1. raino's Avatar
    Until now, I had been in the "RIM must have submitted their phones too late for US carriers' testing and a February release" camp, but now I'm starting to think otherwise--that it's the carriers that are to be blamed for the delay. The reason is LTE bands. Hear me out.

    LTE is the future. The Big Four (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, and T-Mobile) either have deployed their LTE networks, or are in the process of doing so. Source 1, source 2, source 3 all show that at least one variant of the Z10 is quad band LTE 700/850/1700/1900. If we are to assume that the phones have all the bands (or classes) in the frequency* (Helloo Paratek acquisition), this configuration is good enough to cover the current or planned LTE frequencies of the Big Four, and also smaller carriers with LTE networks like MetroPCS (TMO acquisition), US Cellular (Sprint acquisition), etc. So, if unlocked, any of the Big Four networks' Z10 could work on the other three's LTE networks. This is huge, and could be a deal breaker for the US carriers. And this is why I'm starting to think that the carriers (at least two--AT&T and Verizon) are having RIM produce the device to their restricted LTE specs so that there is no possibility of cross-network LTE roaming, or users taking their Z10s to another network once their contract is over/they pay the ETF and get it carrier unlocked/buy it retail and get it carrier unlocked or any other situation that is not in their best financial interests. He11, maybe this is why Sprint isn't carrying the Z10.

    This LTE band customization has happened with the iPhone 5. Both models A1428 and A1429 have the 700 MHz LTE frequencies that AT&T and Verizon use, but they have different bands (700b and 700c) that prevent inter-network operation. That is to say, an AT&T iPhone 5 cannot get LTE on the Verizon network, and vice-versa. So who's to say that the American carriers didn't wise up to RIM's efforts to make the Z10 a true world phone?

    For reference purposes, here are some LTE frequency and band listings, courtesy of Wikipedia and Anandtech:

    AT&T: 1700/2100/700 band 17
    Verizon: 700 band 13
    Sprint: 1900
    T-Mobile: 1700

    TL;DR? I'm suggesting implicit collusion. Lol.




    *I cannot stress enough how important this assumption is to my (conspiracy) theory. See the iPhone example. If all bands are not included with the frequencies, my theory is moot.
    bungaboy likes this.
    02-03-13 03:01 AM
  2. CranBerry413's Avatar
    It is funny that you mention this. I remember there being a thread immediately after the Paratek acquisition that had the same idea. We (myself and a few other conspiracy chaps) pondered if the Paratek move was for this very reason. And as a Sprint Customer, I'm sure they are doing everything they can to prevent people from using their phones on other networks.

    It's really a shame, because roaming is a big part of owing a cell phone. I'm sure that there is a money aspect to this. But this is a solid idea OP.
    02-03-13 07:45 AM
  3. Skeevecr's Avatar
    I think you are reading too much into this whole thing when the reality is far simpler, at&t and vzw are simply slower than everyone else at approving new handsets unless it is one they are desperate for like an iphone.

    As far as the paratek stuff, I wish rim would actually come out and say how they are using it because there are so many posts that come across as people thinking it is some part magical wand when it comes to antennas.
    02-03-13 09:27 AM
  4. FrankPCS's Avatar
    Sprint's LTE is band 25 in 1900mHz land (with band 20 in 800mHz coming online as iDEN is phased out). So on the outset, Sprint wouldn't be able to collude as initially it was already left out.
    02-03-13 09:29 AM
  5. tonyrenier's Avatar
    Well,
    My interest in this issue is threefold.

    First, I've been loyal to BlackBery because it has provided a quality, reliable product which has made it possible for me to be "on call" for my clinic for years. I had a brief period with a Samsung Moment phone, I use linux on various computers at home and "assumed" that I would attain similar security with Google's iteration of Linux ( you don't need to tell me the *** u me line, I found out). As a matter of fact I suspect that they have made other distros at risk due to their sloppy vetting. When the CEO of Lookout announced that they would not write their app for BB10 my response was "No Sh.T!, BB doesn't need it and they know it. Again, Financial "Tech" writers were all over it.

    Second, I have a financial stake in BlackBerry (RIMM), it is the only individual stock I own. I bought my 1st stock a year ago ( Days after Thor's appointment as CEO ) while it was still on it's way down, I knew it was a big risk but, I saw Thor as bright, driven and as a man who "did things right". I have monitored the financial sites and reported misinformation to this forum, I'm not impressed with the "tech" reporters who report on Yahoo Finance (per my broker, a heavily monitored site by fund admins.). They seem to read each other and not the "tech", but they get headlines by rebranding each other.

