02-14-14 09:26 AM
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  1. lnichols's Avatar
    I find it hard to understand how you've used BB7 and now BB10 and not know basic stuff like BB10 can't use BIS and come back with screenshots where you ask your mates about it to prove it. I mean come on, It's very basic stuff.

    I've always said that many many people never bothered to learn BBOS properly but when they move to another platform they're suddenly experts.

    You've made that claim in a couple of threads at least.
    Actually BB10 does use BIS and the NOC for easier email setup, BlackBerry World, etc., according to BlackBerry.

    http://mobility.ng/understanding-the...s-controversy/

    Since then, BlackBerry officials have come out to say that it isn?t true that BIS won?t be available on BlackBerry 10. They have made it clear that BIS works on BB10 devices, but is restricted to BlackBerry-specific services like BBM (BlackBerry Messenger), but not to web browsing, email (even BlackBerry.net email accounts are not available on BB10) and other generic apps. If you understood that clearly, you would know that this makes no difference.
    Also as with the PlayBook, which BlackBerry stated used BIS too, BIS is being used to help setup the email and calendar accounts easier on the BB10 devices. Is it the same level of BIS service that BBOS had? No, but it is using the same infrastructure and likely the same servers. This is why when the BlackBerry symbol doesn't show up, some services don't work on BB10, but the device isn't crippled when this happens.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by lnichols; 02-13-14 at 02:19 PM.
    02-13-14 02:09 PM
  2. xanadome's Avatar
    1) I don't know how it got to debating my previous device ownership, I've shown how it's neither necessary nor relevant as you've said yourself.

    Also if BelfastDispatcher cared to read my posts in their entirety (both in this thread and the recently stopped (why legacy outselling BB10 thread) he would know that I have used a few legacy devices from about BB5 to BB7 but again the whole 'BIS' thing was more about not having BIS on a BB10 and this knowing the limitations than lack of XP of BB7.

    But BD has in a previous thread almost bullied someone using the same method of not having had BB7 Experience and disregarded their valid points on that basis (even thought they had in fact had BB7 XP),yet he feels qualified that having used Z10 and Q10 briefly, he is well qualified to talk about BB10

    2) I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just to share my opinion. Backed up ofcourse (a concept that certain individuals seem to find difficult to grasp)

    3) Futile doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about it, the popularity here has revealed a lot of things. And personally I've learnt some things, ofcourse there are heated moments etc but that's what happens when people get together and can hide behind 1s and 0s lol
    You said wow, sorry, if I startled and perplexed you. I said I respect your opinion, honest! :-).

    Maybe I might go a bit further this time and attempt to offer what "I think" might be happening (as I really cannot tell anybody's mind), but please keep in mind that this is strictly my personal opinion, and I am not challenging anybody.

    1. One of the factors that thread of this nature tends to get hot (I do not know if this one is getting hot) is because one side or another feels criticized of their choice of device, and get defensive.

    2. "I think" the reason why BD was adamant in asking if you had ever used any of the legacies was because he thought (again, I suspect) that people would have a hard time to understand why anybody would still stick to those "old" legacies, let alone anybody who never really used them (I do not know if you did in any length of time), which I think is true. I have been an Apple user (not just iPhone) for a long time, and iPhone was my default and obligatory choice without really many reasons, except I was already deep into Apple's ecosystem. Those days, I always regarded BB as so archaic (keyboard etc, LOL) and must be grandpa/grandma's choice. One day, I was forced to pick another phone in a pinch, and it was a BB (9700 to be precise, and quickly to 9780, then to 9900). In due course, I discovered certain attractions to the BB device.

    3. RIM those days were always behind in their hardware spec, 1 or 2 generations behind competitions, probably because they were sitting on the laurel of success, and their text basis applications did not really require high specs (speculation). Their browsers were particularly behind. Nevertheless, BBs had long been the choice of enterprises, including many of the Fortune 500 companies and government types in the world. That was what was keeping RIM afloat. What are those elements, you ask. Well, I am not an expert and cannot pretend that I know everything, but it was probably because BBs were simple, efficient, no-nonsence communications devices that business in general, & security, and some consumers also preferred them.

