02-05-13 05:45 AM
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  1. Eumaeus's Avatar
    Grading on a curve?

    BB10 isn't competing against the competitors' v.1.0 releases. The "tired", "showing their age" OSes from the competitors have had years and years of refinement based on in-the-field use by tens of millions of users and a hundred networks across the world.

    BB10 is clearly miles ahead of iOS 1.0 or Android 1.0. In terms of features. The Z10 will be very close to the competition in terms of features and price. It will be ahead of them in some areas, behind them in others.

    The plan for Blackberry has to be (1) to satisfy their base--consumer fans and business who still standardize on BB--with solid new phones and the promise of a new direction, thus (2) staying alive as they gradually continue to rebuild their corporate culture, software and hardware engineering, and business plans for gradual growth.

    Since respected reviewers like David Pogue and Stephen Fry have been impressed by the Z10, it might work. The Crackberry crowd should be happy with the new stuff, patient with the inevitable v.1 problems, and cautiously optimistic. Blackberry is not going to displace Apple or the Android behemoth this year, next year, or the next year. They might survive, and they might do well. A thousand things have to happen, and they are on, like, step 6.


    I've said it before, but I really, really hope they are doing some creative thinking about path-to-market; where will people buy BB phones? Competing for shelf-space at the carriers' stores seems like a losing proposition. The Asian android makers have overwhelming numbers. Apple got around this by cutting out the carriers, at least in terms of retail sales, to a large extent. Microsoft has its own stores, and provides evidence that retail might be harder than it looks. BB phones need to be seen as special. Their innovative UI needs to be experienced if it is going to sell phones. A singer and a Super Bowl ad aren't going to be enough. I was sorry not to hear about some interesting retail strategy at the product launch.
    02-02-13 04:24 PM
  2. TrickyCase's Avatar
    the Z10 does have a Bridge application that works with the Playbook OS 2.1, but it doesn't give you the same amount of functionality as an earlier BlackBerry OS.

    you can still launch pages from your phone to the Playbook, or use it as a remote control or presenter; but you cannot now (for the time being at least) access emails, text messages or BBM from your phone.

    its a little disappointing, but I got over it quickly enough.
    02-02-13 04:25 PM
  3. jarrodmeyer's Avatar
    I realize this market is hyper competitive and BB needs to show their A-game, however, lets take a look back shall we?

    OS X 10.0 - > I ran classic until 10.3 Panther (>3 years of development)
    Windows Vista -> Went back to XP until 7 (5 years of development)
    Android 1.0 -> What a mess that was. (2+3 years of development)
    Windows Phone 7.0 -> Sold my HTC after a month, garbage. I heard good things about 7.5 but never looked back. (5 Years of development)
    IOS 1.0 -> Leap forward? Yes. Crippled and Missing features? Absolutely. (3 years of development)
    This was awesome! I was just looking at posting a thread like this yesterday. :P

    Great work.
    02-02-13 04:29 PM
  4. agolongo's Avatar
    "They were much less polished and problematic OSs by today's standards. Those OSs were also competitive "TODAY" ("today" being their respective launch dates). You probably don't remember 2007. "
    No need to insult. I do remember 2007, I remember a cool phone with a webkit browser that didn't have zoom, video capture, exchange support, mms, cut & paste, multi-tasking and made horrible phone calls. What do you remember?
    Last edited by agolongo; 02-02-13 at 04:49 PM.
    02-02-13 04:36 PM
  5. kbz1960's Avatar
    I can partly agree but this is 2013 where the competition is not what it was in 2007.
    When I read the title I KNEW this would be said.

    Does it make it any less impressive? Does it mean it can't compete?
    02-02-13 04:38 PM
  6. howarmat's Avatar
    When I read the title I KNEW this would be said.

    Does it make it any less impressive? Does it mean it can't compete?
    Neither, BB10 is very impressive for a what it is, call it OS 2 maybe. Im just saying you cant comapare OS 1 of the competition to the current state of BB10.
    Rickroller, mikeo007 and kbz1960 like this.
    02-02-13 05:49 PM
  7. richardat's Avatar
    Yes, I'm sorry, but this is a completely erroneous perspective in all relevant ways:

    tech perspective - not comparable, as tech builds on itself - both the ideas and the manufacturing. To make any meaningful comparison of a tech aspect, for example (one of many) if one is to look at the feature set, it isn't appropriate to compare to a first release 1, 2, 5, 10, 100 years ago. It must be compared to it's current peers.

    business perspective - completely non sequitur. The product isn't up against a 5 year old iphone or even winphone of 2 years ago....thinking this way, even a little, is absolute disaster, especially in fast moving tech

    customer perspective - cannot be expected to give you brownie points for your first-try, and they would be foolish to bank on future improvements/release - especially vague unpromised ones - as even the ones explicitly promised have a history of going out the window in the tech field

    I am sure when Chevy releases one of it's countless new rattle-box cars (forget the last 10 times we said this - THIS model is the one where we've reached new high standards), it's feature set will compare well to the first model Cavalier. In fact I'm sure it will compare well to a 1978 Honda Civic. That doesn't make it a good car.

