[Ghostnyc]

Looking for feedback/comments on Mike Lazaridis recent comments concerning bandwidth.

"Manufacturers had better start building more efficient applications and more efficient services. There is no real way to get around this."

"If we don't start conserving that bandwidth, in the next few years we are going to run into a capacity crunch. You are already experiencing the capacity crunch in the United States."

"That is pretty fundamental to a carrier as that means you can have three paying Blackberry browsing customers for every one other customer."

"That has a huge advantage for the carriers if you think about the many billions of dollars the carriers have invested over the last five years in spectrum auctions and infrastructure rollouts."

More details can be found at

-The Economic Times

- Gizmodo

[Laura Knotek]

RIM CEO pulls an AT&T: “We need to conserve bandwidth”

[infamyx]

That might mean a damn if carriers didn't market phones with unlimited data. If there ever came a day when we pay by the GB then this would be a real reason to be concerned about bandwidth.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[DenverRalphy]

That might mean a damn if carriers didn't market phones with unlimited data. If there ever came a day when we pay by the GB then this would be a real reason to be concerned about bandwidth.

I think that was the point behind what was said though. If apps and OS continue to suck up bandwidth willy nilly always getting the most it can, then the carriers could very well decide they need to charge more for their service or discontinue certain brands of smartphones.

[Ghostnyc]

Are there any crackberry members from European or Asian Markets, does Orange, Deutsch, DoCoMo charge by MB/GB?

Its as if North American carriers are looking for any excuse to squeeze more money out of the consumers. Bandwidth issues seem be a manufactured crisis. Smartphones evolving at a steady rate, unlimited data plans being offered and when consumers take advantage of what is offered it becomes a problem. Now carriers are reluctant to upgrade their networks to maintain services that they agreed to provide.

U.S network capacity is decades behind networks overseas. Lazaridis comments seem not only out of tune with the actual data of what is out there, but also out of tune with the American consumer.

[thebignewt]

Hey, try using an iPhone at an NFL football game why don't you. You'll experience a "bandwidth problem" lol! ATT, you'd better build some more towers if you want to be a bada#s around here.

[BergerKing]

Not just towers, but capability of serving those towers. Extra towers aren't gonna help much if you cannot process the additional flow of data coming from those towers.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Mistik]

I am with T-mobile the Netherlands and data is unlimited with BIS but there are speed limitations and speed reduction of you come above a certain amount of usage.

[Ghostnyc]

I am with T-mobile the Netherlands and data is unlimited with BIS but there are speed limitations and speed reduction of you come above a certain amount of usage.

Mistik- what are your normal speeds? speed limits? Because currently in the States TMO is just releasing 3G (downloads speed 2mbps), AT&T and VZE are operating in the 7.2mbps ranges...

(TMO claims to be releasing HSDPA+ with downloads 21mbps soon)

[JRSCCivic98]

I was just going to post the same thing...

RIM’s Mike Lazaridis wants manufacturers to limit your data usage � Boy Genius Report

Mike's stuck in the past! He's a concerned dumbass who doesn't know what consumers what. There, I said it! Mobile devices should be able to provide the same user experience we receive with Netbooks by now, anyone with a network that can't provide this simply didn't plan for where the future is taking us. Mike's playing the "I'm in my comfort zone from the 90's" and doesn't want to change with the times... or is rather disgruntled with having to change. We see this every day with the lame *** "pagers" we get released with the Blackberry logo on them.

The time for change is NOW Mike! Get off your fat *** and change with it. You might have been a smart cookie back when you started RIM, but you're stuck in the slow lane with your products and people are honking and driving around you.

Also, he's making a big deal out of the bandwidth thing because this IS one of the "key" selling feature of the Blackberry product line. If they can continue to get everyone to think that bandwidth concern is a major problem that affects everyone (as apposed to slowly developed carrier networks), then they can continue to sell you antiquated products and services that give you a "cut down" version of what a "true" smartphone experience should be. Don't kid yourself, Mike's not stupid when it comes to bending your viewpoint to sell you on an idea... he's a SALES GUY... plain and simple.

[papped]

What? A CEO promoting their own products? How absurd...

[Xopher]

I think Mike was spot-on. It doesn't matter what bandwidth usage the BB or other smartphones consume. The rate that people are switching to smartphones is consuming much more of the bandwidth than ever before.

Look at San Fransisco and New York. AT&T networks are overloaded already. iPhones drop calls left and right. If I remember correctly, one iPhone data connection uses the same network traffic as ten phone calls (so, one iPhone is like making ten calls at once). This is probably why Verizon passed on the iPhone the first time around.

It's not up to RIM to create better BlackBerry devices. It's up to the carriers to upgrade their networks to handle the increased capacity. Carrier's love BlackBerrys since they do use less data to do some of the same things that other devices can do. The trick is to balance consumer needs and wants with their relationships with carriers.