    Third, I have been a Sprint customer for years, I think that relationship is near it's end due to their " Deal with the Devil (Apple). I had been planning on purchasing what is now called the Q10 but, the Z10 is something I'd like to try and have the opportunity to buy if I like it.

    Yes, I do believe that the carriers are the fly in the ointment. H.ll, BB 10 had Dept of Defense Approval before the carrier tests. RIM did their job and the carriers are the Prima Donna's who, in my opinion, did not get around to writing their individual " bloatware".
    bungaboy and pcguy514 like this.
    02-03-13 09:32 AM
  6. austriker's Avatar
    I don't think that idea is all that crazy. The blood sucking carriers will do all they can to control us. That being said the american carriers are notorious for taking their sweet pretty time to approve devices and load them with bloatware.

    So I think you could be right and its entirely plausible but I think its not reality
    02-03-13 09:41 AM
  7. raino's Avatar
    Sprint's LTE is band 25 in 1900mHz land (with band 20 in 800mHz coming online as iDEN is phased out). So on the outset, Sprint wouldn't be able to collude as initially it was already left out.
    Thank you. So are you saying that Sprint might not be in on this because they aren't getting the Z10, or because of some technical hurdle?

    If it's completely the latter, please explain. What makes Sprint's LTE network different, and more importantly, why wouldn't a LTE 1900 Z10 be able to get on their network in areas where the 1900 MHz LTE is deployed?

    If you're saying Sprint isn't a party not because of technical reasons but strictly because they chose to pass on the Z10, may be you are right. On one hand, Sprint could gain a customer who chooses to bring a unsubsidized Z10 to its network, but after the first two years (that's if the customer signs a 2 year contract), they'd have to work hard to keep a customer who've demonstrated the willingness and ability to buy a device off contract.
    02-03-13 10:58 AM
  8. lnichols's Avatar
    Sprint's 4G rollout has been a mess. In a couple years it will be more coherent as they phase out iDen, and completely take over the Clearwire spectrum, but right now they are deploying in PCS frequency that they also have CDMA in, and that is because of all the previous mis-steps. They are going to eventually have a solid LTE network plan and rollout, but right now they are scrambling to make a patch where all the others have a clear plan to implement right away.
    02-03-13 11:04 AM
  9. Jtaylor1986's Avatar
    Interesting. And I remember seeing a video with a BlackBerry employee saying the Paratek technology wouldn't be included for 2 years into phones. I'm guess that's because of the development cycle of a phone.
    02-03-13 11:05 AM
  10. raino's Avatar
    That being said the american carriers are notorious for taking their sweet pretty time to approve devices and load them with bloatware.
    This is true, and this is why at first I too thought it ultimately it's RIM's fault for not getting the handsets to the carriers in time for testing and an-earlier-than-March release. But then two points keep bothering me:

    1. RIM has done business with these carriers for quite a while now. They know how long the carriers "test" new handsets.
    2. If it was something in RIM's control. why would they further jeopardize their position in the US, where they're already hurting bad? RIM stands the most to lose with a late release; the carriers don't.
    austriker likes this.
    02-03-13 11:33 AM
  11. FrankPCS's Avatar
    Thank you. So are you saying that Sprint might not be in on this because they aren't getting the Z10, or because of some technical hurdle?

    If it's completely the latter, please explain. What makes Sprint's LTE network different, and more importantly, why wouldn't a LTE 1900 Z10 be able to get on their network in areas where the 1900 MHz LTE is deployed?

    If you're saying Sprint isn't a party not because of technical reasons but strictly because they chose to pass on the Z10, may be you are right. On one hand, Sprint could gain a customer who chooses to bring a unsubsidized Z10 to its network, but after the first two years (that's if the customer signs a 2 year contract), they'd have to work hard to keep a customer who've demonstrated the willingness and ability to buy a device off contract.
    The quad band LTE in your sources supports LTE bands 2, 5, 4 & 17. So even though the phone supports 1900mHz LTE, it wasn't configured to pick up Sprint's band and actually isn't even configured to pick up Verizon's band 13.

    You need to find the device that supports not only the frequency but also the correct bands for your theory to gel.
    02-03-13 11:33 AM
  12. DannyAves's Avatar
    Until now, I had been in the "RIM must have submitted their phones too late for US carriers' testing and a February release" camp, but now I'm starting to think otherwise--that it's the carriers that are to be blamed for the delay. The reason is LTE bands. Hear me out.

