05-26-21 09:46 AM
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  1. app_Developer's Avatar
    But they still have their downsides.
    I agree in cars that you do need a combination of some buttons where it makes sense. But I think those are few.

    BTW, the data clearly shows that distraction with these new screens is not an issue in practice, and in fact drivers are more attentive and more informed when the interface is adaptive. Even brands like Porsche that were solidly in favor of real buttons in the 2 generations ago designs (e.g. 970/991/981) have looked at the actual data and have moved now to glass in the current and next gen designs.

    But to bring this back to the point of this thread, I was agreeing with DDD that a company that wants to make something other than a slab has *two* problems:

    (a) find a niche big enough to make the whole effort worthwhile and
    (b) manage a much higher overall cost for their bespoke hardware, which exacerbates problem (a).

    Nobody has figured out how to do this yet. And until someone does, we will continue to see the default equation of "glass + commodity SoC + commodity OS + battery + multiple cameras = a chance"*

    * unless you're Apple, in which case, congratulations you have a luxury brand and a business model that escapes the need for commodity SoC or OS.
    04-15-21 12:06 PM
  2. the_boon's Avatar
    I agree in cars that you do need a combination of some buttons where it makes sense. But I think those are few.

    BTW, the data clearly shows that distraction with these new screens is not an issue in practice, and in fact drivers are more attentive and more informed when the interface is adaptive. Even brands like Porsche that were solidly in favor of real buttons in the 2 generations ago designs (e.g. 970/991/981) have looked at the actual data and have moved now to glass in the current and next gen designs.

    But to bring this back to the point of this thread, I was agreeing with DDD that a company that wants to make something other than a slab has *two* problems:

    (a) find a niche big enough to make the whole effort worthwhile and
    (b) manage a much higher overall cost for their bespoke hardware, which exacerbates problem (a).

    Nobody has figured out how to do this yet. And until someone does, we will continue to see the default equation of "glass + commodity SoC + commodity OS + battery + multiple cameras = a chance"*

    * unless you're Apple, in which case, congratulations you have a luxury brand and a business model that escapes the need for commodity SoC or OS.
    Doesn't mean glass is any safer than buttons, I don't see how it could be. Though a healthy mix of both is probably best.

    I'd also say the same for smartphones. I appreciate the combination of glass and the tactile keyboard on my KEY2.
    bh7171 likes this.
    04-15-21 04:44 PM
  3. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    Or more options.... even just in slabs. Like both Apple and Samsung, but I don't really want them to dominate the US market. But at least there are two.
    It's sad. Here in South Africa we have also seen a dramatic decrease in competition, with Samsung taking up 46% market share followed by Huawei with 29% and Apple with 16%,thats 91% of the market while the other guys fight for the remaining 9%.

    I am hoping Huawei maintains their 2nd place as it will force more developers and companies to support HMS and at least allow a 3rd ecosystem to exist, although OPPO and Xiaomi are circling above and they seem to be after Huawei in a big way, but us South Africans take a long time to change, it took years for Huawei to build their brand and gain trust here so I get the feeling Xiaomi and OPPO are in for a long fight and by 2-3 years from now HMS may be very well established.

    LG was dying down here, Sony pulled out about year or so ago, HMD Nokia are around but nobody really cares for the Nokia brand anymore here yet many of us grew up with it lol.
    04-15-21 05:39 PM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    Doesn't mean glass is any safer than buttons, I don't see how it could be. Though a healthy mix of both is probably best.

    I'd also say the same for smartphones. I appreciate the combination of glass and the tactile keyboard on my KEY2.
    Again, actual data from actual users of actual cars shows stronger driver attentiveness (panel testing). That is a safety improvement. It’s the most important stat we track in any interface change we ever make.