    4. But when BB10 appeared, those people thought that these advantages were largely lost, that has been the cause of these uproars everywhere.

    5. However, those subtle points are hard to understand unless you use legacies for some extended time, those who came from other platforms to buy BB10s, or those using Curve etc and jump to BB10s because of its faster browsers and other modern goodies would never understand those points. Even those who have been using legacies for a long time do not understand those legacy holdouts, particularly after the BB10, probably because their usage patterns are different. To each his/her own :-). I am sure you know all these, and I must be preaching to the choirs, so I have to stop here, but home screen keyboard shortcuts, trackpad and other hard buttons to make text manipulation easier, one thumb operation, pickup/hangup hard buttons, and most importantly, those that are called "little moments of delight" are very important to legacy holdouts, and particularly the enterprise crowd. Legacies' PIM and other core functionalities are well thought out, and built up over RIM's years of experience, taking into considerations the user feedback.
    When BB10 came out, legacy holdouts were appalled, thinking all advantages of BB were lost, which was probably true, as it was reflected on the sales results. BBRY is now attempting to catch up, adding lost features. And as BD said, a new legacy style device might be in the offering, who knows?

    Anyway, the point is, the legacies are old and archaic, but that fact itself is the key in understanding why so many are still hanging onto the legacies, particularly Bolds.

    I think BD sensed that you did not really have any extensive experiences in using the legacies (I do not know if its true), thus coming to his questioning. And because of the reasons I suspect in above, I just thought that this is another repeat of futile discussion. But provided that neither side gets defensive, it's going to be an interesting exchange.
    But you know, the OP's original post was about his prediction about a legacy-like device coming out soon (possibly and hopefully to me), and knowing his previous prediction (which he said was based on some inside info) was not too far from the reality (it ended up in 9720 though), I am curious to know what he has to say.
    02-13-14 02:11 PM
  3. tinochiko's Avatar
    You said wow, sorry, if I startled and perplexed you. I said I respect your opinion, honest! :-).

    Maybe I might go a bit further this time and attempt to offer what "I think" might be happening (as I really cannot tell anybody's mind), but please keep in mind that this is strictly my personal opinion, and I am not challenging anybody.

    1. One of the factors that thread of this nature tends to get hot (I do not know if this one is getting hot) is because one side or another feels criticized of their choice of device, and get defensive.

    2. "I think" the reason why BD was adamant in asking if you had ever used any of the legacies was because he thought (again, I suspect) that people would have a hard time to understand why anybody would still stick to those "old" legacies, let alone anybody who never really used them (I do not know if you did in any length of time), which I think is true. I have been an Apple user (not just iPhone) for a long time, and iPhone was my default and obligatory choice without really many reasons, except I was already deep into Apple's ecosystem. Those days, I always regarded BB as so archaic (keyboard etc, LOL) and must be grandpa/grandma's choice. One day, I was forced to pick another phone in a pinch, and it was a BB (9700 to be precise, and quickly to 9780, then to 9900). In due course, I discovered certain attractions to the BB device.

    3. RIM those days were always behind in their hardware spec, 1 or 2 generations behind competitions, probably because they were sitting on the laurel of success, and their text basis applications did not really require high specs (speculation). Their browsers were particularly behind. Nevertheless, BBs had long been the choice of enterprises, including many of the Fortune 500 companies and government types in the world. That was what was keeping RIM afloat. What are those elements, you ask. Well, I am not an expert and cannot pretend that I know everything, but it was probably because BBs were simple, efficient, no-nonsence communications devices that business in general, & security, and some consumers also preferred them.

    4. But when BB10 appeared, those people thought that these advantages were largely lost, that has been the cause of these uproars everywhere.

