[ubizmo]

Much as I'll grant you that the Hub is very nice, How many Average Joes would pay an extra $x00 for an Android phone with a (subjectively) nicer UI?

Not many. I think the market for the BlackBerry Android would be more of an upscale one: People who are looking for a premium brand within the Android sphere. I think the BlackBerry Android, to start out anyway, would have to be flagship level, priced like other Android flagships. If they can get any traction there, they could eventually start to think about launching some mid-range "Curve" Androids. The Passport was priced comparably to the S5 and similar flagship Android phones, so they can do it if they set their mind to it.

[LuvULongTime]

No compulsion of Devs was necessary to achieve that, the Devs must have decided that the future ROI made sense. Tho' I'm sure some money might have changed hands too.

Yes and no. I am still hearing many a complaint from WinPhone users that the native apps in their stores do not get updated with the same frequency (or at all) that their Android and iOS counterparts do. I've also head complaints that WinPhone apps are also missing functionality that the iOS and Android apps have. So just looking at the app catalog number, while growing, does not tell the whole story. And we also have cases where devs like BOA are pulling support. I am not as bullish on the WinPhone app situation as you. For the sake of competition I hope it does gain traction though.

[LuvULongTime]

Great discussion. I love hearing folks banter constructively.

I tend to think the Runtime is a myopic albatross at this point. Hindsight is great, but (considering I believe ecosystem is BBRY's biggest issue) I think it puts BBRY in a permanently reactive state that is difficult to lead from.

If "at this point" equaled 10+% market share, and devs were still not willing to write native apps and were happy enough with running android on BB10, I would agree with you that it is an albatross. But right now, all the RT can do is help. There are many die hards even on this forum that would not be using BB10 without certain key apps available via android. I am definitely one of them.

[LuvULongTime]

Much as I'll grant you that the Hub is very nice, How many Average Joes would pay an extra $x00 for an Android phone with a (subjectively) nicer UI?

In the USA, I would say there would be people willing to pay. Samsung phones are not cheap and sell quite well. Outside of the USA, it would be much tougher.

[kellyjdrummer]

Cyanogen Inc. Is a joke.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

Microsoft is no less of a joke.

[ubizmo]

Yes and no. I am still hearing many a complaint from WinPhone users that the native apps in their stores do not get updated with the same frequency (or at all) that their Android and iOS counterparts do. I've also head complaints that WinPhone apps are also missing functionality that the iOS and Android apps have.

Yes, that's true. In some respects it's like the Amazon app store, in comparison to Google Play. Many WP apps are like the 1.0 version of their iOS and Android counterparts.

I'm a little more bullish on the future of WP though, because of the synergy that will come from Windows 10. If the WP platform gets the bump I think it'll get, we may see WP apps getting dusted off and updated.

[DenverRalphy]

Yes and no. I am still hearing many a complaint from WinPhone users that the native apps in their stores do not get updated with the same frequency (or at all) that their Android and iOS counterparts do. I've also head complaints that WinPhone apps are also missing functionality that the iOS and Android apps have. So just looking at the app catalog number, while growing, does not tell the whole story. And we also have cases where devs like BOA are pulling support. I am not as bullish on the WinPhone app situation as you. For the sake of competition I hope it does gain traction though.

That's been my experience with Windows devices. The Windows apps I install rarely come close to being anywhere as good as the same app on the Android/iOS tablets within my family/household. Not to mention that it's discouraging when you shop for Windows apps in their store, and see that many of them haven't been updated in over a year. And the occasional times that I see an app finally publish that I've been hoping would finally arrive, usually end up with me shaking my head in dismay when I see the actual functionality (or lack thereof). It's a real shame too; because if there's one good thing I could say about Windows 8.x (I haven't played with 10 yet), the design really is my favorite for tablet use.

[JeepBB]

Yes and no. I am still hearing many a complaint from WinPhone users that the native apps in their stores do not get updated with the same frequency (or at all) that their Android and iOS counterparts do. I've also head complaints that WinPhone apps are also missing functionality that the iOS and Android apps have. So just looking at the app catalog number, while growing, does not tell the whole story. And we also have cases where devs like BOA are pulling support. I am not as bullish on the WinPhone app situation as you. For the sake of competition I hope it does gain traction though.

Yes, I think that's fair criticism.

WinPhone's appstore doesn't seem to update as frequently as I'd like, and the "common across platform" Apps often aren't as feature rich as the same App on Android/iOS.

Though, it is getting better.

I rarely take my phone off the charging plate these days without seeing an "x Apps Updated" notification that has happened in background overnight. For example, Spotify was updated only a few days back and looks the same as the iOS version a friend uses and seems to have the same range of features.