    Accident outcomes in aggregate are the other thing we track but those are all so low from covid that this data is not currently useful.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    04-15-21 05:43 PM
  5. conite's Avatar
    It's sad. Here in South Africa we have also seen a dramatic decrease in competition, with Samsung taking up 46% market share followed by Huawei with 29% and Apple with 16%,thats 91% of the market while the other guys fight for the remaining 9%.

    I am hoping Huawei maintains their 2nd place as it will force more developers and companies to support HMS and at least allow a 3rd ecosystem to exist, although OPPO and Xiaomi are circling above and they seem to be after Huawei in a big way, but us South Africans take a long time to change, it took years for Huawei to build their brand and gain trust here so I get the feeling Xiaomi and OPPO are in for a long fight and by 2-3 years from now HMS may be very well established.

    LG was dying down here, Sony pulled out about year or so ago, HMD Nokia are around but nobody really cares for the Nokia brand anymore here yet many of us grew up with it lol.
    BBK (Oppo, Vivo, OnePlus, Realme) is the second biggest phone maker in the world now, right behind Samsung. Then come Apple, Xiaomi, and Huawei. 2020.

    I think Xiaomi and BBK will pick up some of what Huawei is leaving behind, for those that don't care much about security.
    Last edited by conite; 04-15-21 at 06:01 PM.
    04-15-21 05:45 PM
  6. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    BBK (Oppo, Vivo, OnePlus, Realme) is the second biggest phone maker in the world now, right behind Samsung. Then come Apple, Xiaomi, and Huawei. 2020.

    I think Xiaomi and BBK will pick up some of what Huawei is leaving behind, for those that don't care much about security.
    Yeah I see BBK are creeping into South Africa, OPPO made a splash recently and Vivo as well, OnePlus is also trying to make some in-roads. Hilarious how they move like they are different brands but they are just reusing and rebranding parts in various ways.
    04-16-21 12:46 AM
  7. cribble2k's Avatar
    Can't say I'm "sad" about this.

    My first (and only) LG device was the LG G4, which suffered from the dreaded "bootloop" issue after only 6 months.

    For those unaware, this was caused by a hardware defect with the motherboard. Reloading the OS wouldn't fix it either.

    Not to mention, LG's OS updates were non-existent.
    04-16-21 06:16 AM
  8. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    It's sad. Here in South Africa we have also seen a dramatic decrease in competition, with Samsung taking up 46% market share followed by Huawei with 29% and Apple with 16%,thats 91% of the market while the other guys fight for the remaining 9%.

    I am hoping Huawei maintains their 2nd place as it will force more developers and companies to support HMS and at least allow a 3rd ecosystem to exist, although OPPO and Xiaomi are circling above and they seem to be after Huawei in a big way, but us South Africans take a long time to change, it took years for Huawei to build their brand and gain trust here so I get the feeling Xiaomi and OPPO are in for a long fight and by 2-3 years from now HMS may be very well established.

    LG was dying down here, Sony pulled out about year or so ago, HMD Nokia are around but nobody really cares for the Nokia brand anymore here yet many of us grew up with it lol.
    You can't force developers to do anything....

    And it's pretty clear that Huawei strategy is to make it so they don't really have to support HMS.... as so far it's basically Android. But it's clear that strategy isn't working....

    Sadly I think the only companies making money in smartphones are Apple, Apple and Apple.... followed by a good margin by Samsung, BBK and Xiaomi. At this point it's becoming more and more about volume for the Android players.
    04-16-21 07:31 AM
  9. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    You can't force developers to do anything....

    And it's pretty clear that Huawei strategy is to make it so they don't really have to support HMS.... as so far it's basically Android. But it's clear that strategy isn't working....

    Sadly I think the only companies making money in smartphones are Apple, Apple and Apple.... followed by a good margin by Samsung, BBK and Xiaomi. At this point it's becoming more and more about volume for the Android players.
    I wouldn’t be so sure about this, with the USA continuing to try push away Chinese manufacturers and blacklisting them, Huawei has made HMS available for its fellow Chinese manufacturers and it seems one of them is interested:

    https://www.gizguide.com/2021/03/mei...-core.html?m=1

    If the USA continue to push away some of these Chinese OEMs who have now become established in many parts of the world, most countries will begin adapting to HMS at a faster rate.

