04-15-14 06:42 AM
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  1. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    What happens when no one offers what you want?
    You get the next best thing or something completely different. Why would anybody stay loyal to a company with a product they don't like?


    #believeinfilm
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-14-14 07:40 AM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    LOL. Don't take that seriously. It sounds like legacy users doesn't it? BB10 is killing BBRY. They hate us and made a phone we can't stand so if they don't keep legacy I'm moving to any other platform I can.
    The difference is BB10 really is killing BlackBerry, and it's not Legacy users fault at any rate.


    #believeinfilm
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-14-14 07:41 AM
  3. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    The difference is BB10 really is killing BlackBerry, and it's not Legacy users fault at any rate.
    #believeinfilm
    Agree. BB10 is absolutely killing BBRY. The question, therefore, is whether legacy users are sufficient enough in numbers to keep BBRY alive. My sense is, given where things have been going for years, the answer is no.

    BB7 sales only look good compared to BB10 sales. When you look at BB7 sales compared to iOS, Android and even WP, it's clear that the future is bleak.
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-14-14 08:17 AM
  4. A895's Avatar
    So going from legacy to no home button is a deal breaker. Ok.
    Makes sense. Legacy devices had a lot of buttons. Android devices has back, home and multitasking buttons which makes it easier for someone to pick up and use.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-14-14 08:32 AM
  5. A895's Avatar
    Agree. BB10 is absolutely killing BBRY. The question, therefore, is whether legacy users are sufficient enough in numbers to keep BBRY alive. My sense is, given where things have been going for years, the answer is no.

    BB7 sales only look good compared to BB10 sales. When you look at BB7 sales compared to iOS, Android and even WP, it's clear that the future is bleak.
    There are still millions more legacy users than BB10 users which is what really matters.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-14-14 08:34 AM
  6. kbz1960's Avatar
    You get the next best thing or something completely different. Why would anybody stay loyal to a company with a product they don't like?


    #believeinfilm
    So why not just do? Or is everyone holding out hope that BBRY will come to their senses and scrap BB10 and go back to BBOS?

    Any way, I thought what got them the point of changing was they were already in trouble. Some seem to forget that. It would be great if they could continue both but they struggle with both or each one separately. If it wasn't for enterprise we would see no rerun of the bold or any other BBOS device.
    anon(5828343) likes this.
    04-14-14 08:45 AM
  7. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    So why not just do? Or is everyone holding out hope that BBRY will come to their senses and scrap BB10 and go back to BBOS?

    Any way, I thought what got them the point of changing was they were already in trouble. Some seem to forget that. It would be great if they could continue both but they struggle with both or each one separately. If it wasn't for enterprise we would see no rerun of the bold or any other BBOS device.
    People seem go forget that developers vastly prefer BB10 over BBOS... app sales are greater even without the bigger population of users. Scrap BB10 and you'll have outrage and further damage to their image.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    kbz1960 and anon(5828343) like this.
    04-14-14 08:53 AM
  8. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    There are still millions more legacy users than BB10 users which is what really matters.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    I agree but more and more of them are switching to other devices everyday.

    People like to cite Indonesia as the place where BBRY supposedly has a hold on the market but that is a complete myth. Indonesia is not immune from what has happened everywhere else in the world. I've visited Indonesia regularly for the past decade and while I did observe an obviously strong market position for BBRY in Jakarta in the past, that is hardly true today.

    Have a look at the following article from an Indonesian news outlet:

    BlackBerry Losing Indonesia Smartphone War - The Jakarta Globe

    The graphic at the start of the article is telling and when you read comments like:
    - "'I decided to no longer use BB because it simply is outdated. I also experienced a lot of lag when I used it,' said Indra Suwito, a former BB user, in an interview"
    - "'BB [BlackBerry] has lost traction to an apps-hungry market, which have preference towards certain OS [operating systems] that offer many more options,' Darwin Lie, an associate analyst at IDC Indonesia, said on Sunday."
    - "'I could only sell half of the usual number [of BlackBerry handsets] after BBM was introduced into other platforms,' Wulan Andriani, a BlackBerry saleswoman in South Jakarta’s Ambassador mall, told the Jakarta Globe on Friday."

