10-01-09 06:54 AM
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  1. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Oh yeah, just noticed this.

    Like I said, this change does NOTHING to detriment current users, and only would benefit them. I really, REALLY want to hear the reason why people oppose this change.
    Lets see. A lot of people here oppose the change. What are the odds that outside of this board the result might be somewhat similar?

    Your "obvious" benefit to everyone doesn't seem to play out, unless you think the whole world is mad and that's all there is to it. Even if your suggestion was an assumed tremendous benefit, if the majority doesn't want it, nobody cares (including RIM).
    And then here's the part where he adequately and definitively explains why he and others people oppose the change.

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    08-12-09 12:11 AM
  2. larrygump's Avatar
    I jump around phones ALOT and it does take some getting used to coming and going from the BB keys
    08-12-09 08:59 AM
  3. Devlyn16's Avatar
    This thread makes me think of an American and Britt sitting in a pub each trying to convince the other that their nation drives on the wrong side of the road, and if they would just switch then the world would be a better place.


    The reality is IF an american goes to London he needs to drive on the left side of the road. If an englishman comes to New York he needs to drive on the right.
    08-12-09 09:29 AM
  4. dragonsamus's Avatar
    You can always press alt + left shift for number lock.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-12-09 11:55 AM
  5. Radius's Avatar
    Another thing about the bottom row, why does "0" get it's own dedicated key? 1-9 are alt keys, but for some reason, the infrequent "0" gets its own key? C'mon RIM, at least stay consistent and make all numeric keys alt keys and let the 0 key be a punctuation mark. What really confuses me is the 2 shift keys. Does anyone even use the right shift key on their desktop? I won't be hitting any keys marked "aA" in the near future.
    It is not inconsistent unless you want it to be. When I type a lot of numbers I just hold ALT while I type them, even zero.

    I suspect the $ key is a trade off, they wanted easy access to a speakerphone function but it is not really intuitive to map that with a regular key. Maybe some other form of punctuation but really the most common ones are already there.

    Overall it is a well laid out keyboard, but I can't agree with mapping regular characters to ALT buttons, even for Q or X. That would be extremely disruptive when typing a sentence.
    08-12-09 12:14 PM
  6. papped's Avatar
    Oh yeah, just noticed this.

    And then here's the part where he adequately and definitively explains why he and others people oppose the change.

    I oppose the change because it's communist, just like you. duh. Let other people explain why they think your ideas come from monkeys. They don't need me speaking for them.

    Most importantly: Are your ideas going to be implemented? Otherwise who cares.
    Last edited by papped; 08-12-09 at 12:36 PM.
    08-12-09 12:33 PM
  7. Radius's Avatar
    I don't see any need for change as it is intuitive as is. What other keys are useful anyhow? I can navigate extremely quickly at all times and type as well.

    No need for keys to access built in apps because I have dial from home screen turned off and just use keyboard shortcuts. Problem solved.

    Replacing the $ key with something else though, I think perhaps putting the period there is a good idea. I never use the double tap space thingy because I hate it, I just manually type a period. In fact, I use shift to capitalize the first letter of a sentence too even though I do not need to.

    All that and I can still type blazing fast.
    08-12-09 12:39 PM
  8. papped's Avatar
    That and what's the point in sitting around talking about it in this thread if you know how to send an email to RIM?

    Last I checked they take suggestions. If it's as intuitive and as much of a benefit to mankind as you claim it is, I would expect it to be implemented within the next 2 BB releases or so.

    You could do this:
    http://forums.crackberry.com/f83/off...thread-101934/

    Or you can sit around arguing in a thread pointlessly.
    Last edited by papped; 08-12-09 at 12:50 PM.
    08-12-09 12:47 PM
  9. Radius's Avatar
    I'm not arguing, I'm forcefully delivering opinions.
    08-12-09 12:55 PM
  10. papped's Avatar
    I'm not arguing, I'm forcefully delivering opinions.
    Wasn't directed at you.