    What this is - to be very blunt - in an exercise in self-serving irrational thinking. It is patting oneself on the back by making clearly unfair, erroneous, and non-relevant comparisons. It is one thing for fanatics to do this....while I don't think it's good to encourage ill-reasoned thinking, it can't hurt the company, but I certainly hope this kind of thinking - even a heavily watered down version - is not occurring at any level within RIM.
    02-02-13 06:11 PM
  8. Semi5's Avatar
    This would work if Blackberry was competing against the iPhone 1. I dont think you can say to potential customers..."We know our software is lacking, but just give us five years and we will be good to go".
    richardat likes this.
    02-02-13 06:14 PM
  9. Rickroller's Avatar
    When I read the title I KNEW this would be said.

    Does it make it any less impressive? Does it mean it can't compete?
    I don't think anyone was implying anything of the sort. But be real. You can't compare something now with something from 5-6 years ago. The game has changed completely since then, largely due to what trends both those OS's started. Besides, wouldn't we be comparing PBOS 1.0 with those other OS's, seeing as how that was (according to most people around here) RIM's beta for BB10?
    02-02-13 06:51 PM
  10. kill_9's Avatar
    the question you have to ask is how long did it take Google and apple to build iOS and Android? took the same amount of time if not longer for them, and both came out with flaws. RIM is not at a life or death thing like most think, the Z10 release will buy them time to makes sales and revenues to build up more. if RIM was to go out of business it would take a few more years to happen and really a few more years can make BB10 that much better while others are still in the build up stages of their systems. **** BB10 is great now give it a few more months to a year and it'll be killer.\
    Apple and Google came to market at a much different time in the wireless industry. If they appeared for the first time today they would face the same challenges as BlackBerry although without the baggage of a tarnished public image. BlackBerry does not have years to reverse its fortunes; at most there are three fiscal quarters but realistically BlackBerry needed to knock it out of the park during 1Q2013 (January through March); the late availability of BlackBerry Z10 in the US market and BlackBerry Q10 globally could negatively impact overall sales. If BlackBerry Z10 sells out in every market, during the associated launch period, into which it is introduced, there will be reason to think the corner has been turned. As to your comment about BlackBerry building up services around the BlackBerry 10 smartphones you seem to forget the decision to drop BlackBerry Internet Service (BIS) and its associated data compression and encrypted BBM communication for BlackBerry 10 users.

    ... you can stick your head in the hole that every other US citizen is doing or you can open your eyes to the rest of the world and see what BlackBerry is doing is truly amazing
    ROFLMAO You are so funny. Not.
    richardat likes this.
    02-02-13 07:10 PM
  11. kill_9's Avatar
    ... they accomplished that with a phone and OS that has a lot of potential...
    Where have we heard this exact same assessment before? Oh right! Shortly after the BlackBerry PlayBook launched in April 2011. And it took BlackBerry most of the intervening two years to still not fully exploit the potential of the tablet's hardware and software capabilities. If not for the third-party developers most people would have abandoned the BlackBerry PlayBook. Thank you to those few developers of high-quality applications - you know whom you are. The same scenario, not exploiting the full potential of the hardware and software, cannot be repeated with the BlackBerry 10 smartphones if BlackBerry wants to "get back in the race and over time they can win back former customers and their competitions' customers."
    02-02-13 07:21 PM
  12. kill_9's Avatar
    the z10 does have a bridge application that works with the playbook os 2.1, but it doesn't give you the same amount of functionality as an earlier blackberry os.

    You can still launch pages from your phone to the playbook, or use it as a remote control or presenter; but you cannot now (for the time being at least) access emails, text messages or bbm from your phone.
    This is unacceptable. Full stop.
    02-02-13 07:23 PM
  13. kbz1960's Avatar
    I don't think anyone was implying anything of the sort. But be real. You can't compare something now with something from 5-6 years ago. The game has changed completely since then, largely due to what trends both those OS's started. Besides, wouldn't we be comparing PBOS 1.0 with those other OS's, seeing as how that was (according to most people around here) RIM's beta for BB10?
    I'm looking forward to your review after you get yours to hear an unbiased (no such thing) review and comparison on where they are today BB10 first release (no not pb OS as it is quite different) and android Jelly Bean androids 10th version not counting . versions.
    02-02-13 07:33 PM
  14. Rickroller's Avatar
    I'm looking forward to your review after you get yours to hear an unbiased (no such thing) review and comparison on where they are today BB10 first release (no not pb OS as it is quite different) and android Jelly Bean androids 10th version not counting . versions.
    Is the PB OS "quite different"? Gestures are basically the same, minimized apps are basically the same, in fact, pretty much anyone with a PB has said their transition to the Z10 has been pretty much flawless. Considering they are based upon the same RTOS kernel, I think the only true differences lie in the appearance, along with some minor changes.