    You get a better understanding of what Indonesia looks like for BBRY on the ground. It's silly for BBRY and some of the fans here to pretend that it is otherwise and that somehow BB7 users in these markets are immune from the emergence of Android and iOS and the severe limitations on BB7 to compete. So where does that leave BBRY? Yes, it can continue servicing a shrinking BB7 base but is there really much of a future in that?
    kbz1960 and JeepBB like this.
    04-14-14 08:54 AM
  9. A895's Avatar
    I agree but more and more of them are switching to other devices everyday.

    People like to cite Indonesia as the place where BBRY supposedly has a hold on the market but that is a complete myth. Indonesia is not immune from what has happened everywhere else in the world. I've visited Indonesia regularly for the past decade and while I did observe an obviously strong market position for BBRY in Jakarta in the past, that is hardly true today.

    Have a look at the following article from an Indonesian news outlet:

    BlackBerry Losing Indonesia Smartphone War - The Jakarta Globe

    The graphic at the start of the article is telling and when you read comments like:
    - "'I decided to no longer use BB because it simply is outdated. I also experienced a lot of lag when I used it,' said Indra Suwito, a former BB user, in an interview"
    - "'BB [BlackBerry] has lost traction to an apps-hungry market, which have preference towards certain OS [operating systems] that offer many more options,' Darwin Lie, an associate analyst at IDC Indonesia, said on Sunday."
    - "'I could only sell half of the usual number [of BlackBerry handsets] after BBM was introduced into other platforms,' Wulan Andriani, a BlackBerry saleswoman in South Jakarta’s Ambassador mall, told the Jakarta Globe on Friday."

    You get a better understanding of what Indonesia looks like for BBRY on the ground. It's silly for BBRY and some of the fans here to pretend that it is otherwise and that somehow BB7 users in these markets are immune from the emergence of Android and iOS and the severe limitations on BB7 to compete. So where does that leave BBRY? Yes, it can continue servicing a shrinking BB7 base but is there really much of a future in that?
    I know they are losing I'm emerging markets to competitors. I was just making a separate point. The fact is BB7 and BB10 aren't looking the best.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    anon(5828343) and kbz1960 like this.
    04-14-14 09:04 AM
  10. lnichols's Avatar
    That's a very vague statement, it could mean anything, not necessarily that it was under pressure from carriers. Judging by where we are today it didn't refer to carriers at all.


    #believeinfilm
    http://www.thestar.com/business/tech...rier_fees.html

    Here is some more info for you. I'm sure you will dismiss it too.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-14 09:52 AM
  11. kbz1960's Avatar
    BlackBerry-maker RIM under pressure to cut carrier fees | Toronto Star

    Here is some more info for you. I'm sure you will dismiss it too.

    Posted via CB10
    From 2012 no less.
    04-14-14 10:02 AM
  12. daveycrocket's Avatar
    Maybe if BBRY had a stronger record of marketing their devices, I'd be more confident but since the only thing they've proven over the past 3-4 years is their sheer ineptitude, I would think that maintaining two different OS's is a little more than they can handle. If Apple, with its far larger budget, far more capable management team and far more effective marketing and sales strategies won't manage two and, I would argue, competing operating systems, I would think that BBRY with its fast shrinking budget, its ham-fisted management and largely non-existent marketing and sales strategies would probably be well-advised to transition as quickly as possible to a single OS that they can live or die on.

