[monil11]

I think it's kind of a lose lose situation here for BlackBerry. If they do lock it down then users are mad, it they don't then devs are not happy.

However if they were to do one of the two I think not locking it down would make more sense. Simply because if do lock it down it would upset a lot of hardcore loyal users and BlackBerry can't afford to make them mad at this point. And as for the devs we haven't seen any major app dev complain or take action on this issue yet so maybe this won't be a big problem.

However here is an idea, lock it down but like most other companies not tightly enough (intentionally or unintentionally). Once someone figured out how to get past it, the rest can easily follow.

Posted via CB10

[avt123]

It is not illegal because it doesn't break any law.

Besides, you can just say you're "testing". That's what satellite TV testers say what they are watching UFC and boxing fights and the latest movies for free.

Posted via CB10

So lying makes it ok?

Wtf?

[Kris Simundson]

Yah, but everyone would figure out how to do it anyways, and turn it on. It's not a permanent measure, and how exactly do you "select" against the common sideloader and the actual dev
Theoretically, I've always taken sideloading to be more of a grey area. It's not legal, but it's not fully illegal either, at least in terms of free apps. I guess it really depends on the TOS of the specific apps. In the case of IG, it says no change, modify, adapt or alter the Service. Well, we didn't modify their site or api, or anything to be honest. Sure, we converted it to a bar, but the apk itself is intact and untouched and not modified. We only converted to bar as a measure so the runtime can recognize it. Essentially, it is still running the apk, not a modified version of it.
Having said all this, I'm fully against downloading of paid apps and trying to convert them IF you did not purchase it. This is outright piracy on all grounds, and there is no way to justify this.
As for whether I support sideloading? Sure it is very convenient, and I do it too. However, If BB can pull in more apps and devs in the long run, I'm ok with stepping away from sideloading. The only reason I do it now is for the use apps that have no equivalent in BBW

I agree to all, I mean, I advocate that it's piracy, but I'm no better as I have sideloaded before. When I first got my Z10, I sideloaded lots. I knew how, I liked my android apps. But as I started to become more integrated with the Crackberry community, and some more knowledgeable people, and debates with people like Bla1ze over sideloading, I've actually changed my view on it.

I actually still have a sideloaded version of skype on my phone because the BlackBerry World version doesn't work for me. I sideloaded Vine, IG, and CC the other day when people had issues, but they're all off my phone now.

[DSL9700]

Why not just send a cheque for 99 cents to the developer, with a thank you card. problem solved.

[mikeo007]

this right here is the major issue.

https://bdsc.webapps.blackberry.com/android/bpaa/

BlackBerry themselves offers up a online APK2BAR converter for Android Devs to simply test if their app is compatible. If there are no errors it spits out a bar file for them, and then all they need to do is get hands on a BB10 device and sideload. Which is perfectly fine, it's a Developer feature afterall. The issue is that they're making Dev mode to easy to access for the common user. I say a option like in android 4.1 and up where they disabled development mode unless you knew how to turn it on. (tap on build number 7 times)

Unfortunately, that would just be one more step to activate dev mode. In this Internet age, there are guides to do anything. The main problem with sideloading is that it's TOO easy to do. I understand they want to make it as simple as possible for devs, but they e gone too far. What they need to do is make it complicated enough so that the average user won't use it, but not so complicated that it makes a dev's life hell.

A few things I can think of that may help the problem:

- require a debug token for sideloading. Don't allow sideloading of signed BAR files. You're killing 2 birds with one stone here by stopping unauthorized install and distribution of Android apps.

- require a device to be registered to a developer account before dev-mode can be enabled. Signing up for an account requires sending a copy of your drivers license to BB, so that will stop a lot of people cold. Real developers won't care though as they need to go through the process anyway.

- make developer mode restrict or hinder access in some way. How about dev mode overlays your PIN on the screen? A lot of people hated that in the OS leaks this year.

Regardless of how they go about it, they need to limit this feature to authorized devs only. They're going to get themselves into a lot of hot water if they keep on the current course.

[Kris Simundson]

For the poster about GMAPS, these are BeMaps10 screens. If you support a good Dev things come from it. These are the same guys who make BeWeather, BeBuzz. Oh and it's all native.









Posted via CB10

[xandermac]

Ideally, RIM would re-work the runtime to have direct access to the playstore and get some kind of revenue sharing deal in place with google.

[theRock1975]

Wow, you have such failed logic it's not even funny

Getting free PPV isn't stealing?

Many people do consider it stealing but it is definitely not illegal unless you profit from it yourself.

The OP was asking if it's LEGAL, not if it's stealing or morally wrong.

How is this failed logic? It's not even illegal to smoke marijuana or hire a hooker in most countries. Why would it be illegal to sideload an app?

Posted via CB10

[pkcable]

Lets not get TOO crazy on the moral issue here. And/Or remember to discuss this civilly. Even if someone has a different option than yours it's no less valid. You CAN disagree withOUT being disagreeable. If you know what I mean. So far we are ok, BUT I can see tempers flaring up on this REAL quick. Lets NOT let that happen!

