04-15-14 06:42 AM
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  1. Orange UK's Avatar
    The fact being is NO BIS subscriptions means BB10 onwards will never get BB back to where it once was for decades to come...most enterprise DO BES, consumers do BIS and BB is killing is consumer business off, its biting the hand that feeds its it through its most volatile period of existence.

    You don't FooK with your bread and butter, BB did, continues to do so by not reversing the ability to use BIS if someone *wants* to on BB10 products upwards, not dual booting BB10 hardware with Legacy OS again was a shift too much, BB10 hardware specs would be the Airbus A380 with Legacy OS until such time as BB10 was actually ready to market.

    Hardware wise PlayBook, Z/Q10 onwards to now you have all been beta testing BB10. NO BB handset due for market is leading in security or specs, and that BB handset needs to be out by the end of this year minimum HARDCORE.
    04-13-14 12:33 PM
  2. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    [...] Blackberry shouldn't release the phones on BBOS7 anymore, no matter how good/bad/important they are [...]
    Can't be avoided until BES12 is available.
    Most (big fleets) current BES5 users testified they will wait for BES12 before they consider alternatives (because they're satisfied), but in the meantime they don't want to manage 2 instances of BES (5 + 10). As simple as that.

    Re-production of BBOS7 devices (the exact same 9900 only where 9720 is not listed by carriers) will occur as a temporary/replacement measure, until the BB10 "Classic" is launched (unsurprisingly, simultaneously with BES12). After that, as of date, there's no plan to produce further BBOS device.

    So relax and enjoy both worlds until then (reminder : BBOS maintenance will last for years though).

    Dicussed here : http://forums.crackberry.com/news-ru...uction-922112/
    04-13-14 12:53 PM
  3. nabil114's Avatar
    From the current market conditions, one thing is pretty clear, one true enemy of BB10 is its own predecessor, BBOS7

    Blackberry shouldn't release the phones on BBOS7 anymore, no matter how good/bad/important they are, because, if they want to see BB10 succeed, they need to kill it's cheaper alternative. And instead, release a cheaper line of BB10 devices.

    Even though Legacy along with BIS generate huge revenue for Blackberry, but they need to understand that this only creates more and more confusion to a customer, and lowers down/slows growth of BB10 platform.
    Also, it leads to more misconceptions and people include Legacy's bad points into books of BB10, which gives BB10 a bad name.
    Hence, i think BB should officially announce the retirement of Legacy device as soon as the whole BB10 line(low-mid-top) is launched. It's never too late, people still love BB
    One leg in past, and one leg in future is not really a good idea, what's your opinion?
    I think their average selling price is at $277.69 right now. (BlackBerry Q4 2014 earnings analysis: long way from recovery | BGR) If they like Blackberry Z3 in emerging markets, it could easily replace the sales of BB OS 7.

    It depends on the make-up. (Bold, or Torch or others)
    04-13-14 01:06 PM
  4. sunny9900's Avatar
    OP: Legacy BBOS is the true enemy ? FOOL...BIS subscription is keeping your BB10 coding team and everyone at BB in salary and ALIVE.

    60 million BIS customers paying even 1 (chose the strongest currency overall) is 60 million a month incoming...BIS does not cost anywhere near a 10th of that to run worldwide.

    Seriously...BB10 has killed this company and continues to do so and you want BB10 only ?

    LOL, PMSL that's the best laugh of my day !
    You think Blackberry10 devices, on which the company has worked so hard, are being just given away to the market for free?
    Seriously, your only concern is generating revenue and nothing else? Nowadays no company can survive without innovation and apps, and you talk about selling a 2011 technology to customers. No updates after 7.1, same old crap, a buggy slow browser, no front cam either. Might as well use rocks and sticks. I really hope John Chen isn't thinking the same way you think, and has plans of slightly shifting BB to QNX and make BIS optional, you dolt.