There is also a very definite North American vs European divide. My own experience here in the UK is that I see ever more WinPhones in the wild, and that anecdotal evidence is supported by the marketshare figures. The UK/Euro figures are some 3 to 4 times greater than the NA figures. I do sometimes wonder why that difference might be... but this probably isn't the place to seek answers.

I think WinPhone is in a better place than BB10 right now, but Microsoft is far from out of the woods. How WinPhone10 is received will be the decider I reckon, and an analogue of this same thread could be appearing on the Windows Central forum this time next year! LOL

[Ment]

Shot across the bow. Google can make it hard for Cyanogen if it wants to.

Chrome for Android builds will be dependent on the Google Play Services library

Not saying Google did it for this reason but two birds with one stone etc.

Side affect it borks Chrome for the BB runtime.

[birdman_38]

Not many. I think the market for the BlackBerry Android would be more of an upscale one: People who are looking for a premium brand within the Android sphere. I think the BlackBerry Android, to start out anyway, would have to be flagship level, priced like other Android flagships. If they can get any traction there, they could eventually start to think about launching some mid-range "Curve" Androids. The Passport was priced comparably to the S5 and similar flagship Android phones, so they can do it if they set their mind to it.

If Sony can't can't compete with an excellent product against Apple and Samsung while HTC barely can, what makes you think BlackBerry could?

A BlackBerry Android lineup would be designed for enterprise.

[ADGrant]

Yes, I think that's fair criticism.

WinPhone's appstore doesn't seem to update as frequently as I'd like, and the "common across platform" Apps often aren't as feature rich as the same App on Android/iOS.

Though, it is getting better.

I rarely take my phone off the charging plate these days without seeing an "x Apps Updated" notification that has happened in background overnight. For example, Spotify was updated only a few days back and looks the same as the iOS version a friend uses and seems to have the same range of features.

There is also a very definite North American vs European divide. My own experience here in the UK is that I see ever more WinPhones in the wild, and that anecdotal evidence is supported by the marketshare figures. The UK/Euro figures are some 3 to 4 times greater than the NA figures. I do sometimes wonder why that difference might be... but this probably isn't the place to seek answers.

I think WinPhone is in a better place than BB10 right now, but Microsoft is far from out of the woods. How WinPhone10 is received will be the decider I reckon, and an analogue of this same thread could be appearing on the Windows Central forum this time next year! LOL

The reason for the difference in sales between NA and Europe is due to Nokia's lack of US market presence.

[JeepBB]

The reason for the difference in sales between NA and Europe is due to Nokia's lack of US market presence.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

I think I read that Nokia Lumias amounted to near 90% of all Windows Phone sales. So it would follow that WinPhone's marketshare would tend to be higher in Nokia's home turf.

Thanks.

[Soulstream]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

I think I read that Nokia Lumias amounted to near 90% of all Windows Phone sales. So it would follow that WinPhone's marketshare would tend to be higher in Nokia's home turf.

Thanks.

Yes, Nokia was quite a large brand in Europe before the iPhone was introduced. It was the brand to have back in the day. Missing the smartphone train really hurt them and now Europe is mostly Android (and from my observations, mainly Samsung).

[MarsupilamiX]

Shot across the bow. Google can make it hard for Cyanogen if it wants to.

Chrome for Android builds will be dependent on the Google Play Services library

Not saying Google did it for this reason but two birds with one stone etc.

Side affect it borks Chrome for the BB runtime.

Why anybody would use Chrome over Firefox is beyond me anyhow.

Oh well... It also highlights BlackBerries problem that they need Google to play nice with them, if they want to keep the Android Runtime functional.

Personally I am also bullish on MS because of the Synergy effects and because they actually have a low cost strategy (where most of the smartphone growth happens).

And even if WP10 flops... They'll be back with Windows Quantum Phone 1.

Regarding the runtime...
In a perfect world, we should have never seen that abomination of a band aid. I am no fan of it and I am personally of the opinion that the Runtime killed native app development, before it even started.
The apps are necessary though.
In hindsight, BlackBerry should have killed BBOS right after the Storm, should have adapted Android for consumers, tbh.

Yes, Nokia was quite a large brand in Europe before the iPhone was introduced. It was the brand to have back in the day. Missing the smartphone train really hurt them and now Europe is mostly Android (and from my observations, mainly Samsung).

Well Android is far closer to Nokia S60 than any other OS, in its essence.
Since half of Europe used Nokia phones back in the day, the transition to Android actually makes sense.

It should be of note that Nokia was still the biggest cell phone manufacturer (not smartphone) in the world throughout 2012 (and even 2013 IIRC).
That's a giant there, who always played at least one league above BlackBerry. At least internationally.