    Don't get me wrong. If BB7 was really the future, I'd be all for it. But I've heard (and I supposed believed) the argument from so many BBRY insiders and fans that BB7's limitations prevented it from competing effectively with iPhone and Android and that there was little more that could be done to perfume this pig. I do realize that there are many (thousands and perhaps even millions) of smartphone users who are perfectly happy with the limitations of BB7 but as time and numbers have shown, those numbers are on a permanent and obvious decline. So if those assumptions are correct, that BB7's days are and have been numbered for quite some time, any smart business would be looking to find its future and transition to it as quickly and as effectively as possible.

    I'll be the first to say that BB10's launch was a complete disaster and that over a year later it is still struggling for stability and relevance. But that is not helped in any way by keeping BB7 alive.

    Again, if BBRY had demonstrated an ability to successfully manage one operating system, then sure, have fun managing two. But since they haven't shown an ability to do anything really right recently, I don't think it hurts them much to actually focus their attention on doing one thing and doing it right.
    Thank you for your reply, if BB10 is still struggling for stability and relevance how would it help to do away with OS 7 particularly in the short term.
    You reference BlackBerry's inability to do anything right recently, this is speculative and an opinion, it is very easy to sight weaknesses in things, fortunately there are many strengths. there is new management which seems to be turning things around and it is felt by those who have their finger on the market that OS 7 should co-exist.
    Fundamentally there are far to many folk out there to just switch it off or phase it out as Microsoft did, when they did, their market share wasn't great, and a much bigger company who could absorb the losses, these being also part of the bigger "windows picture" development.
    04-14-14 10:09 AM
  13. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    Thank you for your reply, if BB10 is still struggling for stability and relevance how would it help to do away with OS 7 particularly in the short term.
    You reference BlackBerry's inability to do anything right recently, this is speculative and an opinion, it is very easy to sight weaknesses in things, fortunately there are many strengths. there is new management which seems to be turning things around and it is felt by those who have their finger on the market that OS 7 should co-exist.
    Fundamentally there are far to many folk out there to just switch it off or phase it out as Microsoft did, when they did, their market share wasn't great, and a much bigger company who could absorb the losses, these being also part of the bigger "windows picture" development.
    Thank you for your insight. First of all, let me say, I am not anti-BB7 at all. My perspective is largely the result of BBRY deciding to launch BB10 last year. In other words, it's too late now for the BB10 genie to be placed back in the bottle so if a choice has to be made, unfortunately, BB10 has to be that choice since it was positioned by BBRY as the future replacement for BB7.

    If this is what a turnaround looks like, I'd hate to see what disaster looks like. When BBRY's cash position is dependant upon government tax refunds, I start to worry whether the underlying business has any future.

    My point with BB7 is not to say that BB10 is doing so well that it can save BBRY. It is that BBRY isn't doing either BB7 or BB10 well. The sales numbers are what they are and the continuing drop in marketshare is not stopping. So unless BBRY has limitless resources and can effectively market not one but two separate and potentially competing operating systems, it might be best for BBRY to actually focus on something for a change. Look at Apple -- in the smartphone space, they have 2 options available right now...the iPhone 5C and the iPhone 5S. Same OS, one slightly more expensive than the other and even that hasn't been a great success with the iPhone 5C largely falling below expectations. So if Apple with all its resources and marketing muscle can't figure it out, how can poor old BBRY?!?
    kbz1960 and JeepBB like this.
    04-14-14 10:18 AM
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    http://www.thestar.com/business/tech...rier_fees.html

    Here is some more info for you. I'm sure you will dismiss it too.

    Posted via CB10
    They're talking about reducing the fees not cutting them altogether. This is in no way evidence for your theory.

    "“RIM intends to continue generating a revenue stream from the services we offer,” said Nick Manning, a spokesman for Waterloo, Ontario-based RIM. He declined to elaborate on any requests for fee reductions cited by the company in last week’s earnings release"




    #believeinfilm
    04-14-14 11:07 AM
  15. daveycrocket's Avatar
    Thank you for your insight. First of all, let me say, I am not anti-BB7 at all. My perspective is largely the result of BBRY deciding to launch BB10 last year. In other words, it's too late now for the BB10 genie to be placed back in the bottle so if a choice has to be made, unfortunately, BB10 has to be that choice since it was positioned by BBRY as the future replacement for BB7.