    Forcefully is the way to do it anyways though =P
    08-12-09 01:03 PM
  11. Radius's Avatar
    Wasn't directed at you.

    Forcefully is the way to do it anyways though =P
    I know, I just love being part of something though.
    08-12-09 01:15 PM
  12. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    It is not inconsistent unless you want it to be. When I type a lot of numbers I just hold ALT while I type them, even zero.
    Umm, yeah, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. It's intuition. "If I have to press alt for numbers 1-9, then I would probably need to press alt for 0 as well." Most people (an understatement) already do this; because, well, most people are logical and creatures of habit, so when they reason that alt is required for 1-9, they get used to it and assume that 0 is also an alt key. If this is the case, then why not map a different primary character to the 0 key?

    I suspect the $ key is a trade off, they wanted easy access to a speakerphone function but it is not really intuitive to map that with a regular key. Maybe some other form of punctuation but really the most common ones are already there.
    Hold up, are you saying that RIM dedicated a primary $ key because people don't associate the speakerphone function with a period? Do you associate turning on the speakerphone with a units of currency?!? I'm not sure whether this is a serious response or you're trolling (10/10 if that's the case).

    Overall it is a well laid out keyboard, but I can't agree with mapping regular characters to ALT buttons, even for Q or X. That would be extremely disruptive when typing a sentence.
    I can't agree with mapping regular characters to ALT buttons, even for Q or X. That would be extremely disruptive when typing a sentence.
    I can't agree with mapping regular characters to ALT buttons, even for Q or X.


    Am I the only one seeing this? Did anyone else read what he wrote?

    I'm going to overlook the obvious for a second and focus on the argument you presented. This is my counter.

    I can't agree with mapping regular characters to ALT buttons, even for period or comma. That would be extremely disruptive when typing a sentence.
    Last edited by ArcticSilver5; 08-12-09 at 11:25 PM. Reason: Perhaps my tone was a bit harsh.
    08-12-09 08:35 PM
  13. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    That and what's the point in sitting around talking about it in this thread if you know how to send an email to RIM?

    Last I checked they take suggestions. If it's as intuitive and as much of a benefit to mankind as you claim it is, I would expect it to be implemented within the next 2 BB releases or so.

    You could do this:
    http://forums.crackberry.com/f83/off...thread-101934/

    Or you can sit around arguing in a thread pointlessly.
    I did. I linked this thread too. I'm probably going to start a thread on every BB forum, not just CB.
    08-12-09 08:38 PM
  14. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    I oppose the change because it's communist, just like you. duh. Let other people explain why they think your ideas come from monkeys. They don't need me speaking for them.

    Most importantly: Are your ideas going to be implemented? Otherwise who cares.
    YOU OPPOSE THE CHANGE BECAUSE IT'S COMMUNIST!?! I wish your post count weren't so high, this would be a lot easier (it's actually pretty easy, it's just difficult trying to open a narrow mind).
    Let other people explain why they think your ideas come from monkeys. They don't need me speaking for them.

    They... don't... need... ARE YOU SERIOUS?! I'm not asking you to speak for the BB community. I'm asking you to speak for yourself (for once) and NOT follow the BB community. You understand that by blindly following a majority, you AREN'T EVEN SPEAKING FOR YOURSELF? I'll let that stew a bit before it sinks in.
    Most importantly: Are your ideas going to be implemented? Otherwise who cares.
    So you're saying this is what should happen.

