10-01-09 06:54 AM
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  1. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Coming from a Blackjack II, I can am confident in saying that RIM is just as bad as Lenovo in regard to key placement.

    Yes, if you place the "Fn" key on the outside corner and the "Ctrl" key on the inside, the "Ctrl" key will be closer to your pinkie. But Lenovo, this has nothing to do with whether it's more convenient or intuitive. Anyone who uses a desktop won't be able to smoothly transition between the two. Users may get used to this layout after a week, but they won't be able to comfortably use other keyboards (a Lenovo business tactic, I'm sure).


    The BJII has a near-perfect keyboard. The Shift key is all the way on the outside, so your thumb can blindly approach the keys and the first one it touches will be Shift, useful when you are typing and will have your eye on the letter you want capitalized.

    Since I don't notice any difference between space-bar sizes, the smallest one can fit the bill. This allows for more buttons, always a good thing with QWERTY.

    Most importantly, I don't see the purpose of dedicating the $ key. Almost 24 hours, 50+ text/emails, and I've yet to press the $ key (except on accident, thinking it was the period key). Even Samsung's blatantly response to RIM, the Blackjack, is able to dedicate period and comma keys.

    "HAR HAR HAR, you just have to double-space to period."

    NO, I don't have to double space to period. WM devices also added this for periods, but I CHOSE not to use it, as I desire my typing experience to resemble an actual keyboard as much as possible. Do you double space on your desktop too?

    Seriously RIM, add more buttons to the bottom row (didn't AT&T add more two 4th row buttons to the original Blackjack?), shrink the space bar, and dedicate ANY punctuation marks (I actually use "Q" and "X" less than I use a period or comma, why don't you make "Q" and "X" alt keys as well ). I had no problem remapping the dedicated AT&T keys on my Blackjack II to bring up my Task Manager and Applications folder, but I AM having a problem remapping the $ key to a period.




    Pictures were cropped from IntoMobile and TeleNav Blog
    Last edited by ArcticSilver5; 08-07-09 at 10:58 AM.
    08-07-09 10:45 AM
  2. papped's Avatar
    Trading off what BB users are used to for what some other smartphone users are used to wouldn't make sense.

    BB os doesn't realy need a CV or email key either, considering Messages is always in the task manager.
    Last edited by papped; 08-07-09 at 11:05 AM.
    08-07-09 11:03 AM
  3. cavingjan's Avatar
    It won't take long for you to get used to and then you'll realize just how uncomfortable those bottom outer corner keys were on your old phone. You'll also find that those two "missing" keys provide very valuable space for comfortably holding the BB one handed without accidentally pressing a key. Trying to hold the phone under the space bar is just too awkward.
    08-07-09 11:15 AM
  4. Iceman0803's Avatar
    Why are you even using the shift key? you can capitalize a letter by holding it down. Just an fyi. As for the currency key i don't see a real need for that either but I can only speak for myself.
    08-07-09 11:20 AM
  5. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Trading off what BB users are used to for what some other smartphone users are used to wouldn't make sense.

    BB os doesn't realy need a CV or email key either, considering Messages is always in the task manager.
    Yes, but those keys were easily mapped. By easily I mean I looked up how, went in my registry, and replaced the necessary text with links to my applications and Task Manager.

    It won't take long for you to get used to and then you'll realize just how uncomfortable those bottom outer corner keys were on your old phone. You'll also find that those two "missing" keys provide very valuable space for comfortably holding the BB one handed without accidentally pressing a key. Trying to hold the phone under the space bar is just too awkward.
    What? Really? How do you hold your phone? My positioning feels very natural and the only part of my finger that touches the keys is the very tips of my thumbs. I really would never notice the difference in feel of the two corner buttons. Attached 2 pictures of how I hold my phone when typing. My thumbs never touch the phone unless they're about to type something, and that's only the fingertip.