    5. However, those subtle points are hard to understand unless you use legacies for some extended time, those who came from other platforms to buy BB10s, or those using Curve etc and jump to BB10s because of its faster browsers and other modern goodies would never understand those points. Even those who have been using legacies for a long time do not understand those legacy holdouts, particularly after the BB10, probably because their usage patterns are different. To each his/her own :-). I am sure you know all these, and I must be preaching to the choirs, so I have to stop here, but home screen keyboard shortcuts, trackpad and other hard buttons to make text manipulation easier, one thumb operation, pickup/hangup hard buttons, and most importantly, those that are called "little moments of delight" are very important to legacy holdouts, and particularly the enterprise crowd. Legacies' PIM and other core functionalities are well thought out, and built up over RIM's years of experience, taking into considerations the user feedback.
    When BB10 came out, legacy holdouts were appalled, thinking all advantages of BB were lost, which was probably true, as it was reflected on the sales results. BBRY is now attempting to catch up, adding lost features. And as BD said, a new legacy style device might be in the offering, who knows?

    Anyway, the point is, the legacies are old and archaic, but that fact itself is the key in understanding why so many are still hanging onto the legacies, particularly Bolds.

    I think BD sensed that you did not really have any extensive experiences in using the legacies (I do not know if its true), thus coming to his questioning. And because of the reasons I suspect in above, I just thought that this is another repeat of futile discussion. But provided that neither side gets defensive, it's going to be an interesting exchange.
    But you know, the OP's original post was about his prediction about a legacy-like device coming out soon (possibly and hopefully to me), and knowing his previous prediction (which he said was based on some inside info) was not too far from the reality (it ended up in 9720 though), I am curious to know what he has to say.
    Just to be clear I appreciate the awesomeness of BB7 and have said so several times before, although in the other thread i did mention that to the generic user, BB10 was much better than BB7 and exactly the point you're making that only users with extensive knowledge of BB7 would even recognise missing features..

    Although BelfastDispatcher has actually claimed that he represents the generic user but anyway..

    Thank you, I respect your points,

    My position is less that BB7 wasn't/isnt a useful device but rather it cannot be Blackberry's forefront:

    1) it sells mostly for prize rather than the features and sells less and less at even lower prices, thats no longer term future, if value is added back to the BlackBerry brand through BB10, they can hold their initial prices well with Jakarta at the low end for customers with a lower budget in mind


    2) for reasons that have been discussed and can be found a little bit here and in more detail on the thread aforementioned (BB7 outselling BB10) Blackberry is looking to phase out BIS

    3) there are a lot more reasons but they've been repeated throughout the thread..

    The only thing is to wait and see i guess,

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    02-13-14 02:28 PM
  4. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Actually BB10 does use BIS and the NOC for easier email setup, BlackBerry World, etc., according to BlackBerry.

    http://mobility.ng/understanding-the...s-controversy/



    Also as with the PlayBook, which BlackBerry stated used BIS too, BIS is being used to help setup the email and calendar accounts easier on the BB10 devices. Is it the same level of BIS service that BBOS had? No, but it is using the same infrastructure and likely the same servers. This is why when the BlackBerry symbol doesn't show up, some services don't work on BB10, but the device isn't crippled when this happens.

    Posted via CB10
    While they do use the NOCs, after all BBM is powered by the NOCs, they definitely don't use the BIS ie the blackberry's own APN or any of the attached services.


    Let's not make arguments just for the sake of it, BIS and NOC are two different things.




    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-13-14 02:30 PM
  5. birdman_38's Avatar
    Of course, why would the carriers want to pay the BIS fees if the BB10 devices don't use it.
    Which seriously goes against your theory that legacy will gain steam. Carriers hold much power in determining any future OS 7 offerings.
    02-13-14 02:34 PM
  6. aha's Avatar
    Why would you want a device that you have to do a 4min reboot on every app installation or update to come back?