    1. Consumer purchases product.
    2. Consumer uses product.
    3. Consumer experiences problems with product.
    3a. Consumer complains to company using logic and requests an explanation for why the company purposely and continuously denies this logic and provides no reasoning.
    4. Consumer turns out to be an ***** whose opinion doesn't matter.
    5. Consumer dies, company makes money and endorses a pissing contest on the consumer's grave the 1st Monday of every month as a promo.
    Most importantly: Are your ideas going to be implemented? Otherwise who cares.
    You're right, my opinion is as irrelevant as yours. Oh wait, you're saying my opinion is MORE IRRELEVANT THAN YOURS? Well Mr. Universe, could you bring your ego around my car tires? They need some inflating.
    08-12-09 08:49 PM
  15. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    This thread makes me think of an American and Britt sitting in a pub each trying to convince the other that their nation drives on the wrong side of the road, and if they would just switch then the world would be a better place.
    Argh, don't even get me started on this. Ok, I can't control myself, but I'll keep it brief.

    1. Most people are right-handed
    2. Because of the different motions used by the steering hand and the shifting hand, whichever handedness a person exhibits should be their shifting hand. The other hand should be their steering hand.
    3. For most people, this means steering with their left hand and shifting with their right hand is preferred. The inverse is true for left-handed people.
    4. Brits originated left lane traffic in the middle ages and everyone followed suit. Well, people started thinking for themselves and realized that fewer accidents would occur if everyone drove on the right side, and that it was easier for right-handed people to drive on the right side and if they had a left-seat.


    The reality is IF an american goes to London he needs to drive on the left side of the road. If an englishman comes to New York he needs to drive on the right.
    Right lane driving is supported by objective scientific evidence. Left lane driving is supported by antiquated customs.

    Didn't Draco Malfoy learn to ride a broom wrong his whole life? Does the fact he did it his whole life make it right? Maybe this comparison wasn't serious enough, but I stopped taking this thread seriously when people stopped giving any reason other than "I don't want it, I won't tell you why."

    Did you know that Japanese people drive on the left as well? Do you want to know why?

    Sorry, for some reason, I take arbitrary inefficiency personally. Why should I be made to suffer for no reason if I don't gain anything from it? Why should I be made to suffer if NO ONE gains anything from it? And of course: why should ANYONE be made to suffer if no one gains from it?
    08-12-09 09:06 PM
  16. saejosh's Avatar
    once you get used to it you will love the lay out of things
    08-12-09 09:12 PM
  17. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    once you get used to it you will love the lay out of things
    I am used to it. It's not it I don't like. It's the fact that it is not consistent throughout the phone. It's the fact that when I type an email address in an email, I have to space + space + delete, or alt + m, but press space when in an email field (I have to stop, briefly consider the appropriate option, instead of using muscle memory to press a button before I even think to do so, like on other phones). It's that on all other phones and computers and every other QWERTY keyboard in the world, I just press the period key.

    What if I told you that I'm changing the standard BB layout of punctuation, and replacing it with a less efficient standard QWERTY layout punctuation? Would you be happy? Would you acquiesce? Would you not care? Would your efficiency remain the same?

    If you said yes, then you don't care and I can have my cake and eat it too because it doesn't hurt you in anyway. If you said no, replace the words "BB" and "QWERTY" in the previous paragraph and please post the product. Are my Sperrys comfortable?
    08-12-09 10:01 PM
  18. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Lets see. A lot of people here oppose the change. What are the odds that outside of this board the result might be somewhat similar?

    Your "obvious" benefit to everyone doesn't seem to play out, unless you think the whole world is mad and that's all there is to it. Even if your suggestion was an assumed tremendous benefit, if the majority doesn't want it, nobody cares (including RIM).
    I hate that I don't catch errors in arguments immediately. It takes me a re-read or two. 5... 4... 3... 2...

    "...if the majority..."

    Hold the phone, Stallone. Did you know that the BB keyboard is the ONLY QWERTY keyboard without a dedicated period key, right? YOU are in the minority, and by far. Since the BB is the only one that differs, I could name any brand, Treo, Samsung, SE, etc, that has a major business following business users. Also, because EVERY OTHER PHONE HAS IT, so any company that doesn't have the words "research," "in," and "motion" in the title would serve my purpose. So why don't you and the lack of evidence, proof, or perspective direction in your argument stop for a second. Read all my posts. Pick out a part that makes me look bad. Show it to me. Criticize me for being wrong. If you don't do this, I'll take it as nothing short of an admission of your inferiority. Please, PLEASE prove me wrong IN ANY ASPECT (except for restraint and modesty, of which I have none). Do I need to put some money on the line (I kid, I kid)?

