[hurds]

Communities Dominate Brands: What Do We Now Know after Nokia Shareholder Meeting? - That the Future is Far Worse than we Thought (updated)

This is a pretty interesting blog and a good read but I just cut out one part of it:

SKYPE IS CAUSING LOST SALES

The second big news that came from the Shareholders' Meeting is the issue about Skype. Elop was asked by a shareholder "Nokia seems to be having a problem with the distribution channel due to Skype" asking how will Nokia deal with this problem. Elop answered "If the operator doesn't want us, it doesn't want us. We will appeal to them with other arguments. We have more to offer to them. It is a good point to start the discussion from Skype." (source HS website. Text in Finnish, translation is mine).

UPDATE May 4 - again our reader Asko who says he was personally present at that meeting, adds that Elop had explained, that Nokia, together with Microsoft, is now attempting to convince carriers/operators to accept Skype against their wills, by marketing/pricing/sales gimmicks. This admission says to me, that the carriers are truly hostile towards Nokia about the matter and this negotiation attempt is futile.

Nonetheless, Elop clearly admits that there is a reseller problem relating explicitly to Skype. He furthermore admits, the Skype issue has resulted in some carriers actually refusing to carry Lumia. I was on this blog immediately when news broke that Microsoft had bought Skype, that this would kill all Microsoft ambitions in mobile. That the carriers will simply not allow Microsoft to power Skype, to expand the already dominant Skype to the Windows 8 Desktop, and then to spread like a cancer to smartphones and poison the three wells of carrier/operator voice calls, text messages, and videocalls.

I reported on this blog that carrier boycotts were found against Microsoft. I reported on this blog that all Microsoft smartphone sales started to fall. The market share of Microsoft in mobile fell by half in six months. I reported that carriers are increasingly hostile towards Microsoft due to Skype. We have even seen TeliaSonera of Sweden (one of world's largest telcoms groups) go public in their hostility to Skype already. And we heard Microsoft's ex boss of Windows Phone admit late last year, that during 2011 the already strained carrier relations of Microsoft got far worse, because Microsoft itself angered the carrier community. Some have tried to argue that Skype already exists, or its app is available or Skype is good for consumers. These are moot points. The carriers do not hate the individual app or the consumer using Skype. They hate Skype the business for already devastating their landline cousins' business (in almost every country one of the biggest mobile operators is also the previous PTT and thus a big fixed landline operator too) and most senior staff at mobile operators today came from the fixed landline business a decade or two ago.

The carriers/operators hate Skype with a passion, as I have explained, for many reasons, but in particular they hate the unfair competition, where Skype business is deliberately unprofitable, but its investors keep pumping money into the loss-making operation, thus bleeding the carrier business with subsidised, unfair competition. THAT is why they hate Microsoft now. Because Microsoft subsidises the free calls of Skype, while Skype continues to generate a loss, but Microsoft can easily afford it, as Microsoft calculates, this will help them win on the desktop and the internet side of their business.

Now we have Elop explicitly admitting that Skype is hurting Nokia Lumia sales. He admits there is a reseller problem due to Skype. He admits that some carriers/operators have taken the extreme step of refusing to sell Lumia, only because of Skype. I have argued this point since June. People came here to ridicule me. Now Elop admits this is true. Now it stands as fact. Indisputable.

Note that some of the carriers who refused early Lumia sales did it while those early Lumia phones did not have Skype on them! This is against Microsoft, this is not against the app or phone. Now think about Windows 8. If carriers were willing to reject the whole Lumia line because of Microsoft just owning Skype, how much more will carriers hate the Windows 8 based Nokia smartphones, which will have Skype pre-installed. And when Windows 8 itself will have full Skype functionality. The future prognosis for Lumia and Nokia Microsoft smartphones is dismal. It will be far worse than today. If Nokia ends this year with 3% market share, and then Nokia rolls out Windows 8 based smartphones next year - the Nokia market share will continue to crash. It might end at 1% by mid-year 2013. Motorola died before it hit 1%. Palm died before it hit 1%. Siemens died before it hit 1%.

______________________________

The argument can be made that Android and iOs already have skype but it could be carriers may be seeing the top-line effects that this App is having and may want to restrict it on up-coming platforms (like the nirvana phone bb10!!!)

It's my opinion that skype isn't as great as a lot of people make it out to be since there are many alternatives. Playbook is so inexpensive I got an extra for my parents so we can video chat, although if I hadn't bought them oen I probably wouldn't video chat at all.