    I wrote a bit about this topic here: Are BlackBerry devices so good that they're bad? | CrackBerry.com
    It's understandable if you don't agree. I'm certain we all would love to have a influence at what BlackBerry does from this point forward. Business will always be business. I'll be writing future editorials and try to tackle some of the pressing issues.
    Love your work sir. If you actually emphasize on What i've said in my first post, it simply says Legacy OS needs to be phased out as soon as BB10 gains traction by launching its full range of devices. BB10 is something which can actually stand face to face with other OSes like Android and iOS, Blackberry did so much and made it so competitive, but people inhere only pay attention to the Belt(which will arrive soon) and BIS. Everybody has hopes from this company, even CNET editor recently did a review about Q10, What more do they want?
    It's more like windows XP all over, but it's actually Windows7 which did wonders, because it was launched perfectly.
    But in case of Blackberry, BB10 got late to the party. But being late doesn't mean everything is over.
    Phasing out doesnt mean directly killing BBOS7 on a short notice, but announcing it's retirement when BB10 is in every range, along with Blackberry Classic. It's a sad thing that people don't want to move on, because 'it just werks'.
    Can't be avoided until BES12 is available.
    Most (big fleets) current BES5 users testified they will wait for BES12 before they consider alternatives (because they're satisfied), but in the meantime they don't want to manage 2 instances of BES (5 + 10). As simple as that.

    Re-production of BBOS7 devices (the exact same 9900 only where 9720 is not listed by carriers) will occur as a temporary/replacement measure, until the BB10 "Classic" is launched (unsurprisingly, simultaneously with BES12). After that, as of date, there's no plan to produce further BBOS device.

    So relax and enjoy both worlds until then (reminder : BBOS maintenance will last for years though).

    Dicussed here : http://forums.crackberry.com/news-ru...uction-922112/
    Thanks for your clarifications sir

    There's still no pleasing for some people, when on OS7, they ask for advanced OS
    When they get one, they refuse to move on
    04-13-14 01:33 PM
  5. parryberry's Avatar
    This topic again? As long as legacy devices sell at a profit or BB10 takes off, there is no need to end the legacy devices. Also, for me OS7 on the 9720 has been a vast improvement from the 9300. Only done 2 battery pulls since september. OS7 is a lot better than is protrayed here.
    acovey likes this.
    04-13-14 01:53 PM
  6. tagumcity's Avatar
    Current "legacy" sales are justified by the receipts generated, especially in a market driven worldwide economy. These devices are "not in the way" of BB10 product line. Blackberry devices last a very long time because of the build quality of the hardware and the maturity of the software.
    acovey and mamasan47 like this.
    04-13-14 01:53 PM
  7. sunny9900's Avatar
    Thank you and I agree. The way they execute the transition though will be crucial. I'll address some of this in the upcoming vocast in NYC.
    Yes, it'll be. But i don't think shifting to latest devices will be a challenging task. 'Most' of the Legacy Blackberry users aren't dinosaurs and may adapt the changes pretty quick. Majority people still don't know about the features of BB10, and think it's just like any other Android/iOS device, then how can we expect them to adapt something 'new', thanks to no advertising. But things will change soon, i believe

    Current "legacy" sales are justified by the receipts generated, especially in a market driven worldwide economy. These devices are "not in the way" of BB10 product line. Blackberry devices last a very long time because of the build quality of the hardware and the maturity of the software.
    Legacy sells because it's cheap, as low as 60$, and does what people need to do, sometimes with a lot of problems. that's not innovative.