    Why are you even using the shift key? you can capitalize a letter by holding it down. Just an fyi. As for the currency key i don't see a real need for that either but I can only speak for myself.
    Thanks for the tip! The problem is that I type fairly fast, and in the time I spend holding down to capitalize, I would have already hit 3 or 4 other keys. It's really a hindrance waiting. It takes zero time to hit the shift key, given TWO thumbs. I guess it's just natural for me to run my thumb along the left keys until I hit the last one. Maybe I'll get used to it.



    I hope no one misunderstands. I LOVE my new BB 8900. It's fast and does everything I need from a phone. However, because I'd like to keep coming back to RIM products, I definitely want to see some improvements made on the next phone. I'm sorry, but I just haven't heard ANY valid arguments for the keyboard that I couldn't dismiss in a second. The keyboard hardware quality is crap too. Why is it acceptable that the keyboard tray shifts 1 mm in every direction? Or that the Send/End keys cause the corners of the screen to warp? I wouldn't be complaining if I didn't want RIM to fix it for their next release.
    08-07-09 12:55 PM
  6. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Another thing about the bottom row, why does "0" get it's own dedicated key? 1-9 are alt keys, but for some reason, the infrequent "0" gets its own key? C'mon RIM, at least stay consistent and make all numeric keys alt keys and let the 0 key be a punctuation mark. What really confuses me is the 2 shift keys. Does anyone even use the right shift key on their desktop? I won't be hitting any keys marked "aA" in the near future.
    08-07-09 01:03 PM
  7. Pilot Prop's Avatar
    ....I love my Bold keyboard...I'm preety garsh darn fast/accurate too

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-07-09 01:06 PM
  8. Username00089's Avatar
    Another thing about the bottom row, why does "0" get it's own dedicated key? 1-9 are alt keys, but for some reason, the infrequent "0" gets its own key? C'mon RIM, at least stay consistent and make all numeric keys alt keys and let the 0 key be a punctuation mark. What really confuses me is the 2 shift keys. Does anyone even use the right shift key on their desktop? I won't be hitting any keys marked "aA" in the near future.
    Those of us who use lots of zero's after a number find it convinient.
    08-07-09 01:08 PM
  9. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    ....I love my Bold keyboard...I'm preety garsh darn fast/accurate too

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Same layout as the 8900. Have you tried a Blackjack II keyboard? The shape of the keys are a little better on the Samsung, but it doesn't really make a huge difference after a week of use.
    08-07-09 01:09 PM
  10. papped's Avatar
    Dedicated "0" works, since it gets used a lot.

    I'm sorry, but I just haven't heard ANY valid arguments for the keyboard that I couldn't dismiss in a second.
    That's just it though, you probably never will. You are sold on your stance so whatever people bring up is likely to be dismissed.
    I highly doubt that if most the people here used a BJ2 keyboard, they would claim it's better.

    Thanks for the tip! The problem is that I type fairly fast, and in the time I spend holding down to capitalize, I would have already hit 3 or 4 other keys. It's really a hindrance waiting.
    See this is another personal preference. A LOT of people prefer double tap/hold tap for alt/shift, etc. They have apps writen to provide this functionality to other OSes.

    As for spacebar size, a lot of customers do care and prefer a larger spacebar size. The n97 got dinged just recently for it's small spacebar.
    Last edited by papped; 08-07-09 at 01:20 PM.
    08-07-09 01:11 PM
  11. papped's Avatar
    NO, I don't have to double space to period. WM devices also added this for periods, but I CHOSE not to use it, as I desire my typing experience to resemble an actual keyboard as much as possible. Do you double space on your desktop too?
    Keyboards are 2handed use, have more keys, use different input methods, and are running a different OS entirely. I seriously doubt anyone cares if the input methods differ from that of a PC...
    08-07-09 01:19 PM
  12. NoahFecks's Avatar
    Does anyone even use the right shift key on their desktop?
    Ummm, standard typing on a desktop keyboard requires using both shift keys.