[Fmar]

Interesting. I have the Lumia 800 and use Skype for biz and personal uses. Quite simply the best mobile phone I have ever had.

Carriers have to suck it up, they should support Skype or die IMHO (or at least give their customers a choice). Apple and Android both support it, BB can but in general refuse to... Nokia do.

With regards to:

The carriers/operators hate Skype with a passion, as I have explained, for many reasons, but in particular they hate the unfair competition, where Skype business is deliberately unprofitable, but its investors keep pumping money into the loss-making operation, thus bleeding the carrier business with subsidised, unfair competition.

If your business can't financially support new protocols, business models or public changes in purchasing requirements... then tough... change your ball game or shut up shop.

Companies do not have a given right to fleece customers in every way possible... and if there is a service that offers cheaper or free alternatives to voice calling we should have every right to make use of those services. If I have known that BB/RIM had blocked or prevented use of Skype by pandering to mobile operators demands... I wouldn't have purchased my original BB's and eventually the PB.

[crackberry_geek]

Spot on... to both the original poster... and the sentiment that follows.

I believe the original post has correctly identified the real reasons for lack of BB Skype.

And, kudos to the second poster for eloquently showing why the reasons are SO WRONG.

Device manufacturers should be courting the consumer... instead of pandering to the snot nosed whining telecom executives who are simply using extortion to try and maintain their archaic business models.

What happened to innovation? If these business models of extortion had been followed in the past...we'd all still be using typewriters.

Wake up BB!

[kbz1960]

If carriers are going to be this way then I want refunds every month for the minutes and data I pay for that I don't use.

[pacoman03]

First- I thought that this is the Blackberry Playbook forum, not the Nokia forum. What does this have to do with the PB?
Second- The blogger's conclusions seem reasonable. The carriers are boycotting Windows phones because they run skype. Of course, his conclusions would seem much more reasonable if those same carriers were boycotting android phones and iphones, both of which run skype. And Blackberry phones too, they can run skype.
Third- My Playbook, and dare I say, everyone who is on this forum's PB, are wifi only. These PBs have nothing to do with the carriers, so why should the carriers hatred of skype have anything to do with the absence of skype for PB.
Fourth- Can't we go a day without somebody starting a skype related thread? Frankly, I'm getting tired of them. Face it, skype is not now and likely will not be available for the PB for the forseeable future. Big f...ing deal. Get over it, or sell your PB and get an ipad.

[crackberry_geek]

First- I thought that this is the Blackberry Playbook forum, not the Nokia forum. What does this have to do with the PB?

Pretty shallow if ya can't see the link.

Second- The blogger's conclusions seem reasonable. The carriers are boycotting Windows phones because they run skype. Of course, his conclusions would seem much more reasonable if those same carriers were boycotting android phones and iphones, both of which run skype. And Blackberry phones too, they can run skype.

Wrong - BB phones CANNOT run Skype.

Third- My Playbook, and dare I say, everyone who is on this forum's PB, are wifi only. These PBs have nothing to do with the carriers, so why should the carriers hatred of skype have anything to do with the absence of skype for PB.

Again - pretty shallow if ya can't digest the concept that it is entire BB platform that has decided NOT to allow Skype.

Fourth- Can't we go a day without somebody starting a skype related thread? Frankly, I'm getting tired of them. Face it, skype is not now and likely will not be available for the PB for the forseeable future. Big f...ing deal. Get over it, or sell your PB and get an ipad.

If ya don't wanna read Skype threads... then don't... especially when they are clearly identified as such... not your place to tell everyone else what they can or can't talk about... you do have a choice.

[pacoman03]

"Pretty shallow if ya can't see the link."
Explain the link to me. What does the carrier dislike of Skype have to do with the wifi only playbooks lack of skype. Skype isn't on the PB because skype doesn't think the numbers justify the expense of developing an app for the PB. Maybe with BB10 things will change.

"BB phones CANNOT run Skype." Skype mobile

'Again - pretty shallow if ya can't digest the concept that it is entire BB platform that has decided NOT to allow Skype.' Prove this assertion.

"not your place to tell everyone else what they can or can't talk about... you do have a choice." If it's not my place to tell anyone what to talk about, then it's not your place to tell me what I can or cannot talk about.