    As for my review, I know you're waiting with baited breath, but after hearing about all the Gmail issues (which i'm obviously heavily reliant on), screen quality issues, lack of LED support and profiles, I may end up waiting to purchase. I'll still test it out in the store, which should make any comparison I do just as good as anyone elses, no? But thanks for your concern regarding my review, which in no way, shape, or form lends to this current topic!
    02-02-13 07:42 PM
  15. LazyEvul's Avatar
    Is the PB OS "quite different"? Gestures are basically the same, minimized apps are basically the same, in fact, pretty much anyone with a PB has said their transition to the Z10 has been pretty much flawless. Considering they are based upon the same RTOS kernel, I think the only true differences lie in the appearance, along with some minor changes.
    There's a key difference behind the scenes - the majority of core apps on BlackBerry Tablet OS are written in Adobe AIR, which was frankly an awful decision. The core apps on the Z10 are all written in native Cascades, which is significantly more efficient than Adobe AIR.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    02-02-13 07:51 PM
  16. Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes's Avatar
    Rickroller,

    In another thread you claimed to have RIM stock. Why is that if you think OS is so horrible?
    02-02-13 07:52 PM
  17. kbz1960's Avatar
    What they said

    Is the PB OS "quite different"? Gestures are basically the same, minimized apps are basically the same, in fact, pretty much anyone with a PB has said their transition to the Z10 has been pretty much flawless. Considering they are based upon the same RTOS kernel, I think the only true differences lie in the appearance, along with some minor changes.

    As for my review, I know you're waiting with baited breath, but after hearing about all the Gmail issues (which i'm obviously heavily reliant on), screen quality issues, lack of LED support and profiles, I may end up waiting to purchase. I'll still test it out in the store, which should make any comparison I do just as good as anyone elses, no? But thanks for your concern regarding my review, which in no way, shape, or form lends to this current topic!
    There's a key difference behind the scenes - the majority of core apps on BlackBerry Tablet OS are written in Adobe AIR, which was frankly an awful decision. The core apps on the Z10 are all written in native Cascades, which is significantly more efficient than Adobe AIR.
    02-02-13 07:54 PM
  18. Rickroller's Avatar
    There's a key difference behind the scenes - the majority of core apps on BlackBerry Tablet OS are written in Adobe AIR, which was frankly an awful decision. The core apps on the Z10 are all written in native Cascades, which is significantly more efficient than Adobe AIR.
    Regardless of how the apps were written, I believe overall it to be similiar enough to be called a beta. And according to many of the CB posters who have PB's, they would agree. Regardless, it's not like BB10 is RIM's first foray into the phone market. They've built 7 iterations on the legacy BBOS that they had to reference to and build from.
    02-02-13 08:01 PM
  19. Rickroller's Avatar
    Rickroller,

    In another thread you claimed to have RIM stock. Why is that if you think OS is so horrible?
    When have I EVER said the OS was horrible? I challenge you to go find any post of mine where I make a statement like this. I bought stock at $7.65 because I believe it was undervalued, and RIM is a tech company that does have a very good shot at making a comeback. My personal preference for Android at this moment doesn't take away from any of that.
    richardat and mikeo007 like this.
    02-02-13 08:04 PM
  20. LazyEvul's Avatar
    Regardless of how the apps were written, I believe overall it to be similiar enough to be called a beta. And according to many of the CB posters who have PB's, they would agree. Regardless, it's not like BB10 is RIM's first foray into the phone market. They've built 7 iterations on the legacy BBOS that they had to reference to and build from.
    Yes, they did have some advantages in that respect, but having to rewrite everything from scratch (apart from the kernel and maybe some of the more minor functions) makes it pretty difficult to be able to concentrate on the details.
    02-02-13 08:08 PM
  21. berklon's Avatar
    Grading on a curve?

    BB10 isn't competing against the competitors' v.1.0 releases.
    Exactly.