    Seems to me these issues are extremely trivial. Every company has their own idea on how things should be laid out and used, if every phone were exactly the same where would the competition be? So what if things are different than they are on another phone, you learn and get used to the new keyboard of a new phone, it's not the end of the world. I had the HTC/AT&T Fuze before I got my Bold and I was very used to the layout of that keyboard, obviously much more spacious and simple. I knew there would be a bit if a learning curve when switching to the BB but it didn't turn me off from buying it or make me want to pull my hair out because things are a bit different, I simply got used to it. Not that difficult to do and certainly not worth getting worked up over.

    Now, the hardware issues you have are a different story. The kb shouldn't be shifting at all, nor should a key press affect the screen. You could just have a defective unit, if it's still under warranty I would get it replaced.
    08-07-09 01:27 PM
  13. cavingjan's Avatar
    What? Really? How do you hold your phone? My positioning feels very natural and the only part of my finger that touches the keys is the very tips of my thumbs. I really would never notice the difference in feel of the two corner buttons. Attached 2 pictures of how I hold my phone when typing. My thumbs never touch the phone unless they're about to type something, and that's only the fingertip.
    Walking and using the phone one handed? - right thumb to the left of the capitalization button.
    Two handed? - held by the sides.

    I only use it two handed when I'm actually typing long messages. Its the same way I held my treo 700p before that. I've tried Blackjacks in the past and typing just felt odd.

    But this truly is a case of personal preference. Your opinion is no better or worse than mine. Just different.
    08-07-09 02:28 PM
  14. crackzilla's Avatar
    Give it time you will get used to it. It's all about personal preference. If I downgraded to an inferior device like the wackjack I would find much more monumental faults.
    08-07-09 03:09 PM
  15. Pilot Prop's Avatar
    Same layout as the 8900. Have you tried a Blackjack II keyboard? The shape of the keys are a little better on the Samsung, but it doesn't really make a huge difference after a week of use.
    Yea I've tried it...its just not for me

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-07-09 03:42 PM
  16. StrwBerryBlond's Avatar
    IMO because the BlackBerry was originally developed for business use the "0" and "$" key need to be dedicated. As a business user I do use these keys everyday. I love this feature & wouldn't want it any other way.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-07-09 05:20 PM
  17. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Yeah, you definitely sound right on that international business oriented keyboard. I just wish they made keymapping more convenient so people could have the right to choose.

    After a full 24 hours, I'm used to the keyboard, shift and all. I remember to alt + m everytime instead of opening the $ menu.

    I haven't seen a good argument because every defender of the keyboard ends up pushing for less freedom of choice. Yes, I understand the keyboard is designed this way, but if this alternate use doesn't affect regular use, why won't they include it?

    If you wanted to hold the key of a letter to capitalize, you definitely could. Just keep on doing what you're doing and I'll move the shift keys outside so I can locate them blind when I'm typing quickly. You can keep the $ key and its menu too! Just let me remap it in case I don't speak in dollar signs.

    And to address the build issues, even as a crackberry frequenter, you cannot deny the overflooding threads about the loose tray. I think one of the stickies in the 8900 forum regards disassembly and addresses the issue. The keypad does not fit perfectly into it's bezel and requires thin foam pads on the inside perimeter of the keypad enclosure. I understand the 2 mm depression of the trackball to click, so that it doesn't get damaged when the phone is face down.

    I am not arguing for everyone to adapt a standard or to emulate each other. It's the process of consumer selection. The better options get argued for and hopefully a company's technology improves by borrowing from greater influences. I don't want Blackberry to be more like Samsung or HTC or Apple, I want it to be better. Learn from what each has done right and try to implement it without alienating your original customer base. Those keypad changes I mentioned are a drop in the bucket of the things RIM could add without affecting current functionality for users who don't need the features.

    Honestly, would these things affect you? If these changes came about? It wouldn't benefit you naysayers, sure, but would it hurt your efficiency? Because without dedicated punctuation keys, my productivity drops. So what if it doesn't affect you either way? Why can't I argue for something that will help me at no one's expense?
    08-07-09 06:21 PM
  18. papped's Avatar
    You can keep the $ key and its menu too! Just let me remap it in case I don't speak in dollar signs.
    It's not like that kind of functionality is standard across the board though. For symbian you'd basically have to use magickey, which doesn't even work on s60v5.