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.1925+1926 radio
    02-13-14 02:40 PM
  7. xanadome's Avatar
    My position is less that BB7 wasn't/isnt a useful device but rather it cannot be Blackberry's forefront:
    This, I fully agree with you.
    I was also looking forward to what I thought was a huge upgrade to those archaic legacies (BBRY hyped it... as usual.... ), so I bought a Q10 as soon as it came out, but did not think it was mature enough. I did say at the time (about a year ago), I would revisit it when it has become more mature, as I really thought BBRY pushed BB10 out half-baked.
    That's why I have been watching CB closely, and have a feeling that, with the 10.2.1, it might be a time to consider it. Hey, I always need the latest and the greatest toy :-). I never intended to hang onto something too "old" for too long, if time has lapsed too much. Actually, I was thinking about going back to my iPhone as a daily driver, not as a backup/supplement.
    OTOH, I too was beginning to feel that Chen & Co., understood the problem BBRY was facing after the Bb10, and would be doing something about it, and soon.
    So, let's hope that there may be more tangible progress soon.

    Again, I do agree that legacy is not the future. It is almost in a discontinued status.
    But in a way, BD's prediction crosses paths of everyone, but just in a bit different way. If his prediction is true, there might be two different product lines, BB10 and whatever device with the legacy like interface (that could be on the BB10 platform, who know?), that could be a derivative of the intended enterprise device.
    tinochiko likes this.
    02-13-14 02:42 PM
  8. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Which seriously goes against your theory that legacy will gain steam. Carriers hold much power in determining any future OS 7 offerings.
    I don't see the connection. BB10 does not have to be on a BiS plan, BBOS devices do, plain and simple.

    BIS comes attached with some cost for carriers but also some benefits, less strain on the network, useable devices in places where their network is not so good etc. If the device doesn't come with the benefits why should they continue to pay the fees?






    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-13-14 02:48 PM
  9. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    I have Dropbox installed in my 9900, and it's not a website on the home screen. I do not immediately remember how I downloaded it, but I learned how via CB thread.
    It works just fine, and fast enough.
    The benefit of having it integrated with BBM is that it makes it easy to share large files without having to send them phone to phone.

    Personally I think it's a brilliant idea.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome Z30 2B6927F7
    02-13-14 02:49 PM
  10. aha's Avatar
    Maintaining two competing product lines in a company that loses money and cuts every penny of the cost they can find? Riiiiiight.

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.1925+1926 radio
    02-13-14 02:51 PM
  11. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    The benefit of having it integrated with BBM is that it makes it easy to share large files without having to send them phone to phone.

    Personally I think it's a brilliant idea.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome Z30 2B6927F7
    You can already do this with Dropbox for BB7, this was one of my annoyances with BB10 Dropbox app, it shares the actual files instead of the link to the file.

    Been there from the beginning.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-13-14 02:52 PM
  12. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Maintaining two competing product lines in a company that loses money and cuts every penny of the cost they can find? Riiiiiight.

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.1925+1926 radio
    Does it matter as long the cash goes to BlackBerry? I don't think they're really competing anyway.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-13-14 02:56 PM
  13. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I wish this thread could stay on track. Is there any evidence that BlackBerry is still manufacturing BBOS phones or are they just selling off their inventory that was over produced?
    02-13-14 02:58 PM
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I wish this thread could stay on track. Is there any evidence that BlackBerry is still manufacturing BBOS phones or are they just selling off their inventory that was over produced?
    Hello, forgot already about the 9720? of course they still manufacture BBOS devices.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-13-14 03:00 PM
  15. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Hello, forgot already about the 9720? of course they still manufacture BBOS devices.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Hello to you too.

    Just because you can find them in various places to buy does not mean that they still manufacture the phone today. You can still buy a new slider on Amazon.

    Troy Tiscareno has said that they are not currently manufacturing any phones but just selling inventory. I am just wondering because if that is the case would they fire up a new BBOS production line? I think that going forward they will make the Z30 and perhaps the Q5,Q10, Q30 and the Jakarta. I think BB is counting on the Jakarta heavily to replace all the BBOS phones .