[avt123]

Many people do consider it stealing but it is definitely not illegal unless you profit from it yourself.

The OP was asking if it's ILLEGAL, not if it's stealing or morally wrong.

How is this failed logic? It's not even illegal to smoke marijuana or hire a hooker in most countries. Why would it be illegal to sideload an app?

Posted via CB10

Because you are stealing a product that someone else made for a completely different ecosystem.

steal [steel] Show IPA verb, stole, sto�len, steal�ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stealing?s=t

[Acidwire]

It is not illegal because it doesn't break any law.

Besides, you can just say you're "testing". That's what satellite TV testers say what they are watching UFC and boxing fights and the latest movies for free.

Posted via CB10

[Barljo]

Many people do consider it stealing but it is definitely not illegal unless you profit from it yourself.

The OP was asking if it's ILLEGAL, not if it's stealing or morally wrong.

How is this failed logic? It's not even illegal to smoke marijuana or hire a hooker in most countries. Why would it be illegal to sideload an app?

Posted via CB10

It's a very emotive area, but aren't you profiting from use of the app that you haven't paid for (in your example, watching a bout that you haven't paid to)? If your friend rips a CD to mp3 and gives you a copy on a memory card, say, that's you getting music that you haven't paid for, whilst neither of you has made any "profit".

The whole thing gets a lot greyer and less defined when you're talking about non-paid apps...

Would I sideload an android paid game? No way.
Will I convert my bank's android app when they release it so that I can use it? If at all possible, yes.

Morals are confusing enough in my own head without trying to worry about other people's thought processes!

[nabil114]

Since we all talk about side loading on this website and forums, I just want to know if side loading is legal. In particular, is taking an apk file that is NOT developed by us and converting it into a bar file legal? Maybe the guys at CB could answer this?

If it is legal then is it possible in theory to have an Android app store for BlackBerry which provides converted bar files for at least the free Android apps so that we can install these apps directly from the device instead of side loading.

Posted via CB10

If it is not a paid application, I think it is fine.

[Poirots Progeny]

If it isn't in BB World, it is nt meant to be on your device. Simple as that. Want those apps? Buy an iOS or Android device.



You are taking someones work that they made for a different platform and bringing it to the platform you use without their permission because YOU want it. Yep, sounds like you are a thief.



How many users do you think actually know about side loading? I would think very little.



Stop stealing from developers and support them by emailing them to make apps for BB10, or go use their apps where it is legal, in the stores you are stealing their apps from.

Hey you're right. First step, let's have CB stop posting about all those nice apps they're sideloading.

And also, this is precisely why I own a galaxy S4. I personally only ever sideloaded skype - and now I don't need to, so I'm very happy (my sideloading experience was not that great, if I'm honest - skype would crash a lot!).

And re how many people know about sideloading - well apart from the people that watched the BlackBerry reveal, not many, I would wager.

This is obviously a contentious issue. Some feel it's a positive, as it allows access (legal or no) to apps that do not exist on this platform. The inverse is equally relevant : the missing apps do not exist on this platform - thus they are not meant to be used by BlackBerry users. Solution? Buy another platform.

All truisms.

And I'm fortunate to not have to be worried by this quandry, I own an android and an ios device - I currently use my BlackBerry device an an emergency device, as BlackBerry doesnt currently support openvpn - but that's a digression.

Finally, I'm merely being rhetorical, as part of this discussion. So let's not get personal. We're all adults here, let's discourse as such. Leave the finger pointing, blame and insults for another blog site.

Either way, you've made very valid points and I agree with you that sideloading can be construed as a poor substitute for actual developer interest and activity, on the BlackBerry 10 platform.

Posted via CB10 on my BlackBerry Q10

[JasW]

Many people do consider it stealing but it is definitely not illegal unless you profit from it yourself.

The OP was asking if it's ILLEGAL, not if it's stealing or morally wrong.

How is this failed logic? It's not even illegal to smoke marijuana or hire a hooker in most countries. Why would it be illegal to sideload an app?

Posted via CB10

The same way it's illegal to download a movie you haven't paid for. The app is the developer's intellectual property. You have not acquired a license to use the app on a BB10 -- just like when you download a movie, you have not acquired a license to download and view the movie.

You may be confused by the term "illegal." There are civil and criminal violations of the law. Conduct that constitutes a civil violation is "illegal." Just because you can't (or won't) be arrested for sideloading doesn't make it not illegal.

[monil11]

Buy BeMaps10, you'll get amazing google maps.

As for the other apps, if they're needed that badly, buy a cheap droid phone, or a ipod. There are other alternatives besides pirating someone elses work.

Sure there are some good alternatives seen recently, however there certainly aren't enough alternatives to stop people from side loading. And if we all start looking at buying Android devices to fill the app needs then eventually people stop using/buying BlackBerry altogether. And then we won't even have this problem to begin with. Not a

Posted via CB10

[Kris Simundson]

Many people do consider it stealing but it is definitely not illegal unless you profit from it yourself.