    Using the Mate 40 Pro right now alongside my iPhone and every single Bank, Insurer, some of the ride apps and most takeaway outlets here in South Africa now have their apps in AppGallery and it seems to be a similar thing in the Middle East, parts of Europe and Pacific regions, certainly better support than I had seen on Windows Phone or BB where many of the local companies simply ignored them. Microsoft also seem interested in getting in on the Huawei action.

    I think within the next 24 months we may see a major shift if Huawei continue their localized targeting, I had originally had the P40 Pro and App Gallery was not looking too amazing early last year but more and more I am seeing a lot of adoption going on from a number of large service providers to.
    04-16-21 05:16 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    Can't imagine anyone outside of China being caught dead using HMS.
    04-16-21 05:18 PM
  11. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    Can't imagine anyone outside of China being caught dead using HMS.
    There are a lot of them here in South Africa, lol. Huawei continued to hold strong in second place after Samsung.

    I see even some of our larger retailers like Woolworths and Clicks have their apps in AppGallery actually, not sure if they even bothered to do apps for WP or BB.
    04-16-21 05:22 PM
  12. pdr733's Avatar
    There are a lot of them here in South Africa, lol. Huawei continued to hold strong in second place after Samsung.


    I see even some of our larger retailers like Woolworths and Clicks have their apps in AppGallery actually, not sure if they even bothered to do apps for WP or BB.
    Sadly, I can confirm that in one hand both 3 carriers in my country continue to sell Huawei (mostly p40, p40 lite and some low end maybe the latter are still older models with GMS), and on the other hand some smaller banks, etc started publishing their apps in the Huawei store.
    Right now Xiaomi and not Huawei is the best selling Chinese here.
    Smaller EU country for that matter.
    04-16-21 05:32 PM
  13. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    Sadly, I can confirm that in one hand both 3 carriers in my country continue to sell Huawei (mostly p40, p40 lite and some low end maybe the latter are still older models with GMS), and on the other hand some smaller banks, etc started publishing their apps in the Huawei store.
    Right now Xiaomi and not Huawei is the best selling Chinese here.
    Smaller EU country for that matter.
    Yep, it’s a very intriguing situation for Huawei. If the USA continue their aggressive treatment of the Chinese OEMs I think many of them will turn to Huawei for a solution.

    It does vary from country to country, for us Xiaomi is barely even on the map here, HMD Nokia is a bigger seller than Xiaomi, OPPO and Vivo here, that could change in a few years.
    04-16-21 05:41 PM
  14. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Huawei never was much of an option in the US, it's not US sales that have tanked Huawei, it's sales in Europe, Africa and rest of Asia that have plummeted, and continues too. Fourth quarter of last year saw their sale drop again, down to only about 30 million units.... 24 million of which were sold in China where Google is already blocked. They are projecting only moving 70 million for all of 2021... It's pretty clear that users want a full ecosystem.

    Huawei sold off the Honor brand last year, and there are reports they are looking at divesting their Mate and P Brands. I'm sure a few manufactures will give Huawei so lip service to support HarmonyOS. But in the end it doesn't matter unless consumers will accept it.

    Doesn't matter who you are, you can't keep going on and not turning a profit in a division. LG faced that and are moving on. Other will follow... Sony, Nokia, TCL, Huawei, Moto/Lenovo....
    04-19-21 07:18 AM
  15. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    Huawei never was much of an option in the US, it's not US sales that have tanked Huawei, it's sales in Europe, Africa and rest of Asia that have plummeted, and continues too. Fourth quarter of last year saw their sale drop again, down to only about 30 million units.... 24 million of which were sold in China where Google is already blocked. They are projecting only moving 70 million for all of 2021... It's pretty clear that users want a full ecosystem.