    When looking at a phone to buy, people aren't going to compare the Z10 to a phone released 5 or 3 years ago... they're going to compare it to their options TODAY.
    This is part of the problem Blackberry has - it's tough to sway people away from an iPhone and Android device when that means having to give up monster ecosystems. Almost every review has stated this - and it's hard to argue.
    No matter how much you like the Z10, Blackberry needed a game-changer and they couldn't provide it.

    But at least now Blackberry has a competitive product - and that's a major victory for the company itself.
    The Z10 will sway a small percentage of iPhone/Android users - mainly those who are bored with the UI or wants to concentrate on communications and less on apps. It'll be a small group, but every little bit helps.

    Now the 80 million current Blackberry users out there, a larger percentage of them will jump on BB10 - but you can't count on a majority of them since the iOS/Android ecosystem is tough to ignore.

    Right now... Blackberry REALLY needs to keep improving - they CANNOT stop.

    By the time of the US release, there MUST already be a BB10 update in place to fix nagging issues, improving performance, adding features, etc. The US market is EXTREMELY important and it'll be a tough sell - so they need to put their best foot forward, especially since they have another month to improve and can use Canada and the UK as testers.
    They also need to increase the amount of important apps that users expect where-ever they can.

    They cannot treat this like the Playbook - this needs to be a constant work in progress without making it feel like we're all beta-testers to an incomplete product.
    It needs to evolve into something solid to change the mindshare of the consumer.
    richardat likes this.
    02-02-13 08:10 PM
  22. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Looking to competitors' 1.0 releases isn't really all that useful, since those 1.0 releases were years and years ago, and today is a different market.

    RIM has to execute *perfectly*.

    The launch event was great, but the lack of US availability, plus the foolhardy decision to heavily advertise a product that nobody here can buy, is going to put a serious crimp in their early momentum.

    I had high hopes, given the ridiculously bad launch of WP8 by Microsoft and Nokia ("here is the handset, no ship dates, no prices, no carriers"), but... no availability is bad news.

    I wish I could say something different, but it's the truth as I see it.
    richardat likes this.
    02-02-13 08:24 PM
  23. greatwiseone's Avatar
    Yes, you can't compare BB10 with iPhone 1 and T-mobile G1. Of course, the competition is different now. Fact of the matter is though, QNX's been only in RIM/BB's hands for just less than 3 years. Android was bought by Google in 2005; iOS is a derivation of OSX. QNX was an established embedded OS, but there was tons of work to build out the UI, developer tools, the services on top, the different radio stacks, etc. Lots of software had to be created for BB10.

    While flawed, it was pretty crazy that they were able to push out the Tablet OS in less than a year within the company. RIM/BB need to spend the time not only to build the software but also to enter into agreements with all sorts of different partners and to license different pieces of technology. All of this take time. People in these forums think that RIM/BB can just throw money at people and they would license their technology/media to RIM/BB, but that's not how it works. It's all very complicated and negotiations take long time, including negotiations with all of the carriers.

    So, like other 1.0 releases, BB10 is likely the WORST version we'll see. RIM/BB will just keep building on top of BB10, now that the basic plumbing is all there. With the quality of the developer tools (Cascades, Webworks) and the support for different platforms of app development (C++, Qt, Android Java, HTML5, and Air), BB10 should be able to ramp up with features and apps fairly quickly.

    A lot of reviews say BB10 doesn't do anything particularly better than other platforms, but that in itself, as a 1.0 release, is pretty remarkable. We aren't missing stupid things like copy and paste (which took iOS 2 years and 3 versions to get), and the OS right now is more than adequate. It might not have a camera as good as the Nokia 920 or the quality of maps as Google Maps, but what's on BB10 right now is usable and functional.
    richardat and Gla1ze like this.
    02-02-13 08:28 PM
  24. Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes's Avatar
    When have I EVER said the OS was horrible? I challenge you to go find any post of mine where I make a statement like this. I bought stock at $7.65 because I believe it was undervalued, and RIM is a tech company that does have a very good shot at making a comeback. My personal preference for Android at this moment doesn't take away from any of that.
    You imply its not a good OS through your comments every day. Everyone around here knows it, you haven't exactly kept up a good charade.
    02-02-13 08:31 PM
  25. Rickroller's Avatar
    You imply its not a good OS through your comments every day. Everyone around here knows it, you haven't exactly kept up a good charade.
    Actually no. Any implications come from the fanboy bubble many live in. Generally all's I point out are things that are factually incorrect and how Android does many things better (from my viewpoint). Of course, now with BB10 released, a lot of those discrepancies are smaller. Was I a fan of BBOS 7? No.. But judging from market share.. I'd say I wasn't alone.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    richardat and mikeo007 like this.
    02-02-13 08:52 PM
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