The OP was asking if it's ILLEGAL, not if it's stealing or morally wrong.

How is this failed logic? It's not even illegal to smoke marijuana or hire a hooker in most countries. Why would it be illegal to sideload an app?

Posted via CB10

How are you not profiting from it? You just saved 50$ by stealing it? Lol

Posted via CB10

[Poirots Progeny]

Wow, you have such failed logic it's not even funny

Getting free PPV isn't stealing?

Lol

Posted via CB10 on my BlackBerry Q10

[theRock1975]

So lying makes it ok?

Wtf?

No it doesn't.

Not having a specific law makes it legally ok.
There's nothing a developer can do legally about side loading but there are ways to gain revenue.

For instance, they can decide to make the app available in blackberry app world and collect money from the users that want the app. They can regularly force upgrades on the client and deny users with older client version. This would nag the sideloaders to death.

Posted via CB10

[Poirots Progeny]

I agree to all, I mean, I advocate that it's piracy, but I'm no better as I have sideloaded before. When I first got my Z10, I sideloaded lots. I knew how, I liked my android apps. But as I started to become more integrated with the Crackberry community, and some more knowledgeable people, and debates with people like Bla1ze over sideloading, I've actually changed my view on it.

I actually still have a sideloaded version of skype on my phone because the BlackBerry World version doesn't work for me. I sideloaded Vine, IG, and CC the other day when people had issues, but they're all off my phone now.

Well I actually sideloaded skype because it wasn't in app world at the time - so similar precept.

Hey, you're a bad boy. 20 minutes in the naughty corner for you.

Would've been thirty but your work on the os leaks excuses you some!!!

I'm trying (and probably failing) to be funny - before anyone tries to bite my head off lol

Posted via CB10 on my BlackBerry Q10

[masterscarhead1]

I've already voiced my opinion on this in a previous comment
However, I want to say that I think RIM has done it's share to prevent piracy. They encrypt backups so bars can no longer be distributed from app world
Now, the apk's floating around should be Google's responsibility. They are allowing people have free access to the apk. BB isn't the only ones using the apk's though. Look at Bluestack. I think Google should be locking this down, not RIM
The same should be said about ipa's in Apple and repositories like hackulous.
If Google and Apple stop the distribution of their own software and apps, they, and the devs would not have this problem

[Poirots Progeny]

Lets not get TOO crazy on the moral issue here. And/Or remember to discuss this civilly. Even if someone has a different option than yours it's no less valid. You CAN disagree withOUT being disagreeable. If you know what I mean. So far we are ok, BUT I can see tempers flaring up on this REAL quick. Lets NOT let that happen!

Well said

Posted via CB10 on my BlackBerry Q10

[masterscarhead1]

No it doesn't.

Not having a specific law makes it legally ok.
There's nothing a developer can do legally about side loading but there are ways to gain revenue.

For instance, they can decide to make the app available in blackberry app world and collect money from the users that want the app. They can regularly force upgrades on the client and deny users with older client version. This would nag the sideloaders to death.

Posted via CB10

Just because a law doesn't exist, doesn't make it ok
It just means it's more in a grey area. For example, streaming movies online is not illegal, but it doesn't make it any different from piracy because the movie makers get nothing out of it
However, I personally don't understand why devs don't just port their apps for BBW. I mean if we can do it without modification, why not do it for their apps?

[Acidwire]

i disagree with sideloading, ive always thought it was a bit dodgy to sponge off another platforms apps even if it isnt blackberry themselves advocating it for customers but devs only. i would hope they implement a system where you need to use a unique keycode to log into the sideloaded app or into the apk to bar converter that you receive directly to your devs email account linked to the app on the platform you developed it for (a bit like the private bbm beta) when the converter processes the app name

this way you would be proving you are the actual dev that owns the app as you can only get the keycode from your registered google play or itunes email (you cant choose the email it goes to as the converter would automatically search google play or itunes for the corresponding app and pull the details publicly displayed) and it only works once, you need to reapply for another code if you install it on a new os leak for example to stop people leaking the code around so everyone can use it. no idea how this would work as ive never sideloaded still being on bbos5 until my contract is up but an ideas an idea

[ubizmo]

Many people do consider it stealing but it is definitely not illegal unless you profit from it yourself.

That's false. I can steal your car and drive it into a lake, not profiting in any way from doing so. It's still theft. The situation is similar to posting song covers on YouTube. I don't have to profit in any way for doing so for the copyright holder to require me to take the video down. This has in fact happened to me, once.

In the case of apps, these apps were originally published in Google Play, not released to the world. The developer gave Google Play, and no one else, permission to distribute the apps. By sideloading them, we are in effect extending that distribution scheme without permission.

I have little doubt that eventually someone will sue BlackBerry over this, and they will be forced to close the door on sideloading. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they already have the way to do this ready to go at a moment's notice. There are lots of ways they could do it. But until they do get a legal challenge, they have no reason to close the door preemptively. At the moment, it's a benefit to end users who are not developers, but I don't expect it to last forever.