    If this is what a turnaround looks like, I'd hate to see what disaster looks like. When BBRY's cash position is dependant upon government tax refunds, I start to worry whether the underlying business has any future.

    My point with BB7 is not to say that BB10 is doing so well that it can save BBRY. It is that BBRY isn't doing either BB7 or BB10 well. The sales numbers are what they are and the continuing drop in marketshare is not stopping. So unless BBRY has limitless resources and can effectively market not one but two separate and potentially competing operating systems, it might be best for BBRY to actually focus on something for a change. Look at Apple -- in the smartphone space, they have 2 options available right now...the iPhone 5C and the iPhone 5S. Same OS, one slightly more expensive than the other and even that hasn't been a great success with the iPhone 5C largely falling below expectations. So if Apple with all its resources and marketing muscle can't figure it out, how can poor old BBRY?!?
    Hi whilst I don't disagree with your issues around the launch of BB10, my point is around the Original Post. I get what you are saying but feel its never to late to place your finger in the dyke. Given that there is a change in direction from consumer mass market (the mass market, in my, view was a mistake) to focus more toward the professional user I guess we could argue that this particular genie was being put back in the bottle as it were.
    With regard to apple it does seem as though they are losing market share, just a feeling. Fashion is fickle and moves on to the next best want.
    I also think that much of our comments here are influenced by respective location as in the UK BlackBerry still carries a status amongst professionals
    04-14-14 02:05 PM
  16. lnichols's Avatar
    They're talking about reducing the fees not cutting them altogether. This is in no way evidence for your theory.

    "“RIM intends to continue generating a revenue stream from the services we offer,” said Nick Manning, a spokesman for Waterloo, Ontario-based RIM. He declined to elaborate on any requests for fee reductions cited by the company in last week’s earnings release"




    #believeinfilm
    Yes so let's see. The US carriers want the fees reduced. BlackBerry maybe didn't do it. Carriers push other devices over BlackBerry and reduces the fees they pay by reducing the number of devices on the BIS. They wouldn't care if they reduced then to zero by getting all customers moved over to something else.

    I said carriers don't like paying fees to BlackBerry, and this article basically states that exact fact back in 2012.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-14 02:40 PM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Yes so let's see. The US carriers want the fees reduced. BlackBerry maybe didn't do it. Carriers push other devices over BlackBerry and reduces the fees they pay by reducing the number of devices on the BIS. They wouldn't care if they reduced then to zero by getting all customers moved over to something else.

    I said carriers don't like paying fees to BlackBerry, and this article basically states that exact fact back in 2012.

    Posted via CB10
    What are you talking about? That article is from when Thor was in charge, carriers wanted the fees reduced and Thor scrapped them altogether on BB10. Plus for all we know the fees could've got reduced for BIS.

    At no point did carriers say scrap BIS.


    #believeinfilm
    04-14-14 03:06 PM
  18. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    I also think that much of our comments here are influenced by respective location as in the UK BlackBerry still carries a status amongst professionals
    Thanks. I tend to agree because in the US, Blackberry is virtually invisible and while President Obama apparently still uses one, I find that more and more of my clients (largely corporate executives and lawyers) have already switched to iPhone or, to a much lesser extent, Android.
    daveycrocket likes this.
    04-14-14 04:55 PM
  19. qwerty4ever's Avatar
    I honestly don't see the problem with having both, I mean yes BlackBerry needs to find a way to earn more money with their BB10 phones but I think that it will come in time. If people are happy using a Legacy phone, regardless it is a Blackberry
    All BlackBerry needs do for consumers is offer a full-service BlackBerry Protect as a cloud service and leverage the platform to offer additional subscription services. BlackBerry Enterprise Service as a cloud service for individuals, families, small to medium sized organisations many which don't have in-house IT departments.