It's not about turning the BlackBerry into a netbook (you can get a 5GB data card for your netbook, as long as you know how much data you'll use each month, and how much extra data will cost). More and more features are coming out all the time. Last time I checked, it was almost double the price to get your netbook using carrier networks with limited data access. I know a few people who hit their 5GB limit each month on their laptops. I can't think of anyone I know who has ever hit 5GB on their BlackBerry.

[Ghostnyc]

I was just going to post the same thing...

RIM’s Mike Lazaridis wants manufacturers to limit your data usage � Boy Genius Report

Mike's stuck in the past! He's a concerned dumbass who doesn't know what consumers what. There, I said it! Mobile devices should be able to provide the same user experience we receive with Netbooks by now, anyone with a network that can't provide this simply didn't plan for where the future is taking us. Mike's playing the "I'm in my comfort zone from the 90's" and doesn't want to change with the times... or is rather disgruntled with having to change. We see this every day with the lame *** "pagers" we get released with the Blackberry logo on them.

The time for change is NOW Mike! Get off your fat *** and change with it. You might have been a smart cookie back when you started RIM, but you're stuck in the slow lane with your products and people are honking and driving around you.

Also, he's making a big deal out of the bandwidth thing because this IS one of the "key" selling feature of the Blackberry product line. If they can continue to get everyone to think that bandwidth concern is a major problem that affects everyone (as apposed to slowly developed carrier networks), then they can continue to sell you antiquated products and services that give you a "cut down" version of what a "true" smartphone experience should be. Don't kid yourself, Mike's not stupid when it comes to bending your viewpoint to sell you on an idea... he's a SALES GUY... plain and simple.

Also is Lazaridis aware of what RIM is doing as of 2007 because they have been pushing very hard into the consumer market, app world, webkit browser and additional media apps...and he's talking bandwidth crisis?? Does he attend his own company strategy meetings?

[papped]

Also is Lazaridis aware of what RIM is doing as of 2007 because they have been pushing very hard into the consumer market, app world, webkit browser and additional media apps...and he's taking bandwidth crisis?? Does he attend his own company strategy meetings?

All things that other platforms do as well, with the exception of server push and huge data compression.

So they are still using far less bandwidth than constantly polling phones that basically don't compress the data at all. Which is the whole reason he stated that Mike was promoting his own products with those responses...

[Ghostnyc]

All things that other platforms do as well, with the exception of server push and huge data compression.

So they are still using far less bandwidth than constantly polling phones that basically don't compress the data at all. Which is the whole reason he stated that Mike was promoting his own products with those responses...

You understood him to be promoting his products, the great majority of people, including myself are reading his comments as a promotion of data caps and pay per MB/GB rates, which is what VZE has been very vocal about.

[JRSCCivic98]

You understood him to be promoting his products, the great majority of people, including myself are reading his comments as a promotion of data caps and pay per MB/GB rates, which is what VZE has been very vocal about.

Well, obviously, anything RIM or the people that represent RIM will always cower and kiss the carrier's butts. Mike is the biggest supporter of carrier rim jobs. He will do whatever a carrier asks him and his company to do.

But, the major viewpoint here is that he's seeing pressure from other mobile companies and he's playing both sides of the deck now. He's all about supporting the carrier's needs for bandwidth concern, while also making it well known that his products are so much better then the competitors products because they don't consume much data. (The only really big selling point they still have a good hold on.) Why do you think RIM was patenting the new Proxy based compression technique/software just a few weeks ago? They are doing everything they can to maintain that "Dumb Terminal" idea that has become the Blackberry and RIM backend network. RIM have basically built a private WAN with encapsulated VPN tunnels between themselves and everyone of their carrier partners as well as BES customers. A lot of people don't see this... they think a Blackberry is just like all the other smartphones out there and it's not. If RIM goes bye bye tomorrow, everyone is left out in the cold holding their BB with nothing more then just voice support and nothing else.

[papped]

I'm pretty sure quite a few BB owners recognize that without server backends the phones won't do anything... Especially since the consumer push hasn't even been around that long.

Nor do I see people caring about that, or stopping purchases for that reason.

[JRSCCivic98]

I'm pretty sure quite a few BB owners recognize that without server backends the phones won't do anything... Especially since the consumer push hasn't even been around that long.

Nor do I see people caring about that, or stopping purchases for that reason.

You'd be surprised how many don't know it. It's not until their first data outage that they get hit with reality. However, I will say that the group that doesn't know this is the same group that doesn't really research phones much... it's the group that buys a BB because it's what their friends use or because it's what their work supports.

This same group calls the admin when their email doesn't work all of a sudden on it or they show up on here asking why their data services don't work, completely overlooking the other 50 threads already started about a data outage when it happens.

[Skeevecr]

I think that was the point behind what was said though. If apps and OS continue to suck up bandwidth willy nilly always getting the most it can, then the carriers could very well decide they need to charge more for their service or discontinue certain brands of smartphones.