[DoctorNeutron]

What upsets me: I run a Torch 9850 and a PB. I am trying out the Mobile Hotspot feature of my 9850: I can turn off BT and communicate nicely with my PB via WiFi, including use of GPS active apps like CompassPro and MapApp. Further, I can communicate with my Storm 2 via WiFi and surf and read webmail. However, apps such as Garmin, Google Maps, Verizon Navigator, and Skype no workie. I have been trying to get Garmin to tell me what's up. They are hiding behind the "not on OS seven devices." The Garmin app cranks, but cannot use the Storm 2's radio to verify my account. Similar results obtain for Skype.

Microsoft does a reasonable job maintaining some semblance of version compatibility and Apple iPHONE apps work on the iPAD. What gives with RIM ? Is it RIM's fault, or is it Verizon or the app manufactures ? Doc Neutron

[rotorwrench]

If ya don't wanna read Skype threads... then don't... especially when they are clearly identified as such... not your place to tell everyone else what they can or can't talk about... you do have a choice.

crackberry_geek, you responded in the body of the quote that BB phones can't run Skype. I'm afraid you're incorrect. They do run Skype and do it well. We've been using Skype on our BB phones at work for three years, all 13 of them. I personally talk to New Zealand twice a day with Skype on my 9930 and before that my 9650. Go to their site and download the app.

[crackberry_geek]

If it's not my place to tell anyone what to talk about, then it's not your place to tell me what I can or cannot to talk about.

But mommy... it all started when he hit me back.

[louzer]

What's going on now with Nokia and the carriers is important for RIM to consider. The Nokia Phones are really good phones whose fate is in the hands of the carriers because of Skype. It is very important for RIM to maintain a good working relationship with the carriers. If BB10 is going to fail then it should do so on it's own shortcomings and not the whims of the carriers.

With a Playbook 3g/4g on the way, it would be bad to have carriers boycotting the device since it could run Skype.

The reason the carriers don't say anything about iPhone and Android phones running Skype is because Skype is not bundled in the delivered OS like it is with Windows Phone OS.

If Skype and RIM ever come to an agreement about providing a Skype app for BB10, it would probably end up being selectively blocked by some carriers (like the bridge is for AT&T).

[crackberry_geek]

crackberry_geek, you responded in the body of the quote that BB phones can't run Skype. You need to research a little more before making statements like that. They do run Skype and do it well. We've been using Skype on our BB phones at work for three years, all 13 of them. I personally talk to New Zealand twice a day with Skype on my 9930 and before that my 9650. Go to their site and download the app.

Yup... you are right. While I do observe such forums almost daily for months, this is something new I learned today. Thanks.

[pacoman03]

OK. Your apology is accepted.

[louzer]

crackberry_geek, you responded in the body of the quote that BB phones can't run Skype. You need to research a little more before making statements like that. They do run Skype and do it well. We've been using Skype on our BB phones at work for three years, all 13 of them. I personally talk to New Zealand twice a day with Skype on my 9930 and before that my 9650. Go to their site and download the app.

Only BBs on Verizon can use this. AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile customers can't.

[Laura Knotek]

I do not buy the excuse that Skype is to blame for poor Nokia sales. iOS and Android run Skype, and those devices sell just fine.

The folks at wpcentral do not buy that excuse either. http://www.windowscentral.com/nokia-...ll-shenanigans

[rotorwrench]

Yup... you are right. While I do observe such forums almost daily for months, this is something new I learned today. Thanks.

LOL, hey, I've done it myself. I'm still learning things my phone or PB do from these forums. Been there done that

[TheScionicMan]

Device manufacturers should be courting the consumer... instead of pandering to the snot nosed whining telecom executives who are simply using extortion to try and maintain their archaic business models.

If you take the carriers out of the equation, your directly-bought phone will be mostly useless. It's like saying that tv channels should sell to consumers directly and forget about the cable and satellite companies that actually provide the conduit for it to get to you. What one might call extortion, another might see it as a cost of doing business for providing us with pretty amazing coverage and speed.

I think this carrier model issue is one of the reasons that RIM can't really push Bridge as a major selling point. IMO, someday we'll move to an all-data style wireless model where you'll use VOIP for calls and there won't be a xxx Minutes part of a bill, but when we get there, we won't be paying the same cheap data costs we have now.

[rotorwrench]

Only BBs on Verizon can use this. AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile customers can't.

I know, but the response was in regard to the BB phones being able to use Skype at all. BB phones support Skype. As the original post and article referred to, it's a carrier issue, of which you have just verified.