    For the sake of your argument, here's the last non-BB QWERTY keyboard to not feature a dedicated period key: Commodore PET 2001-32-N. It was released in 1978. Google "Commodore PET 2001-32-N period key"

    What's the running thread that connects all of the search results? (HINT: It has something to do with a list of the 10 worst keyboard of all time)
    08-12-09 10:40 PM
  19. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Ok, I asked some mods for their $0.02 (I was pressing alt the whole time too, you bistards). Either this thread is will be deleted and I'm permabanned, or a 9500 of shat is brewing and about to be unleashed.

    Emailed the RIM's general help dept, but I hope they can patch me through to R&D. If they respond, and allow me to keep everyone updated, you'll get the unaltered emails.
    Last edited by ArcticSilver5; 08-12-09 at 11:28 PM.
    08-12-09 11:14 PM
  20. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Here's from a PM discussion I had with another member regarding the keyboard. Fortunately, he didn't just yell "I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE" over and over. Mucho gracias to amazinglygraceless for his civility and taking the time to respond (in depth) to a new member who hasn't seen it all yet.

    Basically it is a speed thing for me. My department
    is Human Services, when I am out in the field trying
    to say place an apartment building of people that
    got burned out into emergency housing, speed
    counts.

    As to the numbers I have autotexts set up for those:
    ww=1, ee=2, rr=3, etc so I never have to hit alt.
    For $1068 i'd type $+ww+0+ff+xx

    Either that or toggle the NUM lock on and off.
    oh snap. Took 3 pages of comments and a few thousand words exchanged before anyone gave me a reason. Do you mind if I post this to the thread?

    I still believe strongly that you would benefit from alt. Think about it. The only reason you set up autotexts is because you are accustomed to a dedicated $ key. In all honesty, do you truly believe that the your method is faster than the alternative? (1) alt + $ + 1 + 0 + 6 + 8 is only 6 key presses, 5 for me. Since alt and $ are pressed simultaneously by both thumbs, so it's the same amount of finger movements. You end up pressing two fewer buttons to get the same result ($ + w + w + 0 + f + f + x + x). The effect is more dramatic on larger numbers or decimals. Regarding decimals, I'd leave the spkr key as is, so that while typing and not on a phone call, you could keep your finger on alt the entire time and not need to worry about the alt symbol on the period key (it would still yield a period, as the spkr function doesn't do anything outside a phone call, right?). (2) Also, I'm assuming you have to toggle on and off autotexting. Otherwise, how else would you write words like knee, need, free, addict, account, occurred, off, offer, mass, jazzy (my personal favorite), and other words that use two consecutive letters that have alt numbers? Don't tell me you have to slow down, input and delete a space, or toggle autotext on/off everytime, because this definitely slows you down more than holding a single key that would help you type faster overall given reasons (1) and (2).

    Please understand that I am not criticizing you personally, as I sure you've put a lot of work into discovering and implementing these workarounds. You know that every other phone has a period key, right? Is there anyone in your office who uses one of these normal keyboards? Ask them about what workarounds they need to implement to achieve the greatest speed. I sure didn't need any on my BJ2.