    Posted via CB10 on BlackBerry Q5
    anon(8063781) and cgallaer like this.
    04-14-14 05:30 PM
  20. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    All BlackBerry needs do for consumers is offer a full-service BlackBerry Protect as a cloud service and leverage the platform to offer additional subscription services. BlackBerry Enterprise Service as a cloud service for individuals, families, small to medium sized organisations many which don't have in-house IT departments.

    Posted via CB10 on BlackBerry Q5
    This suggestion should be forwarded to BlackBerry.
    04-14-14 05:36 PM
  21. Ray III's Avatar
    So going from legacy to no home button is a deal breaker. Ok.
    You don't think that's just a little bit of a jump?
    04-14-14 07:23 PM
  22. lnichols's Avatar
    What are you talking about? That article is from when Thor was in charge, carriers wanted the fees reduced and Thor scrapped them altogether on BB10. Plus for all we know the fees could've got reduced for BIS.

    At no point did carriers say scrap BIS.


    #believeinfilm
    THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR IT AT ALL! If BlackBerry wants to give away BIS for free then I'm sure the carriers could care less, but they don't so the carriers don't push it.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-14 09:30 PM
  23. iN8ter's Avatar
    Carriers have no problem selling BIS plans today so evidence points in the other direction.


    #believeinfilm
    You have no evidence that they have "no problems" with BIS today so I'm dumbfounded how you can say the "evidence points in the other direction."

    Blackberry scrapped BIS from BB10 because it made no sense to keep BIS these days. They can probably have a toggle in the browser to compress data, similar to what Google and Microsoft does (using SPDY or proxy), but BIS is for the 90s and it has outlived its benefits in a ton of markets. There are better solutions these days.

    Yes, there are markets where the infrastructure is so bad that BIS may provide a benefit, but those are not markets where Blackberry is raking in cash, anyways. As those markets mature, and their data infrastructures become better, users will migrate off BIS so it is far from a reliable source of revenue. Markets like the US, UK, and others have pretty much given them a case study for that.
    04-14-14 10:24 PM
  24. iN8ter's Avatar
    What are you talking about? That article is from when Thor was in charge, carriers wanted the fees reduced and Thor scrapped them altogether on BB10. Plus for all we know the fees could've got reduced for BIS.

    At no point did carriers say scrap BIS.


    #believeinfilm
    I didn't know Thor was CEO for that long.

    You're wrong, you were proven wrong. Live with it. It's been well-known that carriers have been pressuring Blackberry to reduce the fees since they have been moving to capitalize off data services more than Traditional Cell and SMS services due to the proliferation of Messaging and VoIP applications.

    Paying Blackberry's fees were not a big deal when they were 40% marketshare and the carriers were still able to rake in a ton of cash from SMS/MMS and data use was so limited (Due to speeds, devices, media being lighter, etc.) that cheap Unlimited Data Plans were still sustainable (they were actually a gimmick back then, because hardly anyone could use over 2GB consistently unless they were tethering their house to their phone).

    Those days are over, and they've been over for quite a while now.

    Thor was not in charge for the development of BB10. BIS was taken out for technical reasons as well as for carrier pressure. For one, BIS sucks on consumption devices because it destroys things like image quality, internet speeds, etc. By the time 2011 rolled around, many people in markets like the US/UK/etc. were COMPLAINING about BIS because it was a user experience killer, not an enhancement. It's old tech that needed to go on modern equipment. There are other ways to save bandwidth, that are much better and don't take over your device the way BIS does...
    kbz1960 likes this.
    04-14-14 10:50 PM
  25. iN8ter's Avatar
    People seem go forget that developers vastly prefer BB10 over BBOS... app sales are greater even without the bigger population of users. Scrap BB10 and you'll have outrage and further damage to their image.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    From an app development point of view, BB OS7 is dead for all intents and purposes.
    04-14-14 10:52 PM
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