    The same way you say those things are a drop in the bucket for improvements, there are 10 other things that would be more important across the board for users that would make a bigger impact.

    Threaded sms view for one. Forward + edit native for two. Keyboard is not one of the areas RIM gets dinged on (quite the opposite actually), so in theory it is far less of an issue.
    Last edited by papped; 08-07-09 at 06:27 PM.
    08-07-09 06:24 PM
  19. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    What? The most important improvements get fixed first? Why not a cost-benefit analysis?

    And to StrwBerryBlond, why would it matter if the 0 and $ are dedicated if you still need to press alt to get any numbers? Do you just use $ and 0? If this is the case, please forgive me, it is not my place to judge how little work you can get done with just $ and 0.

    How often do you use $ or 0 and NOT use another number? You still have to press alt to get a number, so why does it make a difference if you press the alt after you press $, because you HAVE to press it regardless.

    Like I said, this change does NOTHING to detriment current users, and only would benefit them. I really, REALLY want to hear the reason why people oppose this change. Please, ask every BB user why they wouldn't want this change and point them to my arguments, because I just don't see it. You still need to press alt to get a number other than 0, so why does it make a difference if you press alt before or after the $ key?

    I'm really annoyed that people are saying "this isn't an important change" or that "well, some people need dedicated $ and 0." Clearly, it doesn't make a difference to you and apparently you just like seeing me pissed off. And it DOESN'T affect people who need $ and 0. Again, UNLESS ALL YOU USE IS "$0", YOU NEED TO PRESS ALT TO GET A NUMBER SO WHY DOES IT MATTER TO YOU WHETHER YOU PRESS IT BEFORE OR AFTER AS LONG AS IT'S THE SAME NUMBER OF TIMES YOU PRESS IT?

    I don't want to start a flame war and I'm not trolling, but it just doesn't make sense how people can oppose this. It doesn't even feel like an argument at this point, I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious and people refuse to listen to reason. I'm going to keep repeating "UNLESS YOU ONLY USE $ AND 0, YOU STILL NEED TO PRESS ALT TO GET A NUMBER. WHY DOES IT MATTER TO YOU WHETHER YOU PRESS IT BEFORE THE $ OR AFTER AS LONG AS YOU STILL PRESS IT ONLY ONCE?"

    And don't get me started on whether or not they can change other things that make a bigger impact. This is more a revision than a change, since it doesn't detriment functionality for people who use dollar values above 0. Sure, it doesn't impact YOU, but how often do you type in emails? How often do you code? Because I use the period every time I turn the phone on and pressing alt + m is a hindrance.
    08-11-09 03:12 PM
  20. Kevin8503's Avatar
    Actually I've found myself double spacing on a computer for a period. Then I realize there's no period. And my heart is sad.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-11-09 03:15 PM
  21. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Actually I've found myself double spacing on a computer for a period. Then I realize there's no period. And my heart is sad.
    The worst is when you use a java app, like Opera or Bolt, and need to press two keys for every period.

    I've found that the fastest way to type an email outside of an email box is to double tap and hit delete, since it's only one finger and the left finger can get started on moving to the "c" or "e" of .com or .edu.
    08-11-09 03:36 PM
  22. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Actually I've found myself double spacing on a computer for a period. Then I realize there's no period. And my heart is sad.
    oh, I misread your comment. Lol, wouldn't you rather have an intuitive standard? I'm not recommending the same keyboard on every board, but if a QWERTY keyboard is used, then it should be nearly identical to the next qwerty. That's why BB opted for QWERTY, not DVORAK, because it's standard. I'm just confused why they didn't stay consistent.

    The only reason I can think of is the same reason why lenovo switches ctrl and fn, so users can't easily switch to another brand because they already have habits with BB that don't translate well. It's a pretty good business tactic, but if I call them out on it and they have no good reasons (much like in this forums), then they either have to admit to this tactic or change the keyboard. Neither is likely, but if no one does anything, we'd live in inefficiency forever.
    08-11-09 03:52 PM
  23. papped's Avatar
    What? The most important improvements get fixed first? Why not a cost-benefit analysis?
    You want to do a cost/benefit analysis on altering the hardware keyboard layout and functionality? It would then be different from prior BB's compared to newer ones.