    Huawei sold off the Honor brand last year, and there are reports they are looking at divesting their Mate and P Brands. I'm sure a few manufactures will give Huawei so lip service to support HarmonyOS. But in the end it doesn't matter unless consumers will accept it.

    Doesn't matter who you are, you can't keep going on and not turning a profit in a division. LG faced that and are moving on. Other will follow... Sony, Nokia, TCL, Huawei, Moto/Lenovo....
    It would be a very sad day when/if they leave mobile. Not quite sure where the Honor brand was focused, we never saw it here in South Africa we only know Huawei as Huawei, it seems the Honor brand served certain gaps in certain regions, makes sense that it was the first to go as it never seemed to truly take off.

    I feel like BBK are doing something similar between Vivo, OPPO and OnePlus, whichever one makes it big will begin to get all the investment.
    04-19-21 02:36 PM
  16. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    It would be a very sad day when/if they leave mobile. Not quite sure where the Honor brand was focused, we never saw it here in South Africa we only know Huawei as Huawei, it seems the Honor brand served certain gaps in certain regions, makes sense that it was the first to go as it never seemed to truly take off.

    I feel like BBKare doing something similar between Vivo, OPPO and OnePlus, whichever one makes it big will begin to get all the investment.
    I think Honor was big in China and India. But Huawei got a double whammy with their being blocked from full Android and the tension between India and China last year.

    But it being a consortium of Chinese distributors and the Shenzhen government... might only be some letterhead being changed.

    We all knew this market consolidation was coming... actually surprising how many have hung in there, even as they were losing money. Huawei isn't one of those, their issues are they picked a fight they should have... Moto/Lenovo, TCL and OnePlus seem to be able to get along with the "powers to be" in the US.
    ppeters914 likes this.
    04-19-21 02:46 PM
  17. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    I think Honor was big in China and India. But Huawei got a double whammy with their being blocked from full Android and the tension between India and China last year.

    But it being a consortium of Chinese distributors and the Shenzhen government... might only be some letterhead being changed.

    We all knew this market consolidation was coming... actually surprising how many have hung in there, even as they were losing money. Huawei isn't one of those, their issues are they picked a fight they should have... Moto/Lenovo, TCL and OnePlus seem to be able to get along with the "powers to be" in the US.
    Yeah similar situation to ZTE who were banned and then the ban was lifted some time in 2018 I believe.

    Will be interesting to see how this plays out, ZTE seem to still be rebuilding since the lift.
    04-19-21 02:56 PM
  18. brookie229's Avatar
    I think Honor was big in China and India. But Huawei got a double whammy with their being blocked from full Android and the tension between India and China last year.

    But it being a consortium of Chinese distributors and the Shenzhen government... might only be some letterhead being changed.

    We all knew this market consolidation was coming... actually surprising how many have hung in there, even as they were losing money. Huawei isn't one of those, their issues are they picked a fight they should have... Moto/Lenovo, TCL and OnePlus seem to be able to get along with the "powers to be" in the US.
    Actually the Honor brand was probably just as big or bigger than Huawei in the USA a few years back. My wife picked up an Honor 8 specifically made for the North American market from a store (can't remember which one - maybe Best Buy?) across our border. The thing still works fine and received 3 android versions with updates ending last December.
    04-19-21 06:20 PM
  19. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    So BBK is basically #2 going by this
    Unfortunately Huawei has dropped ou the Top 5,going to still be a tough time for them as they build HMS.

    Report: Huawei falls out of the top five as everyone else grows in Q1 2021
    https://www.androidauthority.com/q1-...eport-1218555/

    I'm always impressed by Apples resilience against all of the incoming Chinese brands, but I guess this is due to Apple having a grip on the premium side of things.

