50 AM
  2. addicted44's Avatar
    Selling a ton? How many more ton did MS sell? Since we always talk about market share in smartphones shouldn't we also talk about in pc's?

    What makes apple profitable is high profit margins not selling a ton. You can sell a ton of gum at 2 cents a piece with a profit margin of 1 cent or you can sell that same piece of gum for 4 cents with a profit margin of 3 cents. OK you've done well selling basically the same thing for a lot more money. Good for the company and I guess also consumers who like to spend more than needed.
    Ton was a poor choice of words. The mac plays exactly the role you mention. A high margin PC aimed at the higher end of the market. The playbook does not play that role (if anything, it is negative margin). As a result the metrics of failure/success should be different for the two. (For example, you don't use the same metrics to judge the success of a Honda and a BMW).

    Yup, mac sales were indeed good for the company. Playbook sales weren't. Hence one was a success and the other is not. Note, that even the mac wasn't always a success. Only once it started earning money for Apple did it become a success. It was correctly considered a failure before.

    The PB can also turn it around, but until now, by most objective standards it isn't a success yet.
    07-06-12 08:24 AM
  3. addicted44's Avatar
    It would be nice if people who consider the Playbook a success would explain their definition of "success" (note, I am talking about a success from RIM's perspective, and not a personal perspective).

    Hurds gave a definition which was basically "tablet not based on a smartphone OS". I prefer "either generates sustainable profits, and if not, builds significant marketshare which could be converted to sustainable profits in the future".
    07-06-12 08:27 AM
  4. kbz1960's Avatar
    Research and development. The success will only be seen if and when bb10 is a success or a failure. I'm sure other companies have spent as much or much more on r&d.
    addicted44 likes this.
    07-06-12 08:34 AM
  5. addicted44's Avatar
    Research and development. The success will only be seen if and when bb10 is a success or a failure. I'm sure other companies have spent as much or much more on r&d.
    Thanks. So from what I understand you would consider PB as a testbed for BB10, and therefore the success of PB is dependent on the success of BB10 devices.

    Obvious follow up question is what would you consider a success for BB10? Personally, I would call BB10 successful if it brings RIM back to profitability, and brings BB back into the general conversation when talking about high end smartphones, as a real alternative to iOS and Android.
    MasterOfBinary likes this.
    07-06-12 08:39 AM
  6. kbz1960's Avatar
    Thanks. So from what I understand you would consider PB as a testbed for BB10, and therefore the success of PB is dependent on the success of BB10 devices.

    Obvious follow up question is what would you consider a success for BB10? Personally, I would call BB10 successful if it brings RIM back to profitability, and brings BB back into the general conversation when talking about high end smartphones, as a real alternative to iOS and Android.
    Yep..................
    addicted44 likes this.
    07-06-12 08:57 AM
  7. dandbj13's Avatar
    Sales mean little to me and I don't define success of a product for myself based on sales. I get other people see apple as the be all end all and just care about how many other people bought the same product as the only thing that matters. I base success of something as it pertains to me, an individual because again I use what works best for me. I never say, 'oh, everyone is buying that, I will too'. The masses are often wrong...
    First, why are we looking for a new definition of failure? What's wrong with the old one?

    Second. Success and failure are not subject to your individual whim. What you, personally like and dislike have no bearing on the true meaning of success and failure. Lengthy lists of personal preferences, not withstanding. Success and failure is based on a predetermined set of measurable criteria, against which, performance can be tested. It is neither arbitrary, nor can it be redefined after the fact. To know if something failed, you must know what metric it was intended to meet from the start.

    In the PB's case, we have some idea, but not specifics. It was to mark the end of amateur hour. Did it. You can kind of measure that. It was to be the world's firs, professional-grade tablet. Was it? Also measurable. More generally, we can infer that it was to be considered a major product play in an important product category, not some testbed for a hidden agenda. Did it live up to that expectation. It was to be the first, "real" competition for the iPad. Was it? That is measurable. Even more generally, it should have been a profitable boon to both RIM and the shareholders. Was it? That, too, is measurable.

    No part of the definition of success is, are you, OP, personally, happy with the product. RIM, and frankly, no one else dives a tinker's damn. Still. If you choose to define success by your personal satisfaction with the product, you must also define failure by other people's dissatisfaction with the product. How about the dissatisfaction of all the reviewers of the product, and I mean practically ALL of them? How about the dissatisfaction of all those people who saw it on display in stores, tried it, and didn't like it? How about all those faithful BB users, the vast majority of whom took a pass on it, regardless of what software it was running?