    Sure it's easy to assume that's a worthwhile benefit based on cost to fix. Is that really true though?

    Like I said, this change does NOTHING to detriment current users, and only would benefit them. I really, REALLY want to hear the reason why people oppose this change.
    Lets see. A lot of people here oppose the change. What are the odds that outside of this board the result might be somewhat similar?

    Your "obvious" benefit to everyone doesn't seem to play out, unless you think the whole world is mad and that's all there is to it. Even if your suggestion was an assumed tremendous benefit, if the majority doesn't want it, nobody cares (including RIM).
    08-11-09 05:04 PM
  24. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Lets see. A lot of people here oppose the change. What are the odds that outside of this board the result might be somewhat similar?

    Your "obvious" benefit to everyone doesn't seem to play out, unless you think the whole world is mad and that's all there is to it. Even if your suggestion was an assumed tremendous benefit, if the majority doesn't want it, nobody cares (including RIM).
    Do you think this is an appropriate answer? You oppose the change because...

    ...well just because you say so? Give me a reason. Tell me specific details in which this would be a bad thing for YOU. I want an exact situation, give me the time of day, the weather conditions, what shoes you put on, what you had for breakfast, etc. No more vague "yeah, it's because I don't want to." Say "I don't want it because in this situation it would" yadda yadda yadda. This is why I'm still pushing for it and don't accept the fact that if the majority doesn't care (not that they don't want it, they just DON'T CARE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T AFFECT THEM), the minority should suffer.

    I've started to come around on the difficulty with remapping keys. Keylogging is a problem for corporate users and they'd prefer security over customization. I accept that. If keymapping were made easier, and users were given full knowledge of how the keyboard signals get translated into characters, it's not a far stretch to remote keylogging and a complete compromise of security. Of course, if RIM did this, then they should have included their own keymapping solution so users wouldn't need to snoop the firmware for leniency.

    If someone presented a similar argument (heck, ANY argument instead of vague, neophobic defensive mechanisms) for keeping a dedicated $ key, I'll shut up. "I don't want it because it's different, I automatically assume that anything different is wrong and I hate change because I'm old-fashioned and you can't change me with your 'progress' and 'innovation'" is bull****. If RIM followed that philosophy, the Pearl and entire Curve line wouldn't exist and you'd still be using trackwheels on your 7000-series phone.
    08-11-09 11:38 PM
  25. ArcticSilver5's Avatar
    Please, will someone form a committee, discuss the pros and cons of my proposal, and at least come up with a theory on why it would matter.

    Let me ask you this: do you have muscle memory for the $ key? Do you ever have to look for it when you touch type? I understand your position if you've been using the $ as much as you use the letter E, and you don't feel like changing the order in which you press $, alt, and numbers. If you had to press $ + alt + numbers, would it really make a difference if you instead pressed alt + $ + numbers!?!? Because it's the same number of buttons.

    Ok, so let's assume the default is that a period is dedicated. Would you argue "does it really make a difference if you press period instead of space + space (+ delete makes 3 presses if you're writing an email in text) or alt + m? It'd be a lot more efficient if I could press $ + alt + number in that order instead of alt + $ + number. The latter one is just confusing and I feel silly pressing the same amount of buttons in a different, albeit more logical, order."

    Are you one of those modern Amish? Who deny advancements in technology, science, and medicine because electricity is Satan's creation and have no evidence, proof, or even a hypothetical situation which would prove you right? I haven't even seen a hypothetical situation in which my proposal does anything but help. And no, I don't care that I'm the minority and you're the majority. If that's the case, screw business users, consumers prefer crappy 5 MP camera and full touch screens. Just get rid of buttons altogether and we'll all get BB storms. o.0
    08-12-09 12:06 AM
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