    Xiaomi, OPPO and Vivos climb up should be especially cause for concern for Samsung, all 3 of them are very aggressive at Samsungs key target market with the Galaxy A series. I think if Xiaomi continues to power through the US trying to do to it what it did to Huawei, Xiaomi may hit #1 by end of next year, if not earlier, OPPO will be one to watch though to. This reminds me of the days Europe and USA owned this industry where you had Nokia, Siemens, Motorola and Sony Ericsson dueling it out with Samsung and LG creeping up.
    Last edited by Tsepz_GP; 04-20-21 at 07:59 AM.
    04-20-21 07:49 AM
  20. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    So BBK is basically #2 going by this
    Unfortunately Huawei has dropped ou the Top 5,going to still be a tough time for them as they build HMS.

    Report: Huawei falls out of the top five as everyone else grows in Q1 2021
    https://www.androidauthority.com/q1-...eport-1218555/

    I'm always impressed by Apples resilience against all of the incoming Chinese brands, but I guess this is due to Apple having a grip on the premium side of things.

    Xiaomi, OPPO and Vivos climb up should be especially cause for concern for Samsung, all 3 of them are very aggressive at Samsungs key target market with the Galaxy A series. I think if Xiaomi continues to power through the US trying to do to it what it did to Huawei, Xiaomi may hit #1 by end of next year, if not earlier, OPPO will be one to watch though to. This reminds me of the days Europe and USA owned this industry where you had Nokia, Siemens, Motorola and Sony Ericsson dueling it out with Samsung and LG creeping up.
    Apple I get.... they control hardware and software and do both very well.

    It's Samsung's ability to compete against BBK and Xiaomi that is very impressive.
    05-06-21 01:15 PM
  21. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    I think we are only at the beginning of all this, now that Huawei is loving out the picture BBK is finding in roads, when Huawei was banned they had just managed to begin dethroning Samsung, but now you have BBK coming in with multiple brands at multiple price points, their strategy seems even more aggressive than Huaweis.

    Will be interesting to see if Samsung can hold them off, I think where Samsung still have a grip is in the Android premium space, I know locally none of the BBK brands are selling their top shelf stuff down here, they still seem a little bit cautious about their top of the line smartphones.
    05-06-21 02:13 PM
  22. slagman5's Avatar
    Fewer and fewer choices. Less and less innovation to come due to lack of competition. Oh well. I'm still using my KEYᵒⁿᵉ lol. Waiting to see if this supposed 5G keyboard device will ever materialize... good to see a lot of the usuals are still here posting.
    the_boon likes this.
    05-19-21 08:49 AM
  23. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Fewer and fewer choices. Less and less innovation to come due to lack of competition. Oh well. I'm still using my KEYᵒⁿᵉ lol. Waiting to see if this supposed 5G keyboard device will ever materialize... good to see a lot of the usuals are still here posting.
    Nah, I think it’s the product maturation part of lifecycle….
    05-19-21 10:07 AM
  24. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Nah, I think it’s the product maturation part of lifecycle….
    Yeah some don't get that the "innovation" cycle for most any product.... it's has nothing to do with how many OEM are out there - most of whom are only followers that copy the most successful.

    And I really don't understand why they usually use the word "innovation" along with the PKB form factor.... think retro is the word that applies best, or maybe utilitarian.
    pdr733 and ppeters914 like this.
    05-19-21 10:44 AM
  25. the_boon's Avatar
    Yeah some don't get that the "innovation" cycle for most any product.... it's has nothing to do with how many OEM are out there - most of whom are only followers that copy the most successful.

    And I really don't understand why they usually use the word "innovation" along with the PKB form factor.... think retro is the word that applies best, or maybe utilitarian.
    PKB can be innovative depending on how it's implemented.

    Admittedly, a candybar PKB like the KEY series isn't really innovative, but it is different.
    A slider/modular type PKB would be more innovative.

    In any case, aside from a handful of foldables and kickstarter niche phones, the smartphone market is as boring/stale as can be.
    bh7171 likes this.
    05-19-21 10:17 PM
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