    No, I see no need to butcher the English language just to redefine the PB as something other than the failure it was, especially since we already have a word that is perfect for the job. I believe the word you are groping for is, spin. If you want to spin the PB as a success based on your arbitrary preferences, be my guest. There may be a career in politics or journalism ahead of you. But you don't get to redefine words just because they get applied to your favorite company.
    07-06-12 09:27 AM
  8. BoldPreza's Avatar
    Honestly? One it failed in terms of not meeting sales expectations. Two it failed in terms of expected performance. Three it failed as a business venture as it caused a major writedown.

    That to me says failure. I may like the product but that doesn't mean I have to lie to myself and say it wasn't a failure or try and make a case that there should be a new definition of failure.
    amazinglygraceless likes this.
    07-06-12 09:33 AM
  9. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Thanks. So from what I understand you would consider PB as a testbed for BB10, and therefore the success of PB is dependent on the success of BB10 devices.

    Obvious follow up question is what would you consider a success for BB10? Personally, I would call BB10 successful if it brings RIM back to profitability, and brings BB back into the general conversation when talking about high end smartphones, as a real alternative to iOS and Android.
    I'm sure this was not the original intent for the PB, and in that regard, as much as I love mine, it would have to initially be considered a market failure. However, to kbz's point, I agree that the final chapter on the PB has yet to be written. PB hardware and OS updates are coming, as well as BB10 with what should be an even better integration between the two. If BB10 is successful, even just by the measures you noted, I think you'd have to include the PB in the conversation for having laid the groundwork for the platform.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    07-06-12 09:41 AM
  10. anon1727506's Avatar
    What is the true failure is that RIM is continuing the PlayBook line at this point with the 4G PlayBook.


    Personally I think they should just drop the tablet for now. Get BB10 completed and release some new phones, then build on the success of the phone to release a new compatible tablet. (At the least they won't be losing additional time, energy and cash that could be used to market BB10 or to promote it in other ways)
    07-06-12 09:42 AM
  11. kbz1960's Avatar
    I'm sure this was not the original intent for the PB, and in that regard, as much as I love mine, it would have to initially be considered a market failure. However, to kbz's point, I agree that the final chapter on the PB has yet to be written. PB hardware and OS updates are coming, as well as BB10 with what should be an even better integration between the two. If BB10 is successful, even just by the measures you noted, I think you'd have to include the PB in the conversation for having laid the groundwork for the platform.
    I think the original intent was partly a test bed but I'm sure they thought the function still missing would have been on it long ago and it is still a useful device for some of us. I think they have gone back to the drawing board too many times. Pick something and stick with it.
    07-06-12 09:52 AM
  12. sleepngbear's Avatar
    What is the true failure is that RIM is continuing the PlayBook line at this point with the 4G PlayBook.


    Personally I think they should just drop the tablet for now. Get BB10 completed and release some new phones, then build on the success of the phone to release a new compatible tablet. (At the least they won't be losing additional time, energy and cash that could be used to market BB10 or to promote it in other ways)
    That's one way to look at it. Another way is that they have made a huge investment in it and they plan on continuing with it for the long term. To put the brakes on now would lose any momentum it might have (which admittedly is not much), leaving the impression that they've given up on it. You know that will be loud and clear message, and once they do decide to resume efforts on a tab, they will basically be starting over from worse than square one. Not to mention the mixed message it would send to both current and prospective customers if they were to discontinue the line even temporarily after insisting that they will remain committed to the tablet market.

    Considering where RIM is now and the singular platform objective for both phones and tablets come BB10, I think it's a better strategy to stay the course rather than let the line disappear into complete obscurity.
    07-06-12 10:06 AM
  13. BoldPreza's Avatar
    What is the true failure is that RIM is continuing the PlayBook line at this point with the 4G PlayBook.


    Personally I think they should just drop the tablet for now. Get BB10 completed and release some new phones, then build on the success of the phone to release a new compatible tablet. (At the least they won't be losing additional time, energy and cash that could be used to market BB10 or to promote it in other ways)
    I kind of disagree. I think they need to put some marketing behind it as they launch the 4G. I think they really need to focus on its compact size, owners on here love that they can keep it in a suit jacket, so sell that. Its will be 4G capable, sell that. Still support Flash, sell that. And show off the Bridge feature! I had no idea about that till I came to this site.