If Sony can't can't compete with an excellent product against Apple and Samsung while HTC barely can, what makes you think BlackBerry could?

A BlackBerry Android lineup would be designed for enterprise.

The Sony devices are nice, but overall Sony is a mess.
It should also be of note that all of the struggling manufacturer are mostly to blame themselves.

They all ignored low-cost markets in their endless ignorance/arrogance and now face the problem that the local Android competition makes Sony Z3s for half of the price.
Those manufacturers, just like BlackBerry failed to understand the market and to shift their operations into countries with real growth opportunities.
So if they think that they can compete with manufacturers who basically make the same phone for half the price.... I am interested to see what happens.

[birdman_38]

So if they think that they can compete with manufacturers who basically make the same phone for half the price.... I am interested to see what happens.

But it's not only about pricing...it's about marketing. Even though the iPhone 6 is a lower specced phone at a higher price point than the Galaxy S5, it outsells them by about a 2:1 ratio. Because Apple manufactures the public appetite with superior marketing. Whoever spends the most makes the most.

That's why BlackBerry hasn't released an all-touch "superphone" for consumers. This community would love it, but overall it would fall flat on its face without proper marketing support.

[ADGrant]

But it's not only about pricing...it's about marketing. Even though the iPhone 6 is a lower specced phone at a higher price point than the Galaxy S5, it outsells them by about a 2:1 ratio. Because Apple manufactures the public appetite with superior marketing. Whoever spends the most makes the most.

That's why BlackBerry hasn't released an all-touch "superphone" for consumers. This community would love it, but overall it would fall flat on its face without proper marketing support.

In what ways is the iPhone 6 lower speced than the S5? Not in the CPU or the build quality.

[birdman_38]

In what ways is the iPhone 6 lower specced than the S5? Not in the CPU or the build quality.

Camera, battery life, screen sharpness. Even the Passport is higher specced in some respects.

[ccbs]

Camera, battery life, screen sharpness. Even the Passport is higher specced in some respects.

In term of the key component SOC spec (the one that pretty much defines the phone speed) is a generation ahead in term of CPU and GPU speed. A8 is a lot faster than the Quad A57 in the coming Qualcomm 810 chip, let alone the Krait 400 based 801 in the S5 or Passport. Memory bandwidth and latency are also more better in the A8 than the 810.
So, in term of SOC, the coming Galaxy S6 will still be slower.

[birdman_38]

So, in terms of SOC, the coming Galaxy S6 will still be slower.

Right. Only us phone geeks know that. 3/4 of consumers don't know and don't care.

[ADGrant]

Right. Only us phone geeks know that. 3/4 of consumers don't know and don't care.

and how many will notice any difference I'm screen sharpness. I am fairly sure the performance advantages of the A8 and iOS would be readily noticeable.

[birdman_38]

I am fairly sure the performance advantages of the A8 and iOS would be readily noticeable.

Again, 3 of 4 consumers just don't care about that stuff.

[ADGrant]

Again, 3 of 4 consumers just don't care about that stuff.

I am not sure about that given Apple's sales numbers.

Based on BB sales numbers 99 out of a 100 consumers don't care about BB10. Should no one bother to mention the advantages they feel it offers over the competition?

[tchocky77]

Again, 3 of 4 consumers just don't care about that stuff.

That's true,...but those same 3 out of 4 probably own an iPhone anyway.

Here in NA anyway.

I'm always smile a little when I see the iPhone referred to as "under-specced."
Apple's implementation of the 64-bit ARM architecture and the way iOS is tuned specifically for it, puts them a generation ahead of any other manufacturer. That's the advantage of engineering the ENTIRE package in-house. Hardware and the software stack that runs on it.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Apple, from a CompSci perspective, their execution is pretty objectively superior.

[birdman_38]

That's true,...but those same 3 out of 4 probably own an iPhone anyway.

Here in NA anyway.

I'm always smile a little when I see the iPhone referred to as "under-specced."
Apple's implementation of the 64-bit ARM architecture and the way iOS is tuned specifically for it, puts them a generation ahead of any other manufacturer. That's the advantage of engineering the ENTIRE package in-house. Hardware and the software stack that runs on it.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Apple, from a CompSci perspective, their execution is pretty objectively superior.

It is. Maybe "underspecced" is not the right word (heck, it's not even a word) but the point is Apple products come at a premium price. Specs are one of the lowest priorities for the general consumer right now. Nobody but mobile geeks compare the chipsets, benchmarks, etc.

Apple spends a boatload of money to create demand for their products. It has a ripple effect into the ecosystem. That's the formula to their success.