    Even windows xp had potential to generate money, now. As it does what people needs to do, still it was given the much needed retirement, because limits were reached.
    MS realized Windows7 and 8 are the ones which can actually stand among the top OSes, and Windows XP was getting outdated, and was lowering credibility of MS
    04-13-14 02:01 PM
  8. acovey's Avatar
    you just don't get it, do you?
    A company, in order to move forward, needs to release new stuff. Not to re-release old stuff, that just depicts desperation, nothing else
    NO, you don;t get it. Blackberry is selling BBOS to customers who have wanted it AND selling BB10 phones to other customers.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    04-13-14 02:36 PM
  9. Soulstream's Avatar
    Let's say that they release a new Legacy device. NEW as in new design and everything, not just manufacturing an old model. And then they price it just as high as the BB10 models. Do you think it will still sell twice as more as BB10? I don't think so. I think 70% of the reason that legacy devices sell more is the price.
    04-13-14 02:45 PM
  10. sunny9900's Avatar
    Let's say that they release a new Legacy device. NEW as in new design and everything, not just manufacturing an old model. And then they price it just as high as the BB10 models. Do you think it will still sell twice as more as BB10? I don't think so. I think 70% of the reason that legacy devices sell more is the price.
    Exactly my point
    04-13-14 02:56 PM
  11. ChainPunch's Avatar
    BB7 devices will go away once blackberry provides the same feature set from BES5/BBOS with BES12/BB10 devices. From my understanding, based on previous comments, that push is going to happen sometime in 2015.

    I think at some point, blackberry is going to have to cut off BB7 users and at the point that they must have a plan in place to lessen the financial blow of switching to BES12/BB10 for their users.
    04-13-14 03:23 PM
  12. Orange UK's Avatar
    You think Blackberry10 devices, on which the company has worked so hard, are being just given away to the market for free?


    Seriously, your only concern is generating revenue and nothing else? Nowadays no company can survive without innovation and apps, and you talk about selling a 2011 technology to customers.

    No updates after 7.1, same old crap, a buggy slow browser, no front cam either. Might as well use rocks and sticks. I really hope John Chen isn't thinking the same way you think, and has plans of slightly shifting BB to QNX and make BIS optional, you dolt.

    They are being almost given away to build market share again, FACT.

    BIS is way older than 2011, but its SECURE and just needs upgrading to compression values like any browser of even 2011 let alone 2014.


    All other OS could be slightly upgraded & dual boot under BB8 branding on BB10 devices WITH much needed REVENUE until BB12 actually is solid, until then BB continues to transition internally and externally. A cut down BB10 should be BB9 for PlayBook. You look after your consumers THEY look after you....simple, as is...


    EVERY CEO/CFO "is generating revenue and nothing else"...


    You CANT confuse & s1it on your loyal pro/consumers and expect to keep market share and loyalty. BB has and needs to reel itself into reality about how to implement everything it done great before and build on it to get to where it was before or continue losing incoming revenue before BB12 even thinks about arriving fully baked.
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-13-14 03:46 PM
  13. lnichols's Avatar
    The fact being is NO BIS subscriptions means BB10 onwards will never get BB back to where it once was for decades to come...most enterprise DO BES, consumers do BIS and BB is killing is consumer business off, its biting the hand that feeds its it through its most volatile period of existence.

    You don't FooK with your bread and butter, BB did, continues to do so by not reversing the ability to use BIS if someone *wants* to on BB10 products upwards, not dual booting BB10 hardware with Legacy OS again was a shift too much, BB10 hardware specs would be the Airbus A380 with Legacy OS until such time as BB10 was actually ready to market.

    Hardware wise PlayBook, Z/Q10 onwards to now you have all been beta testing BB10. NO BB handset due for market is leading in security or specs, and that BB handset needs to be out by the end of this year minimum HARDCORE.
    The problem is that the BIS business model is not sustainable. It basically is either profit sharing with a carrier if they include it in the cost with the data plans, or it is an extra fee if the carrier decides to pass it on to the customer.

    FACT: BlackBerry has been under pressure by the carriers to reduce or eliminate the fees for BUS (we know this from conference calls).

    FACT: Carriers in developed markets would rather sell a device that they don't have to share any profits with anyone, and that uses data that they are charging for and the the new networks provide access to greater quantities of.