    I mean the launch can still be a success but its what they do with it. the commercial is so easy to do even!
    07-06-12 10:10 AM
  14. Astroglide's Avatar
    could you make this charts form Jan 2007 until oct 2009 when windows 7 was released? I would like to see how vista really hold up vs. mac...
    07-06-12 10:18 AM
  15. sleepngbear's Avatar
    I think the original intent was partly a test bed but I'm sure they thought the function still missing would have been on it long ago and it is still a useful device for some of us. I think they have gone back to the drawing board too many times. Pick something and stick with it.
    Yup, 'partly' a testbed. And I think that will prove invaluable for the stability of BB10; for all we know it already has. But Mike and Jim clearly expected the PlayBook would go toe-to-toe with the iPad. I think they were the only two life forms in the known universe and beyond who thought that; but the expectation from the rest of us was still that it would do much better than it did.

    Consistency of purpose and target audience is something they've never been able to do with the thing, which has been plaguing it right from the start. But I think they may be starting to get some focus here. We'll likely find out soon with 2.1 and 4G. IPad killer, nope; but a viable alternative among the others is still a very attainable goal.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    07-06-12 10:29 AM
  16. MasterOfBinary's Avatar
    could you make this charts form Jan 2007 until oct 2009 when windows 7 was released? I would like to see how vista really hold up vs. mac...
    OS Statistics

    Basically Mac went from ~3.5% to ~5% before the release of Windows 7. XP was still the most popular OS.
    07-06-12 10:49 AM
  17. morlock_man's Avatar
    The Playbook is a failure in the same way the Avro Arrow was a failure.

    Both offer significant advancements making them technologically superior, but they were both panned by the media due to an American deepseated fear of Canadian technological domination over a global marketplace.

    But this isn't military technology, even though it can certainly power military applications. It won't go the same way as the Avro.
    07-06-12 11:26 AM
  18. Astroglide's Avatar
    OS Statistics

    Basically Mac went from ~3.5% to ~5% before the release of Windows 7. XP was still the most popular OS.
    Thanks.


    I think your assessment is correct. Actually, vista was up sometimes for a huge margin over mac in some occasions. Unfortunately, the crowd preferred to stay on the old XP platform due all the problems vista had on the release.
    07-06-12 04:35 PM
  19. dagerlach's Avatar
    I would say that RIM has met my expectations with the Playbook. BUT, it took nearly a year to get it to where it was supposed to be at release. It is not a failure, it was definitely a disappointment for quite awhile. If I hadn't taken it on travel, I would have taken it back to Best Buy.

    The early adopters of the Playbook were beta testers for the current OS and we were beta testers for the preparation of BB10 OS. For all the frustration with the device and OS, RIM should be thanking us with a special release of the new BB10 devices.

    Was the Playbook a disappointment to RIM in terms of sales. I think so.

    The Playbook has paved the way to BB10 which most-likely will bring RIM out of their slump. Without QNX, RIM probably wouldn't last another year.

    The real question is, do you think RIM should have gone straight to developing QNX for a Blackberry Phone and skipped the Playbook or was the development of the Playbook so instrumental to BB10?
    07-06-12 04:57 PM
  20. morlock_man's Avatar
    I'd say there's no question that the Playbook has been instrumental in developing BB10.
    07-06-12 05:12 PM
  21. blackberry-unlocking710's Avatar
    The PB is not a failure as for a device / hardware.
    Blackberry, in the last 2 years seems like a failure.. so people didn't buy the playbook, it didn't sell that good but it's a good device with great hardware.
    It's a marketing failure.
    elphie28 likes this.
    07-08-12 12:05 AM
  22. Blacklatino's Avatar
    Sales are the only thing that matters. No one buys the PlayBook. Therefore it is a failure. The PlayBook could have the best of everything and it is still a failure. The PlayBook has great cameras.
    Too many people here are confusing quality of the product with commercial success.
    I agree. I like my PlayBook. But, it doesn't change the fact that RIM took a loss. Right now, any loss for RIM is a big loss. Which is my concern with BB10 devices......as time passes by.
    07-08-12 12:12 AM
  23. itmccb's Avatar
    Not being a success doesn't mean you're a failure.
    terminatorx likes this.
    07-08-12 12:30 AM
  24. omniusovermind's Avatar
    Repost this topic in December, when more companies have learned their lessons in he tablet sector and the results of that are on the shelves. The PB as of this date for around $200 is a great buy. Other than that though...
    07-08-12 08:27 AM
  25. JTATL's Avatar
    Not being a success doesn't mean you're a failure.
    Yes it does, thats the same mentality that rewards participation ribbons to children so they don't feel like losers. The problem is in the real word failure is failure and people and companies learn more from failures than they will ever learn from success.

    Chalk this up to experience, call it a work in progress, learn from failure, but its disingenuous to move the goalposts and try to change meanings, that doesn't work well in business.
    07-08-12 08:54 AM
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