    You see, this is exactly what I wish would happen on the thread. You give a reason, I try it out to see if it's a feasible and functional alternative. I give my take on it and see if you accept or deny it. I still think I'm right.
    I still think I'm right, but I don't have any empirical support on my claim that alt + etc would actually be faster for him. I mean, when I use his method, double-tapping definitely slows me down. Working in a cancer research lab, specifically tumor imaging with contrast agents, all my numerical data regards wavelengths and long strings with precise values past the decimal point (concentrations, ODs, retention time, dilution ratios, contrast ratios, usually more than 6 consecutive numbers with a decimal/slash/colon somewhere in there). Surely, the more consecutive numbers you type, the less effective autotexting becomes. I'm not really on a time-restraint like amazinglygraceless (though I should stop using my 8900's keyboard as an excuse for late replies :P).
    Last edited by ArcticSilver5; 08-13-09 at 01:08 AM.
    08-13-09 01:03 AM
  21. amazinglygraceless's Avatar
    Yeah, ArcticS, if my calculations needed to be as precise as yours
    I'd rethink the whole autotext thing. However, for me at least, the
    way my job works it's a good solution. It may seem cumbersome
    at first blush but it really is no slower than pressing space 2x to
    get a period. And the more you do it, it becomes second nature.

    And I might as well address it here as well, words with
    consecutive letters type fine as autotexts are absolutes.
    If I type "ee" I get "2". If I type knees, i get knees as it does not
    match the autotext.

    And yes my staff and coworkers have to go through less work
    since I dumped almost all of almost 300 BBs and replaced them
    with 3 different Nokia devices.
    08-13-09 01:27 AM
  22. Radius's Avatar
    I think you are coming at this without thinking about the layout specifically. First of all, the keyboard is small, I know quite a few of us tap keys that are near others sometimes.

    So going back to the currency key first, it makes sense why it is there and has something like a speaker phone button on it. Being next to ENTER, that key becomes protected. Enter can have different effects depending on the application. Best case it puts a new line character, worst case it transmits data in an I'm program.

    So from that standpoint, having a key you often do not use acting as a buffer is a good thing.

    Now on to zero. You mention adding a primary key to it. Again, the layout suggests otherwise. What can you add? Let's say zero is consistent with the other numbers and now needs ALT exclusively, what can go under it? All other primary keys are letters, or single functions primarily aimed at editing after a fashion like ENTER, backspace, shift, etc.

    I can't really think of anything else that can be considered primary that fits the bill. Nothing else is really used for typing all that commonly. At least on these devices.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-13-09 01:40 AM
  23. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Ughh, E-series keypads... I love the E5x bars and E6x sliders, but why would you put the "z" directly under the "a" on a QWERTY? How'd your team deal with that transition?
    Yeah, ArcticS, if my calculations needed to be as precise as yours
    I'd rethink the whole autotext thing. However, for me at least, the
    way my job works it's a good solution. It may seem cumbersome
    at first blush but it really is no slower than pressing space 2x to
    get a period. And the more you do it, it becomes second nature.

    And I might as well address it here as well, words with
    consecutive letters type fine as autotexts are absolutes.
    If I type "ee" I get "2". If I type knees, i get knees as it does not
    match the autotext.

    And yes my staff and coworkers have to go through less work
    since I dumped almost all of almost 300 BBs and replaced them
    with 3 different Nokia devices.
    I imagine Asus employees would detest autotext, especially in their mobile computing sector.
    08-13-09 01:44 AM
  24. Radius's Avatar
    I am used to it. It's not it I don't like. It's the fact that it is not consistent throughout the phone. It's the fact that when I type an email address in an email, I have to space + space + delete, or alt + m, but press space when in an email field (I have to stop, briefly consider the appropriate option, instead of using muscle memory to press a button before I even think to do so, like on other phones). It's that on all other phones and computers and every other QWERTY keyboard in the world, I just press the period key.
    I am actually upset that the space key ever does anything but make spaces. If it was in the options to disable all other functionality I would do so. It is so simple to just use the ALT key it is something we don't even have to think about.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-13-09 01:53 AM
  25. amazinglygraceless's Avatar
    Ughh, E-series keypads... I love the E5x bars and E6x sliders, but why would you put the "z" directly under the "a" on a QWERTY? How'd your team deal with that transition?.
    Not one single complaint. They are happy. IT is happy. And consequently I
    am happy.

    We Went with the E71x, N97 and a few E63s
    08-13-09 02:01 AM
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