    The BIS die hards are only looking at it from the end user and service revenue to BlackBerry perspective, and are completely ignoring the fact that the carriers no longer want to support the BIS infrastructure, nor do they want to pay BlackBerry up to $5 per month per BIS customer, especially when Apple and Samsung are selling devices that that they don't have to share service profits with, and that both Apple and Samsung are advertising heavily for. You will see more and more carriers globally trying to offload BIS customers onto platforms that they don't have to pay BlackBerry a dime for because they too have shareholders to answer to and have to maximize profits. Once they build out a network with huge capacity, BIS provides the carrier zero value add and starts costing them money in additional support costs (dedicated BlackBerry support teams).

    Posted via CB10
    04-13-14 03:59 PM
  14. Rootbrian's Avatar
    Yes, it'll be. But i don't think shifting to latest devices will be a challenging task. 'Most' of the Legacy Blackberry users aren't dinosaurs and may adapt the changes pretty quick. Majority people still don't know about the features of BB10, and think it's just like any other Android/iOS device, then how can we expect them to adapt something 'new', thanks to no advertising. But things will change soon, i believe


    Legacy sells because it's cheap, as low as 60$, and does what people need to do, sometimes with a lot of problems. that's not innovative.

    Even windows xp had potential to generate money, now. As it does what people needs to do, still it was given the much needed retirement, because limits were reached.
    MS realized Windows7 and 8 are the ones which can actually stand among the top OSes, and Windows XP was getting outdated, and was lowering credibility of MS
    FYI:
    Windows XP is 5.1.xxxx
    Windows Vista is 6.0.xxxx
    Windows 7 is 6.2.xxxx
    Windows 8/8.1 is 6.3.9600.

    So microsoft is still on windows 6.x, they haven't even reached windows 7.0 at all yet, due to following the windows NT kernel. So saying it's higher than the actual version number, it seems it confuses the customer more than often. Don't believe me? Click Start, Run. (or hit Windows key + R), type in WINVER and hit enter.

    I was a windows user until I got sick of it and moved to linux mint 13 LTS. It might not be perfect, but it works damn better and I don't need to buy new hardware until something stops physically working.

    Posted via CrackBerry 10 (CB10) application using my BlackBerry Q10.
    stlabrat likes this.
    04-13-14 04:01 PM
  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    The problem is that the BIS business model is not sustainable. It basically is either profit sharing with a carrier if they include it in the cost with the data plans, or it is an extra fee if the carrier decides to pass it on to the customer.

    FACT: BlackBerry has been under pressure by the carriers to reduce or eliminate the fees for BUS (we know this from conference calls).

    FACT: Carriers in developed markets would rather sell a device that they don't have to share any profits with anyone, and that uses data that they are charging for and the the new networks provide access to greater quantities of.

    The BIS die hards are only looking at it from the end user and service revenue to BlackBerry perspective, and are completely ignoring the fact that the carriers no longer want to support the BIS infrastructure, nor do they want to pay BlackBerry up to $5 per month per BIS customer, especially when Apple and Samsung are selling devices that that they don't have to share service profits with, and that both Apple and Samsung are advertising heavily for. You will see more and more carriers globally trying to offload BIS customers onto platforms that they don't have to pay BlackBerry a dime for because they too have shareholders to answer to and have to maximize profits. Once they build out a network with huge capacity, BIS provides the carrier zero value add and starts costing them money in additional support costs (dedicated BlackBerry support teams).

    Posted via CB10
    Proof for all these facts? I see UK carriers dropping BB10 and keeping Legacy BIS, kind of going against your theory.


    #believeinfilm
    Orange UK likes this.
    04-13-14 04:19 PM
  16. Orange UK's Avatar
    Concurrently, a BIS device sold at cost is generating more BB profit through BIS than the marked down wholesale & retail price BB10 devices are to gain market share in the hope of a Walmart structure of shift at 5% profit.