[drummer_god]

What happened to innovation? If these business models of extortion had been followed in the past...we'd all still be using typewriters

you can't be this naive.
it's the reason we all still use gas in our cars.

[Yankee495]

If carriers are going to be this way then I want refunds every month for the minutes and data I pay for that I don't use.

Me too! I never use very much and have to pay every month. I have plenty left over.

A bit off, but I have been a Hulu subscriber for two years. I watch it very little. They block my PB? I am a paying customer, had it for two years and have not watched 20 hours. That would be 40 half hour shows. We have not watched that much.

I keep it for my wife. When she misses certain shows.

AT&T. TV ads used to say "watch video and bla bla bla with our DSL"

Now they have a per month cap. So if I watch a lot of video I have to pay more?

They'd all juice their shorts if we all just turned 'em all off.

I know some people can't because of business. I could, many people could. I bet it would not be a month before you got an "envelope" in the mail begging you to take their new revised services.

It would take a major number of people. The stock holder meeting would be knee deep with that juice.

[Branta]

First- I thought that this is the Blackberry Playbook forum, not the Nokia forum. What does this have to do with the PB?

Good question - moving to General Discussion where it will get a wider debate. This topic is more than any specific platform, carrier obstruction will impact everyone.

I suspect the actual Skype usage on iOS and Android has been very limited, and it was - effectively - an add-on to an existing range of phones. The carriers couldn't do much about it and to be honest they didn't really care because it was only marginally useful on the older networks. Now along comes Microsoft, the 800-pound gorilla offering a serious threat to the dominance of other products, the cash reserves to out-market any of the networks from petty cash, and the prospect that Skype could become widely used with the expansion of faster networks. That raises two very unpleasant possibilities for the carriers;
1. Loss of voice revenue - particularly the highly profitable international calls and roaming market.
2. Huge potential for impact on bandwidth and overall network capacity. The new phones are starting to appear with usable video calling capability and that is going to hurt the network.

Suddenly the expansion into LTE and 4G seems to be too little, too late unless they can restrict the threat. This is likely to impact the US carriers more than worldwide with the greater relativepurchasing power of the US market, and the constraints of faux-4G networks which would only be described as 3G+ anywhere else in the world.

[addicted44]

There is a HUGE difference blackberry's Playbook having a Skype app (especially since the Playbook has nothing to do with networks since it is WiFi only) and Microsoft, whose OS is running on Nokia phones, owning Skype for 8bn.

[Branta]

Exactly! That's why it got moved. This is much bigger than the current non-cellular PB device and all the spoiled-brat whining that goes on because MS won't allow a Skype app.

Read the original post again, the threat is more about network dominance and what YOU are allowed to use on YOUR device.

[iN8ter]

With regards to:



If your business can't financially support new protocols, business models or public changes in purchasing requirements... then tough... change your ball game or shut up shop.

Companies do not have a given right to fleece customers in every way possible... and if there is a service that offers cheaper or free alternatives to voice calling we should have every right to make use of those services. If I have known that BB/RIM had blocked or prevented use of Skype by pandering to mobile operators demands... I wouldn't have purchased my original BB's and eventually the PB.

They are changing the ballgame. They're doing it by capping data plans (Tiered Plans) and raising prices for data plans. In the end you (the consumer) lose becuase while you're lowering your Call/SMS package to the lowest tier you're forced to raise your data plans to higher tier (or pay overages, face ridiculous throttling) since these "competitors" are all accomplishing their "magic" by bandwagoning the carrier's data network.

That way of "competing" is shady at best and the carriers will always win because they control the data pipes. We live in a data-based society now. You will pay the higher prices for data, unless you want to go back to using a flip or feature phone.

That, or they will use the Verizon method of supporting Skype.

[iN8ter]

Spot on... to both the original poster... and the sentiment that follows.

I believe the original post has correctly identified the real reasons for lack of BB Skype.

And, kudos to the second poster for eloquently showing why the reasons are SO WRONG.

Device manufacturers should be courting the consumer... instead of pandering to the snot nosed whining telecom executives who are simply using extortion to try and maintain their archaic business models.

What happened to innovation? If these business models of extortion had been followed in the past...we'd all still be using typewriters.

Wake up BB!

Maybe you should learn how the business works, and ask Nokia what life was like in the US when carriers refused to subsidize their phones.

Tip: There was no life for them in the US.