    On their Canadian website, Blackberry only lists the 9790 and the 9320 for sale. It varies from country to country. I am not saying you are wrong but I do not see any "proof of BBOS life".
    02-13-14 03:07 PM
  16. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Hello to you too.

    Just because you can find them in various places to buy does not mean that they still manufacture the phone today. You can still buy a new slider on Amazon.

    Troy Tiscareno has said that they are not currently manufacturing any phones but selling inventory. I am just wondering if that is the case.
    I'm sure that's the case with older BBOS devices but the 9720 is too new, only a few months old.

    Edit, my "hello" was a joke btw, I hope it didn't cause offence.

    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-13-14 03:09 PM
  17. aha's Avatar
    Does it matter as long the cash goes to BlackBerry? I don't think they're really competing anyway.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Of course it competes with each other. Every bbos phone sold is potentially a loss of a bb 10 phone sale.

    And to support both product lines you need to have two teams of staff, operates in parallel on pretty much every thing.

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.1925+1926 radio
    02-13-14 03:14 PM
  18. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Of course it competes with each other. Every bbos phone sold is potentially a loss of a bb 10 phone sale.

    And to support both product lines you need to have two teams of staff, operates in parallel on pretty much every thing.

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.1925+1926 radio
    It's a false competition, BlackBerry needs to sell every device they can at the moment.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-13-14 03:19 PM
  19. aha's Avatar
    Not really.

    If the cost of making and supporting a device is higher than its selling price, then this device should be dropped.

    If a product line is seen as old technology and has been hurting the brand for long time, then it should be canned too even if it seems to be making money at operation level. Because the profit from the product line would not compensate the loss of brand value.

    The future is BlackBerry 10, not BBOS.

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.1925+1926 radio
    02-13-14 03:37 PM
  20. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Not really.

    If the cost of making and supporting a device is higher than its selling price, then this device should be dropped.

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.1925+1926 radio
    You do realise you just described BB10 devices?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    JeepBB likes this.
    02-13-14 03:41 PM
  21. cjcampbell's Avatar
    You do realise you just described BB10 devices?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Hence their partnership with Foxconn.
    02-13-14 04:16 PM
  22. lnichols's Avatar
    You do realise you just described BB10 devices?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    The issue is that you are purely looking at the benefits to the end user with BBOS, while ignoring the disadvantages to BlackBerry itself. BBOS may use less data at the phone, but because the NOC has to handle all of the email processing, Web proxying, etc, that BB10 doesn't need, BlackBerry has to have much more computing power and bandwidth at the NOC to support the BBOS devices. This in turn means more real estate, more HVAC, more costs etc. to BlackBerry. Data Centers are extremely expensive to operate and/or lease space at. Plus because of the way BBOS interacted with the NOC, many countries want a NOCs setup in their own countries for surveillance purposes which also increases costs. Since BB10 does more on the handset, it means that they can start scaling back on NOC resources over time as the transition to BB10 continues and the BBID base declines.

    Posted via CB10
    02-13-14 05:01 PM
  23. nnik's Avatar
    I'm on BBOS and I've been with Sprint ten years. If Sprint stops servicing my BIS BlackBerry, sure I'll get a Q10. I will also, out of spite, drop Sprint like a used rubber and make sure my new Q10 will work on T-Mobile. I might even consider a smaller, compatible carrier like Simple Mobile.
    you may want to inform yourself about tmo's anti- blackberry advertising campaign

    .
    02-13-14 05:07 PM
  24. lnichols's Avatar
    you may want to inform yourself about tmo's anti- blackberry advertising campaign

    .
    What campaign is this. I haven't seen anything from T-Mobile that says don't buy a BlackBerry. They don't promote it, but they don't have ads that say don't buy it. In fact they are the only carrier now offering cloud based BES.

    Posted via CB10
    02-13-14 05:27 PM
  25. nnik's Avatar
    and at the same time targeting BlackBerry users to buy iBomb 5s

    .
    jupiter8 likes this.
    02-13-14 05:47 PM
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