It's not just about carriers charging more either, as more people move to smartphones the overall demand for bandwidth just keeps going up and there are both technical and financial reasons why carriers won't be able to keep up with that demand (see new york now for example) so it just makes sense to try and make the best and most efficient use of the bandwidth so you can keep doing more and more for longer.

[Skeevecr]

Are there any crackberry members from European or Asian Markets, does Orange, Deutsch, DoCoMo charge by MB/GB?

Actually, while the 3g coverage in europe is vastly superior, there are plenty of carriers with capped data plans over here e.g. just do a search for mobile broadband in the uk and you will see that they mostly come with a few gigs of data allowance per month.

Its as if North American carriers are looking for any excuse to squeeze more money out of the consumers. Bandwidth issues seem be a manufactured crisis. Smartphones evolving at a steady rate, unlimited data plans being offered and when consumers take advantage of what is offered it becomes a problem. Now carriers are reluctant to upgrade their networks to maintain services that they agreed to provide.

U.S network capacity is decades behind networks overseas. Lazaridis comments seem not only out of tune with the actual data of what is out there, but also out of tune with the American consumer.

This isn't particularly about trying to squeeze more money out of people although obviously that is always at least a secondary concern in everything they do, its about trying to keep things working while demand continues to increase.

The american consumer still thinks that an SUV is a suitable car to pop down to the shops as well, so bandwidth being a finite resource is simply one more thing that they need to learn.

In order to get 7.2mb/s out of the devices that currently support that, you would need to be very close to a 3g cell and be the only user on it at the time, so not the most realistic of scenarios and even when theoretical speeds increase that is still the sort of situation required to get those speeds.

[R1cE]

This guy is over-stepping his authority. He has no say in how we use our data. I use all the damn data I want! It is my carrier's responsibility to keep their network up to speed with our usage! Were not here to bow before our services. They should be bowing for us and making every accommodation for us. Hence their name "Service."

[Go Blue]

Ever think these comments are aimed at justifying charging by the mb / gb ?

Let' see, voice usage (per customer) has been on the decline for a couple of years. Texting is the new communications norm and unlimited text packages are generating little revenue. We are on the cusp of widely available VoIP from the mobile device, so pay-fer voice goes down even more.

How 'bout we create this image of bandwidth as a constrained resource? Law of supply and demand dictates that a constrained resource goes up in price.

So -- we've been giving you unlimited data plans, then we capped them at 5 GB (a threshold almost *no one* hits so few complaints) to introduce the notion of "capped unlimited" -- then we come along and say we're bandwidth constrained so we're gonna have to start charging you for what used to be "free" -- or at least pay-per-use for what was included in a package.

Sounds like a strategic marketing plan for increased revenues to me.

[Skeevecr]

This guy is over-stepping his authority. He has no say in how we use our data. I use all the damn data I want! It is my carrier's responsibility to keep their network up to speed with our usage! Were not here to bow before our services. They should be bowing for us and making every accommodation for us. Hence their name "Service."

For everyone to have the max speed their device supports you would need an entire cell's capacity per person, try and find a way that's financially viable for any company and even if they were inclined to try that, certainly in a lot of countries people simply don't want to see a lot more mobile phone masts being built.

[Skeevecr]

How 'bout we create this image of bandwidth as a constrained resource? Law of supply and demand dictates that a constrained resource goes up in price.

If you don't think that bandwidth is a finite resource then you have clearly bought into the idea of unlimited data usage a bit too much.

So -- we've been giving you unlimited data plans, then we capped them at 5 GB (a threshold almost *no one* hits so few complaints) to introduce the notion of "capped unlimited" -- then we come along and say we're bandwidth constrained so we're gonna have to start charging you for what used to be "free" -- or at least pay-per-use for what was included in a package.

Sounds like a strategic marketing plan for increased revenues to me.

Clearly the carriers want to increase revenue, they are businesses after all, but that doesn't change facts like more and more people are buying smartphones and that as people learn more about the stuff they can do that their data usage tends to increase till eventually the carriers can't keep expanding capacity, see at&t in new york now for example.

[JRSCCivic98]

Trust me, he's selling you on the "Blackberry is better because we don't hog bandwidth" idea, nothing more.

Yes, there is a bandwidth issues, there ALWAYS has been. Sit back and ask yourself this... what happens to even simple phone calls when something big happens? New Years, earthquakes, other disasters in certain areas... what happens? You can't make a single call... because the networks are saturated. Network saturation has been an issue for as long as the carrier networks have been in use. The issue is still there and it'll continue to be there. Bandwidth management for smartphones IS NOT going to fix the issue. The problem is that the carriers have OVERSUBSCRIBED their networks by A VERY LARGE MARGIN and their gamble is that not everyone will use their devices at the same time. If you ask me, that's one heck of a gamble.... more like Russian Roulette.