    LTE is the future. The Big Four (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, and T-Mobile) either have deployed their LTE networks, or are in the process of doing so. Source 1, source 2, source 3 all show that at least one variant of the Z10 is quad band LTE 700/850/1700/1900. If we are to assume that the phones have all the bands (or classes) in the frequency* (Helloo Paratek acquisition), this configuration is good enough to cover the current or planned LTE frequencies of the Big Four, and also smaller carriers with LTE networks like MetroPCS (TMO acquisition), US Cellular (Sprint acquisition), etc. So, if unlocked, any of the Big Four networks' Z10 could work on the other three's LTE networks. This is huge, and could be a deal breaker for the US carriers. And this is why I'm starting to think that the carriers (at least two--AT&T and Verizon) are having RIM produce the device to their restricted LTE specs so that there is no possibility of cross-network LTE roaming, or users taking their Z10s to another network once their contract is over/they pay the ETF and get it carrier unlocked/buy it retail and get it carrier unlocked or any other situation that is not in their best financial interests. He11, maybe this is why Sprint isn't carrying the Z10.

    This LTE band customization has happened with the iPhone 5. Both models A1428 and A1429 have the 700 MHz LTE frequencies that AT&T and Verizon use, but they have different bands (700b and 700c) that prevent inter-network operation. That is to say, an AT&T iPhone 5 cannot get LTE on the Verizon network, and vice-versa. So who's to say that the American carriers didn't wise up to RIM's efforts to make the Z10 a true world phone?

    For reference purposes, here are some LTE frequency and band listings, courtesy of Wikipedia and Anandtech:

    AT&T: 1700/2100/700 band 17
    Verizon: 700 band 13
    Sprint: 1900
    T-Mobile: 1700

    TL;DR? I'm suggesting implicit collusion. Lol.




    *I cannot stress enough how important this assumption is to my (conspiracy) theory. See the iPhone example. If all bands are not included with the frequencies, my theory is moot.
    It might not be such a crazy theory after all if you combine it with the recent restrictions about unlocking phones. That means whatever you buy has to stay on the carrier you bought it from, but I think it would hurt T-Mobile most of all since they are encouraging you to bring your own phone.
    02-03-13 11:50 AM
  13. raino's Avatar
    The quad band LTE in your sources supports LTE bands 2, 5, 4 & 17. So even though the phone supports 1900mHz LTE, it wasn't configured to pick up Sprint's band and actually isn't even configured to pick up Verizon's band 13.

    You need to find the device that supports not only the frequency but also the correct bands for your theory to gel.
    Agreed, but how do you know about which bands the device does or doesn't support? Everywhere I've looked I can only see frequency information, very little about the bands. It would be helpful if you could share a link, because I'm in search of this information myself!

    I know that the Z10 CDMA variant has Verizon-specific 700 MHz bands, and I do not think it's likely that they have other 700 MHz bands in there too. But I do not know which bands the 700/850/1700/1900 GSM variant has.
    02-03-13 11:54 AM
  14. Skeevecr's Avatar
    Agreed, but how do you know about which bands the device does or doesn't support? Everywhere I've looked I can only see frequency information, very little about the bands. It would be helpful if you could share a link, because I'm in search of this information myself!

    I know that the Z10 CDMA variant has Verizon-specific 700 MHz bands, and I do not think it's likely that they have other 700 MHz bands in there too. But I do not know which bands the 700/850/1700/1900 GSM variant has.
    The GSM variant will not have the LTE variants of the CDMA carriers as there would simply be no point as the lack of a CDMA radio would prevent it being a useful device on that network.

    One important thing to bear in mind as well you should look at the band numbers rather than purely the headline frequencies because that is all that will be supported and not a wide range of for example the 700Mhz block.
    02-03-13 05:12 PM
  15. FrankPCS's Avatar
    Agreed, but how do you know about which bands the device does or doesn't support? Everywhere I've looked I can only see frequency information, very little about the bands. It would be helpful if you could share a link, because I'm in search of this information myself!

    I know that the Z10 CDMA variant has Verizon-specific 700 MHz bands, and I do not think it's likely that they have other 700 MHz bands in there too. But I do not know which bands the 700/850/1700/1900 GSM variant has.
    Your second source straight from the BB site, under networks it lists the LTE bands and then the frequency. Is it possible to add every single band within each frequency to cover at least the US and some international carriers? Yes probably. Most likely though it's not cost effective. Apple did a pretty good job at building a phone for all...but they still pretty much have US GSM, US CDMA and the International...and they still managed to leave out LTE coverage for Australia.
    02-03-13 05:29 PM

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