    Shift a BBOS BIS at 5% (or 0%) handset profit and BIS makes the cash, now how do you survive on BB10 with 5% FULL revenue, you don't you go bankrupt slowly to the wall over 6/7 years (5 are already up)

    Q. If I want to *choose* BIS on BB10 or a dual boot BBOS(8^)/BB10 device, why would BB shoot itself in the groin by denying my incoming revenue ESP at a time the company is not far off from folding (in consideration to how long BB has existed) ?


    A. Management and the CEO's (Chen included) have no idea how to transition the company and its products without enhilating its current user base.

    At todays running costs sales minus BIS is costing BB via BB10 devices cash quarter on quarter on quarter - simple - no one can deny that Chen has stated the 60 million active subscriptions are his main revenue source.

    BB will be sold by administration within 2 years. BIS will sell for top dollar by the administrator if BB is sold in parts - because they will see what BB couldnt. Take BIS/BES as software company & some Chinese company will pay a good price for the handsets and logo rights.

    NEVER eradicate your top revenue grossing products....


    Even Amazon bought LoveFilm back inhouse...it made a boo boo, but Amazon could afford to do so.


    BB cannot afford to block BIS from any BB device in the next two years, its BB's only and main incoming revenue leaving PROFIT after costs - to survive. And that's why Chen is doing a BOLD run...2 more years of BIS subscriptions, when reality is if a customer wants BIS on BB10 let them have it and take the cash because both company and consumer need that for a BB survival.

    You only change a scratched vinyl record or CD, not a functioning one. BB seem to have stepped back to 8 track in management decisions, they still don't have a strong CEO or management team.


    You know who end up with some or ALL buying parts of BB ? Chen's ex employer, like Thornyass the CEO position is all about what 'I' can get out the deal.

    Conflict of interest don't just happen when a VP skips off to the competition with a Apple in his hand people...the guy has protected his interests, he knows inside BB will fail, he will be the first of many top men to leave in the next two years...administration does not pay a mortgage and kids.
    04-13-14 04:23 PM
  17. qwerty4ever's Avatar
    I agree. Take that stuff off the market. Let it die already.

    I do like how someone is going to Android because they don't want to touch the screen. Makes sense to me.
    The irony is palpable.

    Posted via CB10 on BlackBerry Q5
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    04-13-14 04:34 PM
  18. Skatophilia's Avatar
    I honestly don't see the problem with having both, I mean yes BlackBerry needs to find a way to earn more money with their BB10 phones but I think that it will come in time. If people are happy using a Legacy phone, regardless it is a Blackberry
    riss89 likes this.
    04-13-14 04:52 PM
  19. bhrgvr's Avatar
    If there's already a flagship car in the market, and the company launches another equivalent car and does almost 0 advertising about it, how do you expect it to sell? And why people will prefer the newer one when they have reliability and satisfaction from the previous one.
    That's what (i've assumed) has happened to BB10, and BBOS7(like the earlier flagship) has eaten up its market share.
    When you launch something, you make it better and let people know about it(which blackberry didn't)

    Also, the transition shouldn't be gradual, as not much time is left, soon Android's new version, iOS8 along with iPhone6, etc etc will be launched, and Blackberry needs to get it's act together as soon as possible
    Oh... well we all know that the carriers screwed BlackBerry big time and apart from that BlackBerry screwed itself too... when it had the money and opportunities it did not market and made a sick ad for the product only to be made fun of.

    Posted via CB10
    04-13-14 05:13 PM
  20. dracolnyte's Avatar
    the truth of the fact is, it is BB10 the one making the company lose money. look at that 1B inventory write down from all those unsold Z10/Q10s. if anything they should scrap BB10 patents/OS and sell it off to competitor while keeping BBOS niche to corporate and emerging markets
    riss89 likes this.
    04-13-14 05:20 PM
  21. nabil114's Avatar
    OS7 is like Windows XP. It does everything most users need it to do, but it is an archaic piece of technology. I think if Microsoft still sold Windows XP, a lot of users would still buy it. But as a tech company, you can't just look for cash, but also evolution.
    Actually I like Windows XP because Windows Vista was horrible. It is not fair comparison because Vista crashes. In terms of usability it was flashy UI nothing you could not do in Windows XP. They did not add the experience in terms of features.
    04-13-14 05:51 PM
  22. nabil114's Avatar
    Concurrently, a BIS device sold at cost is generating more BB profit through BIS than the marked down wholesale & retail price BB10 devices are to gain market share in the hope of a Walmart structure of shift at 5% profit.

    Shift a BBOS BIS at 5% (or 0%) handset profit and BIS makes the cash, now how do you survive on BB10 with 5% FULL revenue, you don't you go bankrupt slowly to the wall over 6/7 years (5 are already up)

    Q. If I want to *choose* BIS on BB10 or a dual boot BBOS(8^)/BB10 device, why would BB shoot itself in the groin by denying my incoming revenue ESP at a time the company is not far off from folding (in consideration to how long BB has existed) ?


    A. Management and the CEO's (Chen included) have no idea how to transition the company and its products without enhilating its current user base.

    At todays running costs sales minus BIS is costing BB via BB10 devices cash quarter on quarter on quarter - simple - no one can deny that Chen has stated the 60 million active subscriptions are his main revenue source.

    BB will be sold by administration within 2 years. BIS will sell for top dollar by the administrator if BB is sold in parts - because they will see what BB couldnt. Take BIS/BES as software company & some Chinese company will pay a good price for the handsets and logo rights.

    NEVER eradicate your top revenue grossing products....


    Even Amazon bought LoveFilm back inhouse...it made a boo boo, but Amazon could afford to do so.


    BB cannot afford to block BIS from any BB device in the next two years, its BB's only and main incoming revenue leaving PROFIT after costs - to survive. And that's why Chen is doing a BOLD run...2 more years of BIS subscriptions, when reality is if a customer wants BIS on BB10 let them have it and take the cash because both company and consumer need that for a BB survival.

    You only change a scratched vinyl record or CD, not a functioning one. BB seem to have stepped back to 8 track in management decisions, they still don't have a strong CEO or management team.


    You know who end up with some or ALL buying parts of BB ? Chen's ex employer, like Thornyass the CEO position is all about what 'I' can get out the deal.

    Conflict of interest don't just happen when a VP skips off to the competition with a Apple in his hand people...the guy has protected his interests, he knows inside BB will fail, he will be the first of many top men to leave in the next two years...administration does not pay a mortgage and kids.
    In terms of BIS service, if you bought a Blackberry device you had BIS service. The question is did it add any value to it. I have done audits on real estate agents where they are charged BIS fees in their bills. If you think about the views of the carriers, Blackberry is taking part of the data revenue and they have to pay full price for the phones. They did not like it because iPhone and Android phones did not take data revenue. They paid the phone price. Basically they had to move to structure data revenue carriers get is for paying the full price for the phones and their network costs.
    04-13-14 05:59 PM
  23. lnichols's Avatar
    Proof for all these facts? I see UK carriers dropping BB10 and keeping Legacy BIS, kind of going against your theory.


    #believeinfilm
    Did you not read? I said where they were. Listen to the conference calls before BB10 launched where they stated that service revenues were under pressure.

    Posted via CB10
    04-13-14 07:36 PM
  24. Ray III's Avatar
    OS7 is like Windows XP. It does everything most users need it to do, but it is an archaic piece of technology. I think if Microsoft still sold Windows XP, a lot of users would still buy it. But as a tech company, you can't just look for cash, but also evolution.
    And before abandoning XP, Microsoft incorporated an XP user interface in Windows 8 so the children can play with those panes and the business people can have their desktop.

    That is what needs to happen in BB10.
    04-13-14 07:42 PM
  25. PowderJockey's Avatar
    No swiping on an iPhone, no swiping on a Android. Just removed a button.
    04-13-14 08:56 PM
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